Mario Bava's Black Sunday

[bigshot]

I just got my copy and it looks wonderful. Great contrast, accurate grain, plenty of detail. My only regret is that it doesn't include the Les Baxter score. But I'm fine with the Italian music when the film looks this good.

Watching the trailers for the other Bava films, I'm struck at how unique Black Sunday was. He really went the extra mile with lighting and staging to create an otherworldly feel. The trailers on the disk look tawdry and ordinary next to Black Sunday.

[Mr. Thomsen]

You really think it looks wonderful? I think it looks terrible. Most of the film looks milky. They totally messed up the contrast in it. Compare it to the DVD release. Yes, the BD has more detail, but almost everything that's supposed to be white looks a dullish gray now. There are a couple of screenshot comparisons over at Latarnia.

Kino dropped the ball big time on this.

[#Darren]

Originally Posted by Mr. Thomsen

You really think it looks wonderful? I think it looks terrible. Most of the film looks milky. They totally messed up the contrast in it. Compare it to the DVD release. Yes, the BD has more detail, but almost everything that's supposed to be white looks a dullish gray now. There are a couple of screenshot comparisons over at Latarnia.

Kino dropped the ball big time on this.

Missing Reel 13b

[Mr. Thomsen]

Exactly.

I could live with that if they had at least included both the English AND the Italian dub. But as it stands now, this release is a missed opportunity.

I am going to get the upcoming release from Arrow instead (as should everybody who has any love for this movie).

[#Darren]

I'll watch for the Arrow release too.

[junyab]

Originally Posted by Mr. Thomsen

I am going to get the upcoming release from Arrow instead (as should everybody who has any love for this movie).

I'm not sure why you would recommend everyone get the UK Arrow release...you have no idea how theirs will turn out, so advising someone to buy it sight unseen is asinine.

[Mr. Thomsen]

Well, it can hardly be any worse. They will probably use the same crappy transfer as Kino, but at least Arrow will include both dubs and new subs for the Italian dub. And THAT alone is worth the price.

[triefy]

I'm a huge Bava fan yet haven't picked up any Bava Blu's. It is sounding like I might want to still hold off. However, my favorite film, Rabid Dogs, is coming out next month so I might have to pick that up. I just hope it has the original film and not his son's bastardization, Kidnapped.

[NoirFan]

Kidnapped/Rabid Dogs has been delayed indefinitely.

[mrchallenge]

The arrow release is coming out in just a few days. I would pass on the Kino Lorber version and get the Arrow instead. The Arrow comes with a Barbara Steele Interview, Featurettes, fancy art cover, the AIP version, Italian dub, 3 different English subtitles, and I Vampiri. Arrow has had problems in the past, but at least they try to put the best product out there.

I was soooo disspointed with the kino lorber version. They really dropped the ball. Sure the picture quality was good, but it was barebones, had a really ugly menu screen and didn't add any special features on top of what was already on the anchor bay dvd. Shame on them for putting absolutely zero effort into their release.

[NoirFan]

Originally Posted by mrchallenge

Shame on them for putting absolutely zero effort into their release.

Kino has really never created or commissioned their own extras, and has barely ever included any extras at all, save the occasional commentary track, going back to the beginning of their DVD days.

[billyearle]

Originally Posted by #Darren

Missing Reel 13b

What's in reel 13B? Was the same thing missing in the Arrow release?
I decided to keep both Kino and Arrow versions. I think it depends on your TV's callibration which version you think looks better. Initially I was dissapointed with the Kino and was going to give it away when the Arrow came out.
　　I have since changed my TV to a setting using backlight and adjusted the calibration. YMMV, but now my opinion is that the Kino looks better than the same cut on the Arrow, more filmic and natural with more nuanced, layered contrast. In the international cut the Arrow seems to have boosted contrast, and if I lower the contrast a notch it looks a bit dull. Comparing the first 30 minutes the AIP cut on Arrow looks better, about equal to the Kino.
Also, on my stereo, the sound is more pleasing on the Kino, both have a lot of peak distortion but the distortion sounds more forward, annoying and distracting on the Arrow, I hadn't really thought it was such a problem on the Kino.
Bitrates don't account for it, but perhaps the fact that Kino has only one cut of the film on a single layered disc, while the Arrow puts 2 versions of the film plus I Vampiri and more extras all on one double layered disc could account for the Kino PQ looking better? I am not a tech guy.

[Brian81]

I'm generally pretty critical of PQ and thought the Kino disc looked fine. I ordered the Arrow disc also just for the AIP cut.

[bgart13]

I think the Arrow release is better. However, someone really needs to dig out the neg to get a definitive release.

[NoirFan]

Originally Posted by billyearle

Bitrates don't account for it, but perhaps the fact that Kino has only one cut of the film on a single layered disc, while the Arrow puts 2 versions of the film plus I Vampiri and more extras all on one double layered disc could account for the Kino PQ looking better? I am not a tech guy.

Per DVD Beaver, the Arrow version has a higher bitrate (27.99 vs. 25.94) and file size (22,623 vs. 20,087) despite the added material.

[pro-bassoonist]

Higher bit rates do not equate better quality. And especially in this case, the numbers mean absolutely nothing.

This is why the routine comments about "more robust" image, "layered contrast" (whatever this is supposed to mean), etc. based on bit rates numbers mean nothing.

What matters is how the transfer is/was encoded, especially in the range of bit numbers that are typically used for these releases.

Pro-B

[NoirFan]

Didn't know that. I had always just assumed higher filesize meant a typically superior image, after MoC advertised Profound Desire of the Gods as having the highest (or second, after Avatar) bitrate/filesize ever.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by NoirFan

Didn't know that. I had always just assumed higher filesize meant a typically superior image, after MoC advertised Profound Desire of the Gods as having the highest (or second, after Avatar) bitrate/filesize ever.

Well, if what you assumed was true, then all producers would simply max out the bit rates and you would have flawless releases across the board. And you probably won't have encoders.

There are certain limits within which you need to work, but how you encode is more important than how high your bit rates go.

There are actually a couple of professional encoders that visit the forum from time to time. One of them does work for Canal. If they see your post, they will probably also comment on it.

Pro-B

[bgart13]

Many of the discs I've seen or bought (or read reviews for) that have bitrates of around 20 are actually pretty lackluster. And ones with data size under 15gb (for a 90-120 min feature) also tend to be lacking. Naturally there are other factors involved too.

[billyearle]

Yeah, when I saw the DVD beaver comparisons on bitrates I was surprised, cause the Kino really looked better to me. Without knowing much about the process, I always believed that audio and video mastering is as much an art as a science.
Against my better judgement, I borrowed the phrase "layered contrast" from DVD beaver. I meant that the gradations from black to white seemed more gradual and natural, whereas the Arrow sometimes seems to have exaggerated contrast and looses some of the subtle gradations in between.