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Old 08-28-2016, 09:27 AM   #61
Jamzz Jamzz is offline
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Hi

I have a Yamaha A1020 which I currently use as a 3.1 setup for movies ( had to remove my surround speakers for nwo because of a new sofa. But they will come back soon hanging on the wall).
I have a small room and I have sofa against the wall. Anyway my question here is:
Since my room is very problematic for setup home cinema. I have my TV right in front of the sofa obviously. But my 2 big front speakers (XTZ 95.44) are very wide from the TV close to the walls of the room. There is no more space to their left to put presence speakers. And then under my TV obviously I have the center.

So for me what is missing that I want for movies is to lift the dialog from the center under the TV to a bit more up like probably where the front speakers should have been if I had space. So that leaves my setup looking like this:

Center under the TV, a 55 inch TV, then like 2 front presence slightly above the TV to the sides of it. and then say 5 feet away from the front presence speakers have my front speakers L and R.

How would this work only for lifting dialog above the center speaker in movies and no other use?
I would try if I have a set of speakers but I really dont. Im very new to this world of home cinema stuff as PC and computers is my main thing

Thanks for any advice/input!
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Old 08-30-2016, 04:14 PM   #62
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamzz View Post
Hi

I have a Yamaha A1020 which I currently use as a 3.1 setup for movies ( had to remove my surround speakers for nwo because of a new sofa. But they will come back soon hanging on the wall).
I have a small room and I have sofa against the wall. Anyway my question here is:
Since my room is very problematic for setup home cinema. I have my TV right in front of the sofa obviously. But my 2 big front speakers (XTZ 95.44) are very wide from the TV close to the walls of the room. There is no more space to their left to put presence speakers. And then under my TV obviously I have the center.

So for me what is missing that I want for movies is to lift the dialog from the center under the TV to a bit more up like probably where the front speakers should have been if I had space. So that leaves my setup looking like this:

Center under the TV, a 55 inch TV, then like 2 front presence slightly above the TV to the sides of it. and then say 5 feet away from the front presence speakers have my front speakers L and R.

How would this work only for lifting dialog above the center speaker in movies and no other use?
I would try if I have a set of speakers but I really dont. Im very new to this world of home cinema stuff as PC and computers is my main thing

Thanks for any advice/input!
Are you using the Dialog Lift in the DSP settings? It works perfectly in my system.
Infinity Comp Prelude P-FR, Infinity Comp Overture 1 - center & front hght and sides, Infinity fps-1000 rear and rear hght, Infinity Outrigger Jr. overheads, 2 AE AV15 Power Cube subwoofers, SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2 DCM Subs (rear), Denon AVR-X4300H (front hght and Prepro), Yamaha MX-830 (rear hght), B&K 200.7 Reference Amp, Behringer NU4-6000 (subs),miniDSP 2X4, BD HTPC, Tube DAC, NAS 20tb , 16:9 110", Vivitek hk2288 4k proj, TCL Roku 4K TV.
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Old 08-30-2016, 05:55 PM   #63
Jamzz Jamzz is offline
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Originally Posted by prerich View Post
Are you using the Dialog Lift in the DSP settings? It works perfectly in my system.
Hi!

Thanks for the answer! However Im not sure you read my post.
Id really appreciate any advice and opinion on the subject!

Last edited by Jamzz; 08-30-2016 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 08-31-2016, 01:58 PM   #64
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamzz View Post
So for me what is missing that I want for movies is to lift the dialog from the center under the TV to a bit more up like probably where the front speakers should have been if I had space. So that leaves my setup looking like this:

Center under the TV, a 55 inch TV, then like 2 front presence slightly above the TV to the sides of it. and then say 5 feet away from the front presence speakers have my front speakers L and R.

How would this work only for lifting dialog above the center speaker in movies and no other use?
I would try if I have a set of speakers but I really dont. Im very new to this world of home cinema stuff as PC and computers is my main thing

Thanks for any advice/input!
Are you saying you want your presence speaker to the inside of your left and right? I'm not quite understanding you. Also - the part that I've bold and underlined...that's what the Dialog Lift DSP does. You can set a scene for movies and set a different scene (that doesn't use Diaglog Lift) for everything else.

