1080i on component, 1080p on HDMI

[Nick Beecham]

Apologies if I am misunderstanding the Press Release on Sony's BDP-S1 Blue Ray player. I thought if the ICT flag was not being triggered, there would be there would be no down-res of the analogue output. The press release says 1080i only for analogue.

Is that right? Can't you have 1080p on analogue?

Does this mean we'll still need HDMI for highest quality after all (assuming we have a 1080p capable display)?

Many thanks in advance

Nick Beecham

[shiltz]

I belive so, don't see why it would be an issue as there is no such thing as a 1080p TV without HDMI, all TV's capable of actualy accepting a 1080p signal have HDMI, I don't belive component video even support a 1080p signal, not enough bandwidth.

[Nick Beecham]

Thanks

But my Barco 1209S supports 1080p yet doesn't have HDMI

Any further thoughts?

[Blue]

Originally Posted by shiltz

I don't belive component video even support a 1080p signal, not enough bandwidth.

Depending on distance and cable used there would be a bucket load of bandwidth with component as 1080i uses more bandwidth (for broadcast and that uses component from set top box's to 'monitors').

In this context 1080p/24 could even be a lower bits/sec than 720p or 1080i! Remember 720p can run up to 60 frames/sec, I don't know what the highest frame rate for 1080p is (with Blu Ray) but for movies it's 24 frames/sec. So the ratio now is 1280*720*60 = 55.3Mpixels / sec for 720p/60 Vs 1920*1080*24 = 49.8Mpixels /sec for 1080p/24. 1080i is a higher bandwidth as it's 1920*1080*{50/2 or 60/2} which is marginally higher than 1080p/24.

As for the Barco I suspect it will be RGB not component of that I'm not certain but assuming this comes into the "professional" range RGB is the most common interface, frequently with external sync as well. If this is correct sorry you will need to wait for a "professional" blu ray player, if one will ever exist, as I suspect HDMI (without HDCP) will become the professional standard. As one HDMI cable can replace up to 5 video cables, up to 6 Audio as well as remote control

[thunderhawk]

Maybe if you're lucky and you have an expansion bay on the connectors side of your TV set...

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Blue

Depending on distance and cable used there would be a bucket load of bandwidth with component as 1080i uses more bandwidth (for broadcast and that uses component from set top box's to 'monitors').

In this context 1080p/24 could even be a lower bits/sec than 720p or 1080i! Remember 720p can run up to 60 frames/sec, I don't know what the highest frame rate for 1080p is (with Blu Ray) but for movies it's 24 frames/sec. So the ratio now is 1280*720*60 = 55.3Mpixels / sec for 720p/60 Vs 1920*1080*24 = 49.8Mpixels /sec for 1080p/24. 1080i is a higher bandwidth as it's 1920*1080*{50/2 or 60/2} which is marginally higher than 1080p/24.

As for the Barco I suspect it will be RGB not component of that I'm not certain but assuming this comes into the "professional" range RGB is the most common interface, frequently with external sync as well. If this is correct sorry you will need to wait for a "professional" blu ray player, if one will ever exist, as I suspect HDMI (without HDCP) will become the professional standard. As one HDMI cable can replace up to 5 video cables, up to 6 Audio as well as remote control

So when a player sends a 24fps signal to a tv it includes a flag to repeat certain frames in order that the tv displays the correct 50/60 fps. Is that correct?

[thunderhawk]

Yes. Thats also how the 100 Hz technology works. It takes a 50 Hz signal and shows every frame two times so it's 100 Hz for the person watching TV or whatever...

[HT Fan]

Forgive me for being cynical, but I don't exactly trust that Sony will be putting a TRUE 1080i signal out on the component video output. The last official announcement that I read on AACS was that component video would be downgraded to 540p. Anything higher would require HDMI. I realize the spec was not final when this announcement was made, but I have not heard any other official announcement about AACS that has stated otherwise.

I wouldn't put it past Sony to line double their 540 component video output to display 1080i so that they could market it as 1080i even though it would have half the detail of a true 1080i signal.

Lets assume the Sony BD player CAN display a TRUE 1080i HD signal on component video. Great. However, I would bet AACS would let the movie studios determine whether or not that output would be available for their particular movie (even if it were tranferred to the disc at 1080p). In this case, if a movie was a allowed to display 1080i by the studio, you would see a true 1080i signal (1080p converted to 1080i). If not, you would see a 540p signal line doubled to 1080i (1080p converted to 540p converted to 1080i).

Edit: I have just reviewed the announcement on AACS wich explains ICT (Image Constraint Token), which basically details my last assumption. The studios should be REQUIRED to label their discs on the outside of the box as to whether it has ICT enabled. The consumer should know what they are buying. I'm not going to pay $30 - $40 for a LOW definition disc!


http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060122-6027.html

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by HT Fan

Edit: I have just reviewed the announcement on AACS wich explains ICT (Image Constraint Token), which basically details my last assumption. The studios should be REQUIRED to label their discs on the outside of the box as to whether it has ICT enabled. The consumer should know what they are buying. I'm not going to pay $30 - $40 for a LOW definition disc!

