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Old 09-30-2017, 03:54 AM   #81
DIY_HD DIY_HD is offline
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Well I'm glad I can provide you with some entertainment. Still, I cannot find anything that is grounded separately from the electrical panel. I will keep looking, since it appears that there may be another pathway to ground. While we don't use a land line, the telephone network interface is connected directly to the 3 AWG copper wire. We don't have cable, but I'll have to disconnect these to see if they are grounded separately. Internet is fiber optic - no problem there. Water line is plastic coming into the house and then gets fitted to copper, but the 3 AWG wire runs the length of the basement to the Pressure Reducing Valve to ensure that both sides of the valve are grounded (bridged). The air conditioner is on a plastic pad and has no ground wire, just the control cable. Now the steel gas line goes to the meter which is supported by a steel angle iron that goes into the ground as well as the steel pipe itself. But this is like 4 inches away from the second ground rod.

The length of the wire from the panel to the ground rod is about 25 feet. The National Electrical Code says this wire should have no more than 25 Ohms. By your calculations, it's 120 Ohms. So do I disconnect the ground wire from the ground rods and short something to see if anything fries? Am I having fun yet? Almost...

BRP__: Sony UBP-X800 _4KTV_: Sony XBR-75X940E _AVR_: Sony STR-ZA1000ES 7.2
LAN__: 4 10/100/1000 Ethernet ports _________ Stand: Standout Designs N702
Spkrs: 2 Mirage Omni 260, Omni CC, 4 OmniSats Subs: Prestige S10 & JBL 120
Pwr Conditioner__: APC Smart-UPS 1000VA LCD RM 2U, True Sine Wave Inverter
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Old 09-30-2017, 01:41 PM   #82
westom westom is offline
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Originally Posted by DIY_HD View Post
The length of the wire from the panel to the ground rod is about 25 feet. The National Electrical Code says this wire should have no more than 25 Ohms. By your calculations, it's 120 Ohms. So do I disconnect the ground wire from the ground rods and short something to see if anything fries? Am I having fun yet? Almost...
Code says a ground rod must measure less than 25 ohms. Ground rod electrode; not connecting wire.

Wire thickness determines its resistance which should be less than 1 ohm. But that wire is too long. Resistance is lowered by making a wire thicker. Impedance is lowered by making that hardwire shorter.

Do not disconnect that earth ground. Install another that connects shorter from breaker box to earth. Then both earth grounds can be interconnected; would be hardwired to be part of a much larger single point earth ground. That would lower electrode resistance. Making a connection to a first earth ground electrode shorter would lower connection impedance.

Disconnecting an earth ground (even with the main breaker off) may threaten human life. Stray currents would no longer have that earth connection. Disconnected stray currents might create a high voltage; that is a threat. IOW always have at least one intact earth ground at any time.

If a utility pole earth ground is missing, then a threat created by not always having an earth ground increases.

Meanwhile, did you confirm their (utility) earth ground also exists? That 'primary' protection layer is also critical to protecting your appliances.

An excessively long earth ground hardwire probably does not, by itself, explain previous damage. But effectiveness of a 'whole house' protector increases with a hardwire every foot shorter to earth.

BTW, just to be clear, that other hardwire ground to a cold water pipe is not an earth ground. Code no longer considers a water pipe sufficient for an earth ground. That hardwire connection is critical so that interior copper water pipes do not become electrically hot. It sounds like that safety ground is properly installed. Length of that hardwire (impedance) is irrelevant. Human safety is about a low resistance connection to copper at the regulator and water meter location. Connect to copper as close as possible to where cold water enters the building. A jumper should also connect to both sides of the water meter so that safety ground always exists even when the water company changes that meter. It sounds like your water pipe safety ground is good.

Same applies to gas pipes. If the gas company in your region wants those pipes safety grounded, then it sounds like you have a proper connection. Meter should provide an electrical separation between safety grounded pipes inside the house and earthed gas pipes that are buried. Never bond (connect your breaker box ground) to utility side gas pipes.

Some gas company people have told me how they remove paint that might cover that electrical insulator between interior gas pipes and exterior pipe. Since paint spanning the insulator gap is considered electrically conductive. This only for human safety reasons.

So far we have not stumbled on anything that would explain why those three items were unique victims. Apparently a surge found a best connection to earth via those three appliances. We have assumed a surge was incoming on AC mains. Also possible is a surge incoming via some other path; finding earth outgoing via the panel. Things you might not consider electrically conductive actually can be; including linoleum and concrete.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:07 PM   #83
DIY_HD DIY_HD is offline
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I'm slowly eliminating issues that you have revealed. I did paint my gas meter, so I will remove the paint from the insulators. The gas line is connected to the furnace which is connected to the relay panel which is connected to the thermostat which is connected to the Ethernet switch via a CAT 5 cable . Hmmm, I'm seeing a connection that shouldn't be.