Can you give me a visual of what you are trying to accomplish? That might help.
Infinity Comp Prelude P-FR, Infinity Comp Overture 1 - center & front hght and sides, Infinity fps-1000 rear and rear hght, Infinity Outrigger Jr. overheads, 2 AE AV15 Power Cube subwoofers, SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2 DCM Subs (rear), Denon AVR-X4300H (front hght and Prepro), Yamaha MX-830 (rear hght), B&K 200.7 Reference Amp, Behringer NU4-6000 (subs),miniDSP 2X4, BD HTPC, Tube DAC, NAS 20tb , 16:9 110", Vivitek hk2288 4k proj, TCL Roku 4K TV.
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Old 08-31-2016, 04:29 PM   #65
Jamzz Jamzz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post
Are you saying you want your presence speaker to the inside of your left and right? I'm not quite understanding you. Also - the part that I've bold and underlined...that's what the Dialog Lift DSP does. You can set a scene for movies and set a different scene (that doesn't use Diaglog Lift) for everything else.

Can you give me a visual of what you are trying to accomplish? That might help.

Hi m8

The answer to the bold is yes! I want it inside left and right. But still above the them like half a meter.
I simply dont have the space to put them to the sides of the fronts as one of the fronts is almost completly in one corner of the room (and cant be moved).

How do you think that would work? I mean like a lot inside of the left and the rights. Like if TV is in centre I want the 2 front presence like 50cm from the TV to the sides and then the front left and right will be another 1.5m from them to the sides..

Tommorow Im gonna buy Radius HD45 small satellite speakers to try it. I got them very cheap and I have no other speakers to try with.. I just hope they will play well with my XTZ 95 system and work without being on the outside of the fronts as yamaha recommends.
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Old 09-01-2016, 12:35 PM   #66
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamzz View Post
Hi m8

The answer to the bold is yes! I want it inside left and right. But still above the them like half a meter.
I simply dont have the space to put them to the sides of the fronts as one of the fronts is almost completly in one corner of the room (and cant be moved).

How do you think that would work? I mean like a lot inside of the left and the rights. Like if TV is in centre I want the 2 front presence like 50cm from the TV to the sides and then the front left and right will be another 1.5m from them to the sides..

Tommorow Im gonna buy Radius HD45 small satellite speakers to try it. I got them very cheap and I have no other speakers to try with.. I just hope they will play well with my XTZ 95 system and work without being on the outside of the fronts as yamaha recommends.
I know that Yamaha has been pretty staunch on having the presence speakers on the outside since the DSP-1. It's the way they use the DSP. You can try it, but I'm with Yamaha on this one.

On another note - the XTZ 95 system is very well reviewed!!! Kudos on your speaker choice.
Infinity Comp Prelude P-FR, Infinity Comp Overture 1 - center & front hght and sides, Infinity fps-1000 rear and rear hght, Infinity Outrigger Jr. overheads, 2 AE AV15 Power Cube subwoofers, SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2 DCM Subs (rear), Denon AVR-X4300H (front hght and Prepro), Yamaha MX-830 (rear hght), B&K 200.7 Reference Amp, Behringer NU4-6000 (subs),miniDSP 2X4, BD HTPC, Tube DAC, NAS 20tb , 16:9 110", Vivitek hk2288 4k proj, TCL Roku 4K TV.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:36 PM   #67
VonMagnum VonMagnum is online now
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Reviving an old thread... what's the status of presence speakers with newer Yamaha receivers? Will Atmos height speakers double as presence speakers for older material or should the newer Dolby Surround mode just be used for pretty much everything anyway and the presence speakers no longer exist or is there an option for BOTH?

Looking To Upgrade Sound

Right now I'm using an old Yamaha HTR-5960 with an outboard HDMI switchbox (with an optical feed from the switch box back to the Yamaha) until I find the "right" newer receiver and figure out exactly how I'm going to get Atmos (or something resembling it or DTS:X) installed in a room that has some obstacles going for it. The thought of using presence speakers with the current receiver really hadn't dawned on me until recently when I found out about the "dialog lift" feature that ties into it (I had to search my manual to see if it even did this and sure enough, it "barely" mentions it in the DSP parameter section for the surround modes as a parameter you can modify.)

I also found that if I modified 7-channel stereo mode so the surrounds weren't blaring at the same levels as the front channels that it ALSO lifted vocals for concert material up to screen level (i.e. the fronts are louder, but side mounted surrounds are above ear height, so at lower levels, they lift the apparent vocal up vertically while making it seem like they're still coming from the front; this only works for a modified 7-channel stereo mode, though and won't do anything for movies since they're not set up that way unless you want to watch a movie in 7-channel stereo mode, which might be OK for 2-channel material, but I'd never want to do it with anything more than that). I've attached an older photo of my system (with my old Panasonic projector; it's now an Epson 3100 and a few other gear pieces have changed as well, but you can see the placement of the speakers relative to the screen and the attache diagram shows the other details).

