Blu Dog................all your points are very well said in my book. Well done.


:rock:

In response to Blu-Dog:


it was a cheap marketing ploy, and a blunder. The base they are appealing to is the videophile base, which is big on word of mouth and saturated with Kuro owners. Trying to attract this crowd with familiar names from different manufacturers will stand as a classic of clumsy marketing

If it was a cheap marketing ploy or not is your opinion and as for it being a marketing blunder is yet to be seen. The release of an Elite V.2 would say otherwise. Not to mention that most current Kuro owners or self proclaimed videophiles would be savvy enough to research a high end set before purchasing it. Heck a simple trip to your local BB or a call to customer service would tell that the Elite is made by sharp.


i've never paid for calibration, and with my Kuro's picture being stunning, I've never felt the need. It strikes me as a fad and a bragging point, not an electronic necessity. Something has to be seriously out of whack to require a technician to work on it.

Again your opinion and many videophiles would diagree with you. To each his own. This is my first calibrated set and I will never go back to out of box settings an any high end set.

They're both nice units, but if I were choosing side by side, the Kuro takes it, hands down. Since Kuro is gone, the real competition is with plasmas from Panasonic, and Sharp is overpriced by comparison.

Based on color accuracy alone, I'll give you that one but I wouldn't go as far as hands down on overall picture quality. As for the other plasmas, I'd rather not settle for the issues with IR, jitter and spotty upconversion of 1080i. As for sharp being overpriced, thats your opinion. It was that same type of thinking that killed the Kuro's in the first place.


At these levels, comparisons are electronic measurements, not viewing comparisons. My wife is my evaluator. As a total amateur, she compares on the look alone - no technical specifications - and on her first viewing of our Kuro, she immediately called for its purchase, which was expensive for us. It was that good. On her first viewing of the Sharp Elite, she was unimpressed, pronouncing it slightly better than the normal Sharp, and nice, but of nowhere near the quality of the Kuro.

My live in girfriend is my evaluator and said that my calibrated Elite was the best picture she has ever seen and she has had plenty of viewing time with my parents Kuro's. Does that make my point more valid than yours? No, and vise-versa. If anything, the subjective opinion of a "total amateur" while appreciated should be taken with a grain of salt in an objective discussion.

The Elite name meant nothing to her as a quality endorsement. In fact, she was wondering why the name was there - she knew Pioneers were gone, so why would they introduce lesser quality units with the same name? When I explained it, her contempt was immediate. That, quite simply, is bad marketing.

Ok I get it, your wife doesn't like the Elite. It is nice however to see that the two of you can share an interest in HT. My girfriend and I too share a similar interest

Sharp is depending on people who don't own Kuros to think they're looking at a later generation of the same unit, without close knowledge of Kuro's look. It appears to be trickery, and it doesn't appear to be working.

How so? It states that the Elite is an LCD in right in the address of the website. Again information on the Sharp Elite is easy to find in any review or publication about it. I just don't see who is being tricked. One could use that same argument for the entry Elite branded pioneer receivers so pioneer is just as guilty. What about all the other Elite branded electronics from pioneer? Note that none of them including the Sharp Elite was branded KURO ;)

People who can afford a $5,000+ television are generally in an older age group, and not much interested in the type of media 3D concentrates on. Cartoons and superhero movies are fine, but those are for younger audiences, and they can do quite well with smaller sets at less than half the cost and be happy. (Many are sitting on the edge of their seats for the next "in your face" moment). Conversion, generally of mediocre quaiity, are the trend, another reason the market for 3D is skewed towards "gee-whiz" enthusiasts, not videophiles.

I guess I should be happy that I can afford the Elite at the age of 27 then. Therefore I want a TV with an amazing picture that happens to have 3D, usefull apps and a larger screen size, not to mention arguably the deepest blacks ever, in both a non light controlled and darkened room. While we're on the subject of videopiles, one could argue that they would prefer a calibrated set and not settle for out of box or imported picture settings.

3D is a very small part of a purchasing decision, like backup cameras on cars.

