Poll: Subtitle positioning in wider ratio (2.20+) movies on Sony Blu-ray Discs

[Suntory_Times]

Originally Posted by Truewitt

Trust me, as Penton stated above, it would add significant cost. Production of the subtitles, authoring, QC. And nobody wants text subtitles...

How could adding a second subtitle track with the only difference bieng its position on screen possibly add significant costs? A small subtitle track that has already been done (eg, no one needs to retype it out as they watch the film) with just a different position, given for films that cost millions of dollars it could hardly be called a significant cost.

[canary_jules]

As the owner of a CIH home theater I vote for placing subtitles in active picture area at all times.

[patman]

I am a CIH user too.

Subtitle position in image area is really important for us.

A good solution for every body satisfaction would be to offer one of these capabilities :

- more subtitles streams for each language : one in image area, a second one below image (each subtitles stream is only a few hundred megabytes)

- enable subtitles positioning using an embedded java program

- let manufacturers add subtitle positioning code in their player firmware : Philips seems to have done this on a european model BDP9100 (not yet available)

Patrick.

[bajor27]

Where's the option to have the subtitles movable based on your preferences? Isn't something like that relatively easy to do with blu-ray?

[Eternal_Sunshine]

For those who miss other alternatives to vote for (movable subtitles, two sub streams – one inside the picture, one with one line in the black bar): please read the following posts from Penton and Jeff Kleist (from thedigitalbits):

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...postcount=9823

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=11

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...postcount=9840

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...postcount=9877

Short version: there will only be one, non-movable subtitle track (per language). Everything else is not going to happen due to either technical or financial reasons.

[dave99]

few family members like zooming. they get upset when subtitles are on the black bar. voted for the 1st option.

[ssweetimpalass]

constant image height - inside the film

[ClaytonMG]

I don't know if it's just me or if no one else cares... But I have a plasma and I know there's image retention when it comes to subtitles. If the subtitles are on a black bar for an extended period of time, that part of the bar becomes lighter than the rest of the bar. It seems like an odd reason to prefer to have them in the image, but I'd rather have them there because of that.

[Mobe1969]

I had to pick one, but I'd prefer the option of where. You can do it on blu rays. I'd prefer it all below honestly

[Spymaster]

I must state quite strongly that I don't see how this is a "choice" at all.

The purpose of blu-ray is to present a movie in the home as closely as possible to the way it was presented in the theatre.

If the theatrical presentation includes subtitles then they should be presented the same way on blu-ray. Same position, same size, same font - the exact same subtitles.

If we're talking about closed captions, or spanish/french/etc language tracks then that's another matter.

But the theatrical presentation should be preserved.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Spymaster

But the theatrical presentation should be preserved.

So IMAX? IMAX digital? 35MM? DLP?

Lossy audio?

Which "exact" presentation are we preserving?

[Spymaster]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

So IMAX? IMAX digital? 35MM? DLP?

Lossy audio?

Which "exact" presentation are we preserving?

We're preserving the subtitles the way they were originally designed for the movie. A good recent example - the new Transformers movie. The "Robot-English" captions are "typed" onto the screen in robot-speak and then over-typed in English. It's very cool. It's very stylish. It's PART of the style of the movie.

Frankly I don't want these arbitrarily replaced on blu-ray (or DVD) with plain, boring video captions under the picture - or something equally horrendous.

The pinnacle of this TERRIBLE trend was the first UK DVD of The Terminator. The opening scene-setting "Future War" text was replaced by player-generated captions at the bottom which TOTALLY destroyed the opening of that movie. That was the reason I pledged never to buy another R2 DVD unless it was absolutely necessarily, even though I live in R2. I've imported ALL of my movies for over 10 years now. I mean, what's next, the scrolling opening of Star Wars replaced by flashing white captions at the bottom?

Frankly this is a deal-breaker for me. A movie isn't definitive unless the captions are reproduced properly. It's part of the experience of watching FILM - just like the grain structure. I don't want VIDEO subtitles any more than I want VIDEO processing (DNR). I'm a little pissed off to hear that Gran Torino has been ruined. Warner - like Fox and Universal - have always had a good history of preserving subtitle integrity.

Terminator comments:
http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/s...d.php?t=315174

Complaints about - surprise, surprise - Columbia (Sony) back in the DVD days:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...subtitles.html

More complaints about Sony (Charlie's Angels 2):
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...angels-ii.html

Complaints about Traffic:
http://forums.dvdfile.com/standard-d...ffic-cthd.html

This is what happens when it goes horribly wrong: Let The Right One In
http://showhype.com/story/let_the_wr..._right_one_in/

Look no further than the recent VALKYRIE to see just how gorgeous theatrical captions look on a blu-ray release.



Wonderful! :-)

Plus take a look at this..