Basically, I'm thinking I could get a set of PSB bookshelf speaker and put them on the second shelf on either side of the screen and set the receiver to only use the rear channels for flagged EX or ES surround and that would allow dialog lift for all 5.1 movies (yeah I could try the other DSP modes again, but they've been mostly terrible thus far; I don't know how much presence speakers would change that; I usually use Dolby Music IIx for surround music or 2-channel or 7-channel stereo for music depending on which sounds best for a particular album, although I do most of my stereo recording listening on my Carver AL-III ribbon speaker system upstairs anyway).

Meanwhile, since I wanted matching front speakers, I only had one B15 extra to use for the rear surround channel and given the layout (sliding glass door in back and half bathroom) it made sense anyway to do 6.1 instead of 7.1 for the room at the time. I did run into the dreaded "rear center sounds like it's in front of you" problem with some material, but I found if i turns the speaker around backwards so I heard a bounced reflection instead, it went away and appeared to come from behind all the time, although I had to compensate in volume level).

Now with loads of newer 7.1 soundtracks and Atmos/X out there, I'm trying to figure out a way to make 7.1 and Atmos or X work for the room. Ceiling speakers are probably NOT in the cards (both looks and hard to run the wires to hide them through the ceiling which also the floor above, not an attic).

I've thought about some form of dual pair in the back only a foot or two apart (sliding door makes it difficult to do any thing else and the half bathroom offsets it so the speaker would never be as far over as the regular side surrounds). I've also thought about using the existing S50 side surrounds that are high mounted on the sides as height speakers (instead of the ceiling) given the narrow dimensions of the room and adding lower ear level surrounds nearby as the new side/bed level surrounds. That would then line up with the existing height of the front channels and rear channels and the "presence" speakers I could set up right now with the current receiver (for dialog lift) could then be the front height speaker in a 11.1 setup (making it 7.1.4 in Atmos/X).

With the main beam of the house passing by behind the couch, I don't know how effective rear height speakers would be for the main couch anyway, although conceivably some ceiling bounce speakers from the rear might work in that capacity depending on how effective it is. That would allow a selection of either front height or back height instead and/or allow presence speakers on 5.1 movies for dialog lift instead IF they still use that feature (or is it baked into the new Dolby Surround mode if you use front height?). I have some concern about matching drivers, etc. but I figure if I stick to PSB the sound will at least be similar since they're known for being flat speakers and most of their tweeters and midranges are at least similar, if not identical (e.g. the Image B15 and bipole Image S50s I use now have identical drivers).

I've also thought about looking for some used towers for the front instead, freeing up the B15s for possible use elsewhere. Looking on eBay I've seen a number of Alpha type smaller bookshelves that could be used for presence and/or different rear speakers. Finding at good combination and setup is the key. I know some think Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers should either go on the ceiling or bounced, but the high mounted side surrounds (less than two feet from the ceiling as it is) already image 'overhead' in existing soundtracks and are also even with just above the mid-point of the screen (i.e. surround effects are both coming out even with the middle of the screen and appear to be overhead at the same time given the screen position). I could put the presence/front height at the same level in the front and between lift or height functions, the sound should move in the same relative field and/or newer ear height surrounds would then line up with the front speakers below the screen (again see photo/diagram). The rear of the room is more difficult to deal with (as it is, the side bleed into the rear surround and it just seems to fly behind me with left/right cues coming from the side speakers rather than the back). They would have to sit closer together anyway due to the half bathroom and sliding door so I wouldn't get tons of separation back there, but I suppose some is better than none.

I also see Dolby's ProLogic iiz uses front height/presence channels. Is that mode preempted on newer receivers just like Prologic iix was wiped in favor of Dolby Surround (for Atmos) doing all things for all people?

Now What

So, in review, are newer Yamaha receivers still using a presence speaker setup and if so, how are they used in combination with Atmos/X? Given my layout, any recommendations on how best to proceed for adding more channels?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Home Theater Photo Resized.jpg (94.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Home Theater Layout.jpg (93.4 KB, 2 views)
Theater: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 9.1 PSB X1T/T45/B15/S50 main/surround speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" Sub; Yamaha receiver; Music/2nd Room: Samsung 55" Q8F QLED TV, Carver AL-III Speakers, Audio-X-Stream Active Crossover, TFM-35x Amp (Woofers), Yamaha M-45 Amp (Ribbons), Carver C-5 Sonic Holography Pre-Amp, Klipsch Surrounds/Sub; Technics Outboard DD/DTS Decoder; Sources Used: Sony PS4, FireTV 4K/KODI, Apple TV 4K, LG Ultra 4K/3D BD, Pioneer Laserdisc, Nintendo 64/GameCube
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