Again passing your opinion off as fact. There are many people out there who love 3D and make it a part of their purchasing decision.

How can I switch to the Elite, when I already own one? You have just pointed out the problem; you don't want to call it a Sharp. That's what it is, and for some reason, there's some shame attached to it, perhaps as a "lesser brand". It is a Sharp, being passed off as an Elite for marketing purposes. Bad move.

If you are happy with your Kuro then why would you switch:confused: Again I see no mention of the name Kuro on my TV or any other pioneer branded Elite device. Either way I was well aware of what I was purchasing and have no regrets. A number of Kuro owners are very happy with their Sharp Elites.

There are people touting Vizio and Insignia, in all seriousness, proving that value is subjective (another reason I am suspicious of calibration). I just think that the marketing debacle that is Sharp Elite, with the concomittant exorbitant price tag, looks like a pure hustle of the public's money to me.
I've got a friend who purchased the 70" non-Elite Sharp, and enjoys it very much. It's a very nice set. He's happy. I'd recommend that over the equivalent Sharp Elite, at half the price.

Value IS subjective. How could it not be as everyone has a different opinion on what is affordable, not to mention what matters the most to them when purchasing a TV. The lesser sharp TV's are great bang for buck sets but there is no way anyone could convince me to get one as my main display. Placed side by side, my not so amature eyes could clearly see the difference between the Elite and lesser sharp panels. With some of them being edge lit, and the lack of proper local dimming, how could one not notice? Considering how long I plan on keeping this set, the Elite was a better value to ME. I am happy that your friend is happy with his TV as that is all that matters.:)

kudos:rock:

The brand of a product has value. I've seen brands outright stolen, introduced with slightly different spelling, subjected to "just as good as" campaigns, and so on.

In the case of the Sharp Elite, such shenanigans are unnecessary. It's a nice unit, one of the best currently available, and well suited for the marketplace. It has a price that is spiked high on the curve, and to give it an extra boost to push people over the edge, it is given extremely dubious royal lineage branding. Calling it an "Elite" when the unit that carries that loaded name is a plasma, instead of LED, is nothing less than a move borne of marketing desperation.

They didn't even try adding a "II" or "Crystal" or anything after the word "Elite"; their attempt at obfuscation is obvious, and worthy only of contempt. They have a fast-lane product; why the games?

Clearly, you are impressed with the product, as am I. I've heard that an 80" version is imminent, and I will consider it, despite my derision for their marketing department. What I'm curious about is your desire to eschew using the manufacturer's name in conjunction with the word Elite - it seems to show that you, as well as the manufacturer, are worried that including it is deleterious to the device.

Discussing the "Switching To An Elite" with someone like me, who looks at one quite often in my living room, is blithely trying to get others to buy into this. The quality of the set is not an issue, nor is any status symbol hagiography of the brand name. It's simple deceptive, and designed to transfer the acceptance of the Kuro mystique onto a different manufacturer, screen type, electronics set, and feature set. As such, it simply won't work, and hasn't, so far.

Once we get into the price point above four thousand dollars, people do their research. This is an opportunity for Sharp to cement their move into top tier electronics, and with the Sharp Elite, they have a valid entry point. To squander it with a short term marketing hustle like this doesn't look good, and as the owner of Kuro units yourself, I'm wondering why you buy into it.

I went to look at the new Sharp line, and I like the Sharp Elite. I also like their regular lines of televisions in the 70" and 80" size, and enjoyed watching Clash of the Titans (in 2-D) on my friend's new 70" television. It was the Costco version, so I think it was the 240Hz unit.

Honesty in marketing really matters when building loyalty among users who purchase expensive items. Sharp has let me down in this one area - not in the quality of their technology, but in their presentation of it. By any other name, they would not diminish the value of their set.

So why lie? It's just odd. Please trust that snobbishness is not what I'm interested in. It's value, and precision in execution. To bad that didn't make it to their marketing team, and it's too bad you're buying into it.

I agree with everything bluedog said.