This is how GOLDENEYE is supposed to look. Gorgeous yes?



And here's how it looks when the player does it:



Boring, generic, video-processed graphics... Not quite the same is it? Putting the subtitles UNDER the picture is even worse. A dramatic and unacceptable alteration of the film image.

PRESERVE THEATRICAL CAPTIONS. Just leave them alone!

[Penton-Man]

Skimming the posts, I see that this poll is a bit less ‘emotional’ than the audio codec poll which is probably a good thing , as it won’t scare potential voters away.

I also note that there seems to be a lot of CIH configuration owners coming onboard the thread who are voting ……..which also is a good thing , as they have a greater self-vested interest in the outcome.

I do hope; however, to hear from a proportionate amount of hdTV owners so that this sample is at least somewhat representative of the public-at-large ownership of high definition display devices at home……..regardless of how that demographic chooses to vote in the survey.

Carry on.

[J6P]

This is one of those situations where I vote against what's best for my current setup, in order to benefit down the road.

I watch my Blus on a very nice LCD panel so for now I'm not bothered. But CIH is far and away the most elegant solution for home theater as far as I'm concerned. I think we'll all get there eventually.

I was solidly behind anamorphic DVD when I was slumming it with a 4:3 CRT, and glad that lossless audio and 1080p were the Blu standards before I had the equipment to take advantage of them. So in the same way it's an easy vote for all captions in the active frame. I think the bulk of home theater setups will be CIH someday not too far away, mine included.

[Penton-Man]

Interesting, as it seems that, at least so far, the subject of subtitle positioning just doesn’t carry the same weight or priority of importance to consumers as does DTS-HD MA vs Dolby TrueHD.

Well anyway, at the risk of referring to the above post by a member above who obviously has strong convictions about the subtitle issue and is not afraid to share them with everyone (“Spymaster” -just be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you )…………….

Regarding the above posted pic of GoldenEye, this brings up an interesting point in that on more than one occasion with studios that have provided subtitles in the active picture all the time, it has been shown that relative to screen size, Blu-ray subs are sometimes significantly larger than their theatrical equivalent.

Does anyone know why this was done by the home media content provider ?

[Spymaster]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well anyway, at the risk of referring to the above post by a member above who obviously has strong convictions about the subtitle issue and is not afraid to share them with everyone (“Spymaster” -just be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you )…………….

I certainly do have strong convictions. And I'm not afraid to share them. Nor, as a consumer, am I afraid to "bite the hand that feeds me". This is a serious problem and needs to be voiced.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Blu-ray subs are sometimes significantly larger than their theatrical equivalent. Does anyone know why this was done by the home media content provider ?

Presumably for the same reason that they replace the subs in the first place: they have no idea respect for why/how/where the subs were originally created or how they were intended to integrate into the context of the movie. Clearly they figure the screen is smaller so the text needs to be bigger even though it's totally at odds with the rest of the picture!

[ClaytonMG]

Another good example of unique subtitles is Man On Fire. If they had changed the subtitles to player generated ones and put them on the bottom, it would've changed the entire feel of the film...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Spymaster

I certainly do have strong convictions. And I'm not afraid to share them. Nor, as a consumer, am I afraid to "bite the hand that feeds me". This is a serious problem and needs to be voiced.

“Spymaster”
As you are not only a “consumer” but also a member of this forum, let me spell it out to you.
If in your ‘fervor’ to lobby your position on this issue, you choose to disrespect me, SPHE or the spirit and parameters of this survey, I can have this thread locked quicker than you can say………Michael G. Wilson, or Gary Powell for that matter.

Your reputation concerning debating this issue on other threads and other forums HTF? precedes you.

Capeesh?

If only for the sake of other people who desire the fulfillment option #1, I would suggest that you think before you post on this thread.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Spymaster

Presumably for the same reason that they replace the subs in the first place: they have no idea respect for why/how/where the subs were originally created or how they were intended to integrate into the context of the movie. Clearly they figure the screen is smaller so the text needs to be bigger even though it's totally at odds with the rest of the picture!

It’s (the reason) basically related to subtitle size/seating position at a theatrical venue vs. that for people watching movies at home and how far away much of the mainstream public (20/20 vision being a given) typically sits from their high definition displays at home.

If SPHE were to bring option #1 to fruition, I would do my best to promote the cause for Blu-ray subs on Sony titles to be about equal in size to their theatrical equivalent, relative to screen size.

[Spymaster]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

“Spymaster”
As you are not only a “consumer” but also a member of this forum, let me spell it out to you.
If in your ‘fervor’ to lobby your position on this issue, you choose to disrespect me, SPHE or the spirit and parameters of this survey, I can have this thread locked quicker than you can say………Michael G. Wilson, or Gary Powell for that matter.

That's fine, I've said everything I want to say on the matter.