If you look further you will find that if ICT is used that fact will be on the sleeve.

So vote with your wallet.

[Marwin]

According to an AACS representative the studios WILL have to state on the cover if they use ICT for a release, so as phloyd stated you can just avoid these titles. Also, with the recent statements from various studios to not use ICT, I think the other studios will be forced to follow suit or get a lot of bad publicity.

According to Sony Pictures Home Entertainment Senior VP Don Eklund, none of Sony's Blu-ray releases for the "foreseeable future" will use ICT to force downsampling. "We have no plan to implement the Image Constraint Token. All of Sony's titles will come out of the analog output at full definition" Eklund noted that while Sony is obviously concerned about piracy, it sees analog signals as a relatively small concern.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060314-6377.html

So far five studios supporting Blu-ray—Sony, MGM (the MGM library is owned by Sony), Fox, Disney, and Paramount—have agreed, at least for now, not to implement the ICT flag (Image Constraint Token is a flag in the software that instructs the player to downconvert the analog component output to a maximum resolution of 960x540). So those with older displays sporting only component inputs should see full high-definition on releases from these studios. The only major studio that has yet to commit to this non-ICT policy is Warner Brothers.

Source: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/032106sonylineshow/

[Knight-Errant]

Well that's great news isn't it?

[-zombie-]

More confirmation: http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?opt...=5377&Itemid=5

It’s now reported that three other studios publishing in the Blu-ray Disc format also will pass full resolution video over the analog component video outputs. Fox, Buena Vista, and Paramount have all agreed not to implement the ICT, at least for the time being.

[Rob]

There are 3 million HDTV sets in the USA that don't have a digital video connection, I can't see the movie houses wanting to allienate these early adopters. I remember reading on the net somewhere that in Japan hi-def via component was to be allowed until 2010-12 on Blu-Ray players/discs. Whether this is rumour or not I'm not sure.

[Marwin]

Universal opts not to downscale HD content; ICT dead on arrival?
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060327-6473.html

[HT Fan]

Originally Posted by phloyd

If you look further you will find that if ICT is used that fact will be on the sleeve.

So vote with your wallet.

Please advise me where to look further.

I have seen announcements from studios that they don't have plans to down-res, but I have not seen anything that states they are *required to label* (or even plan to label) their disc cases on the outside so that the consumer can make an informed decision when purchasing a BD.

[phloyd]

A google on bluray ict label required came up with many sites including this one:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/edit...resolution.php

The studio releasing the disc makes the decision to turn on ICT but is required to label packaging to inform consumers if it will employ video down-conversion.

[Marwin]

Originally Posted by HT Fan

Please advise me where to look further.

I have seen announcements from studios that they don't have plans to down-res, but I have not seen anything that states they are *required to label* (or even plan to label) their disc cases on the outside so that the consumer can make an informed decision when purchasing a BD.

It's actually part of the AACS agreement, here's what a spokesperson for AACS has stated about it at AVS Forum:

If it helps, the AACS Content Participant Agreement is now publicly available on the AACS website, so I can reprint the actual ICT labeling requirement from the agreement:

If Content Provider has directed that the Image Constraint Token be set with respect to a particular Licensed Content Product, then the fact that such Image Constraint Token is set shall be disclosed to the consumer either (i) on such Licensed Content Product’s product packaging; or (ii) by other reasonable means that allows the consumer to be aware at the point of initial purchase that the Image Constraint Token is set with respect to such Licensed Content Product.

Source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ct#post7386772

[HT Fan]

Originally Posted by Marwin

It's actually part of the AACS agreement, here's what a spokesperson for AACS has stated about it at AVS Forum:

Thanks for the info. Although I am skeptical of "other reasonable means". I can see some studios interpreting this as stating the info on some website. This would still allow a customer to be aware of the ICT before purchase, but it wouldn't be very convenient.

I just don't like the idea of the ICT even existing. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't use it for the first few years, so that they can build an installed user base. Then start sneaking one in here and there once they even suspect that someone might have found a good way to copy movies at full resolution via the analog outputs. Of course both blu-ray and HD-DVD would crash and burn if they all were down ressed from the start since early adopters are the ones who make it succeed and they are the ones (like myself) who's HDTV doesn't have a digital connection.

[Marwin]

If some studio decides to play it sneaky with which releases use ICT I'm sure they'll get a lot of bad publicity from it, so they really should think twice about it. Also, I'm sure that web sites like ours will state this information for each movie in a clear way.

[phloyd]

I am also sure that there will be a thread here that will document uses of ICT

It is a piece of (albeit expensive) cake to record analogue HD. You just need 8 x 10k hard drives (or 12 x 7200rpm), a good 8 or 12 channel RAID card, a PCI-X motherboard PC and approx $1000 analogue HD capable capture card.