Its funny to me to see some 60" kuro owners switching to a 60" sharp. They don't care for 3D either, so what exactly are you switching too? Cause it's not something better. What they are switching too is the hype. Deny this all you want.

I could kind of understand if they wanted 3D and the 70" size. Understandable i guess. But to spend money on a same size set when you have a TV thats reference already is confusing to me.

I don't know how anyone can give up the kuros analog CRT look to something so digital looking.

These shenanigans you mention have nothing to do with the Elite LCD. While high end brand names like "Elite" are indeed valuable, Pioneer was more than happy to license that name to Sharp. Also I disagree about the whole meaning of the Elite brand. The Elite name does not represent pioneers top plasmas only but a whole line of high end equipment including blu-ray players and AV receivers (some of which are rebranded low end pioneer models). Is pioneer not guilty of the same shenanigans? Also note that pioneer still kept the rights to the KURO name. If I may use a car anology, VW, one of the worlds largest automotive companies also produces Audi's, Bentleys, Lamborghinis, and the Bugatti 16/4 Veyron. Should the most expensive car in the world's name be changed to the "VW Bugatti 16/4 Veyron" just because those cars weren't originally produced by VW?

And while we're on the subject of Pioneer and Sharp, it is also well known that Pioneer had a helping hand in the development of the current Elite LCD's and it is a damn good performer for it being a first gen TV. Considering that the lower end Sharps are mostly edge lit, lack local dimming, and have inferior processing (thats where pioneer helped out), it makes perfect sense IMO for Sharp to want to differentiate it flagship LCD from the others.

I agree that anyone spending over $4000 on a TV will do their research, but during said research can easily find out who produces the Elite LCD. I don't know how you can conclude from two posts that there is some shame on my part of Sharp producing the Elite. I have never hidden this fact from anyone who cared to ask nor to mention those who didn't. As for me buying into this marketing scheme, thats utter nonsense. Brand name had little to do with my purchase. Its was the value, quality of technolgy and precision in execution (that you mentioned btw) that ultimately help me choose the Elite over the competition. Nothing more :)

Perhaps its all subjective. When comparing the 60" Pioneer to the 60" Sharp , Perhaps they simply prefer the sharper or brighter image of the Sharp Elite LCD vs. the Pioneer Kuro Plasma. There is no doubt that objectively, the Kuro measures better in term of color accuracy alone, but how the TV looks to each person is subjective. I personally would advise someone to keep their 60" Kuro unless light output, 3d, size, etc. mattered to them

Please - the SHARP Elite LCD. No shame in the name. Thanks.

With which I have a small problem, due to the lack of a manufacturer name. If this naming convention game continues, eventually everyone will have to ask, "do you mean Pioneer or Sharp?", a game popular with lazy marketers, but not with the public.

This is disingenuous at best, and ludicrous at worst - since the discussion is about televisions. If Sharp was referring to other product lines, you might have a case. Go to their home page for these units, and try that tack again.

Good point, since VW owns the Bugatti name, and no Bugatti entity designed the car. Last I heard, Pioneer doesn't own Sharp.

Anyway, we're wandering pretty far afield, in any case. The Sharp is a completely different technology - it's not a plasma, etc. etc. Without question, it is not the Elite television people know about. A better analogy, if you want one, would be to call a VW Passat a Veyron if some of the engineers worked on both cars...let's keep apples to apples.

Why try to call it an Elite and then just stop with no further differentiation? If they had made their new unit a plasma, I'd agree with you. They didn't, but they bought the name - not to improve the technology in anyway, but to play marketing games. I'd like for them to stop, and create their own differentiator. They have a good unit, and they should brag about it. At this point, they just look like nervous con artists.

The SHARP Elite LCD. Thanks.

I don't either, since I that isn't what I meant. Quite the opposite - they should be proud of their unit. What I'm saying is that you're buying into their shell game, and unless you work for them and have an agenda to boost the confusion, I can't figure out why you do that.

I don't like parsing words, I hope this clears it up.

But you have. You talked about switching to an Elite - an impossibility for me. If you mentioned the manufacturer, it would have made sense. Why not use Sharp's name? It's just odd.

I'm sure that you're a savvy buyer, and knew what you were getting. What bothers me is the need for bragging rights to a name taking precedent over the actual device.

I am glad I have a Pioneer Kuro Elite, and it is the best television produced so far, by virtually every account. This is by tiny increments, really - and anyone could have one, for the money. Trying to suck up "bragging rights" by snatching the Elite name is just feeding into the game played by so many.

I've actually been told that if I don't pay another 10% premium to have my Kuro calibrated by a professional, my set will look like crap. When pressed, I'm told that it will look like crap in comparison to the guy's set which was calibrated by somebody. That kind of foolishness passes for common sense among some.

Now, Sharp comes along and attempts to appeal to an audience more interested in bragging rights over a name, instead of the very real technology they've built into an LCD set that makes it a true standout. It's irritating and deceptive. If it sells televisions, that's their business; but if I discuss televisions, I don't work for them, and won't buy into their shell games.

Pioneer made non-Elite Kuros too, so I don't see your problem with the name aspect of your arguement. :shrug:
As was mentioned, Pioneer Elite also makes AVR's, BD players, DVD players and Speakers under the Elite name. When you say that the Elite name only refers to Plasma TV's, it makes no sense.

i think what hes trying to get across is that its a ( SHARP ) and doesn't deserve the title elite cause its a ( SHARP )

Please - the SHARP Elite LCD. No shame in the name. Thanks.

I have mentioned that Sharp produces the Elite a number of times in my previous posts. We both know that I'm talking about the Sharp Elite LCD. If you want to get technical, the Elite is its proper name

With which I have a small problem, due to the lack of a manufacturer name. If this naming convention game continues, everyone will eventually have to ask, "do you mean Pioneer or Sharp?", a game popular with lazy marketers, but not with the public.

Perhaps for now, but the longer Pioneer no longer produces plasmas the less they will be asked about. This will especially be true as the Elite LCD line gains popularity or if it truly dethrones the Kuro in the future.

This is disingenuous at best, and ludicrous at worst - since the discussion is about televisions. If Sharp was referring to other product lines, you might have a case. Go to their home page for these units, and try that tack again. Good point, since VW owns the Bugatti name, and no Bugatti entity designed the car. Last I heard, Pioneer doesn't own Sharp.

One could argue that Sharp has taken over Pioneers dispaly market since they no longer could produce them. Again my piont is that too much focus is being placed in the Elite name and not on the Kuro name which Pioneer has kept for them self.

Anyway, we're wandering pretty far afield, in any case. The Sharp is a completely different technology - it's not a plasma, etc. etc. Without question, it is not the Elite television people know about. A better analogy, if you want one, would be to call a VW Passat a Veyron if some of the engineers worked on both cars...let's keep apples to apples.

That isn't apples to apples. Calling a Passat a Veyron would imply that VW (Sharp) is simply rebadging an inferior product to market it as a premium offering. This cannot be farther from the truth. In both cases the technology is different yet the end result is the same in that they are both flagship, top performing units of their time.


Why try to call it an Elite and then just stop with no further differentiation? If they had made their new unit a plasma, I'd agree with you. They didn't, but they bought the name - not to improve the technology in anyway, but to play marketing games. I'd like for them to stop, and create their own differentiator. They have a good unit, and they should brag about it. At this point, they just look like nervous con artists.

You forgot to add IMO. You see a name can be quite powerful but it's effect is quite different on the individual .Take you and I for example. The name really doesn't effect me all that much but you seem to be greatly affected by it, and thats fine. To me the Kuro name is much more related to Pioneers latest plasma technology and not "Elite". Add in the fact that Sharp has been quite candid about working with Pioneer dispaly engineers, I really don't see the big deal. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on that particular subject as we see the Elite and Kuro quite differently.

The SHARP Elite LCD. Thanks.

Do I really have to spell it out for you EVERYTIME. You and I both know what is being discussed as is everyone else reading this thread. Perhaps I should demand that all Kuro owners should type out "Pioneer Elite KURO" everytime they mention their display.

I don't either, since I that isn't what I meant. Quite the opposite - they should be proud of their unit. What I'm saying is that you're buying into their shell game, and unless you work for them and have an agenda to boost the confusion, I can't figure out why you do that.

I don't like parsing words, I hope this clears it up.

Glad that was cleared up. To furthur clarify, the name had nothing to do with my purchase and this shell game you mention is your opinion. Just as you feel that my not spelling out Sharps name everytime is confusing, stating opinion as fact can be just as "confusing" #if not more so#. I think it is well known at this point about how you feel about the marketing strategy behind the Sharp (just for you) Elite LCD and thats perfectly fine. However there are many who don't share that same opinion.



But you have. You talked about switching to an Elite - an impossibility for me. If you mentioned the manufacturer, it would have made sense. Why not use Sharp's name? It's just odd.

If anything, I said tho keep your Kuro if you are happy with it. What is confusing about that?



I'm sure that you're a savvy buyer, and knew what you were getting. What bothers me is the need for bragging rights to a name taking precedent over the actual device.

I am glad I have a Pioneer Kuro Elite, and it is the best television produced so far, by virtually every account. This is by tiny increments, really - and anyone could have one, for the money. Trying to suck up "bragging rights" by snatching the Elite name is just feeding into the game played by so many.

I've actually been told that if I don't pay another 10% premium to have my Kuro calibrated by a professional, my set will look like crap. When pressed, I'm told that it will look like crap in comparison to the guy's set which was calibrated by somebody. That kind of foolishness passes for common sense among some.

Now, Sharp comes along and attempts to appeal to an audience more interested in bragging rights over a name, instead of the very real technology they've built into an LCD set that makes it a true standout. It's irritating and deceptive. If it sells televisions, that's their business; but if I discuss televisions, I don't work for them, and won't buy into their shell games.


The only "bragging rights" I have is that I own perhaps the best TV overall on the market right now and one of the best ever. Nothing more. This whole "marketing game" has been played by pretty much any company on the market including Pioneer themself. Sharp and Pioneer agreed to work together on a high end product and the new Elite line LCDs are the result. I must say that I am quite happy with the result so far. As for selling televisions, isnt that what Sharp or any other company is in the market for? If a mere name is all thats keeping you from purchasing one of the best TV's ever made then so be it. You very well may be missing out especially when larger improved models are released in the future.

Which I disagree with. If you were involved in the development of something, wouldn't you want credit? All of Sharp's lower end LCD's are developed by Sharp alone. The Elite LCD on the other hand was a collaborative effort by both Sharp and Pioneer hence the name. If Pioneer had nothing to do with the Elite LCD then perhaps we could be in agreement.

It's always interesting to read high end owners comments who are aficionados, regardless whether it's audio/video/furniture/cars.. etc. There is definitely a lot of passion.

Not trying to fuel the debate, but here's my take on the Pioneer Elite vs the Elite. I will refer to the Sharp panel as the Elite since as kesando pointed out, it is the correct name. Anyone who is doing research and seriously considering buying one will know Sharp produces it.

If you already own a Pioneer Elite and do not care for a bigger size and/or 3D... there really is no reason to buy the Elite even if the prices were lower. The image quality and color reproduction is still at the top of flat panel televisions. My opinion after comparing my friend's Pioneer Elite 151 (we actually brought his TV over to my place) and my Elite PRO70X5FD is that the new Elite has ever so slightly better image quality at the expense of a larger color accuracy compared to the Pioneer. When I refer to image quality, my eyes tell me that the new Elite has better whites and is brighter overall while still retaining excellent deep blacks for improved contrast. For me, the image quality is more important that having perfect color accuracy. I have to stress that the color accuracy and cyan issue does not bother me and all my family and friends who have seen my tv has never once said, the color looks off. Of course, there will be some that are more sensitive so only a good demo can tell you if it bothers you.

The Pioneer Elite does have much better motion handling, as some would put it... organic. I've never owned a plasma, so I'm a bit more used to LCD motion. Plasma users will typically have a harder time transitioning over to the motion of LCD/LEDs. However the new Elite is the best LCD/LED set I have ever seen when it comes to motion handling. CNET has a generic setting for color and motion handling, and although many owners seem to default to it, their settings use a low setting for motion which my eyes sees a very slight soap opera effect. I have mine completely turned off and enjoy it. There are instances of the dirty screen effect, although I have yet to see an instance where it bothers me, and I honestly don't even see it. I believe I saw it once while the camera was panning across the outfield during a baseball game.

I do feel the new Elite is the best 70" flat panel you can get out there now, although choices are limited basically to other lower end Sharp models. If money were no object and you wanted the best LED 70" TV, the Elite is the one to buy. That being said, the current retail price is absurd and not worth the price of admission in my opinion for those who do not have a tree in their backyard growing money. I paid significantly less than retail, under $5k for my set and that was my limit. I honestly wanted to pay no more than $4300 but the retailer offered an excellent financing option, threw in 2 more pairs of 3D glasses, getting another $120 in points for future purchases and knowing that I bought it from an authorized brick and mortal dealer guaranteeing that Sharp will warranty my set for 2 years... it was a no brainer. I almost bought a 65" VT30 during that time which was only $2000 at the time but I really wanted a 70" since the viewing distance I have really needed something larger than a 65".

Good post, and I agree with most of it except the above. I really feel that a manufacturer needs to identify itself with its product line, especially when it comes to naming conventions. In this case, Sharp is using the name not to identify its technology, but to point out its quality standard. It's an elective choice, and they paid for the privelege, but in a not so subtle way, it's deceptive.

I think they're missing an opportunity here. The Sharp Elite is definitely a very nice set, and I like it enough both to recommend it and seriously consider it for my own use. I agree that the price is still stratospheric, but it will come down - and may even precipitously drop, and competition in larger screens heats up.

Remember that even Vizio was ready to present a 70" last summer, and even though they pulled back, it's most likely going to return. Those buying for size alone will apply the downward pressure to Sharp's pricing.

The missed opportunity is in elevating the Sharp brand with this machine. It deserves a differentiator, and no tricks in branding. It's not an Elite - it's a Sharp Elite, and should have some further appelation to be discrete.

It's more than semantics, and it's certainly not brand snobbishness on my part. I prefer specificity, and it appears that the snobbishness they seek in getting owners to call it an Elite, thus invoking a name that has a history, is a hand-jive way to endow snobbishness on the unit. To me, that's a waste of time.

I spent the money to buy a Pioneer Kuro Elite, and that doesn't confer any wisdom or dilettante cool guy status on me - I simply was able to afford it, and it was the best plasma out there, before or since. I really like the Sharp Elite, and if I can afford it and have a place to put it, I'll get one, the bigger, the better.

I just wish the bean counters were a bit more up-front, and I bet I could get some Sharp engineers to agree with me.

I've had it with my 60" Elite !!! It's too small.

Just purchased the 70" Elite to replace the 60".

It's now the perfect size in my living room.

Anyone want to buy a gently used 60" Elite. :)

Clem

You must have alot of money.

How long have you had the sharp? Im guessing awhile or you would just return it.

Whats your viewing distance? I sit 8' from my kuro and i find it's pretty immersive. Even from 9 or 10 feet it still has that "big" look. My room is small though....1500cu ft. So it still looks big in there.

I do alright but want to sell the 60" to reduce the cost of the 70".

I'm probably about 10-12 feet back from the wall mounted 70".

Why didn't you sit tight for the 80"?

What you're doing is picking nits and not understanding what deceptive marketing is. This most certainly isn't it. You said it yourself, "...to point out its quality standard." That's what's going on here. It's not deceptive and it's not meant to devalue your Pioneer Elite.

Would it make you feel better if they called it the Sharp Quite Possibly Best Display On The Market Right Now?

Has that size been confirmed for the second gen sharps?