Utilities are all underground here, so I can't really tell since there is no pole. The water meter is connected via plastic pipe in the lawn box (ground doesn't freeze here).

As for shortening the ground wire to earth, that may be a challenge. Short of drilling a hole in the basement concrete directly below the main panel, I can't make it too much shorter. However, I can run another wire via a more direct route to the second ground rod which is closer than the one by the electric meter. It would probably cut the distance in half to about 12 feet. Do you think that using a 2 AWG to the nearest ground rod would be sufficient?

BRP__: Sony UBP-X800 _4KTV_: Sony XBR-75X940E _AVR_: Sony STR-ZA1000ES 7.2
LAN__: 4 10/100/1000 Ethernet ports _________ Stand: Standout Designs N702
Spkrs: 2 Mirage Omni 260, Omni CC, 4 OmniSats Subs: Prestige S10 & JBL 120
Pwr Conditioner__: APC Smart-UPS 1000VA LCD RM 2U, True Sine Wave Inverter
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:37 AM   #84
BMill BMill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Guys, I'm going to ask this again, in as distinct a manner as I can...

Can anyone recommend a component-style power conditioner, such as one that looks like THIS:

[Show spoiler]



...that you've been personally happy with, and that you can wholeheartedly suggest? As I said, we'd like to move from one of these:

[Show spoiler]


...to one of the aforementioned component-esque pieces...
Buy a 10 outlet Brick Wall. https://www.brickwall.com/collections/audiophile
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:44 AM   #85
BMill BMill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ View Post
You're a bot trying to pretend too be a human?

What kit do you protect your AV-system or home electrical items with Westom. You may not be into cinema at home or watching films on the big screen. But as you project a large opinion about conditioners & UPS systems I expect you do have 'whole house' solution to one or all of your many houses you own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
I use a power conditioner or UPS. That proves others must use it? Of course not. That only proves hoodwinking is easy. Where is the spec number that defines hardwae protection? Neither have them. You did not post one number to justify those magic boxes. A first indication you are easily scammed.
Let me get this straight, westom feels hoodwinked by power conditioners and UPS systems, yet uses them, and refrains from saying what they are? Does this seem logical? Or is this just westom's poor use of punctuation and grammar?
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Old 10-03-2017, 01:28 AM   #86
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A long overdue response to Vilya, and westom:

1. Houses are built around a proper electrical ground.
2. Series mode surge protectors were designed around a proper electrical ground.
3. Normal MOV based surge protectors shunt to ground, where the surges seek the lowest resistance path to ground, which may be data or video lines.
4. "MOVs: Sacrificial By Design. MOV's function by creating a short circuit (usually to the neutral and the ground) when a preset voltage threshold is exceeded. Essentially they divert surge current away from what the surge protector is protecting. Unfortunately MOV's are sacrificial components. This means that the performance life of any surge protector utilizing this technology is finite. With every surge current diversion above a modest level an MOV comes closer to its inevitable end."
5. Properly licensed series mode surge protectors have A-1-1 Certification. This is the U.S. Government’s highest classification for point of use surge suppression.
- Grade A is the best endurance – 1,000 surges of 6,000 Volts / 3,000 Amps with no degradation.
- Class 1 specifies the best voltage suppression of 330 Volts peak for 6,000 Volts / 3,000 Amps surges.
- Mode 1 is Line to Neutral (L-N) suppression. This avoids ground wire contamination and is recommended for interconnected equipment.
- IEEE (The Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) states that 6000V is the largest transient that the interior of a building would experience.
- IEEE defines its harshest interior surge environment as one that could experience 100 surges of 6000V, 3000A in a years time (category B3).
6. Pictures, or in this case video, say a thousand words:
7. The Figure 3 graph at the following link shows how MOV Whole Building Surge Protectors let through greater voltages. https://zerosurge.com/product-comparisons/
More information can be found here: http://us-tech.com/RelId/1082596/ISv...#39;t_Work.htm
The main data points: "EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute) is a research institute which services the power utility industry. They research components and systems for power utilities. They researched systems consisting of a "whole house" surge protector with typically high clamping levels supplemented with lower clamping level point-of-use protectors as recommended by the whole house surge protector suppliers.

EPRI, in a "System Compatibility Research Project" concluded ". . . with the `lower bidder' (lower clamping level) downstream SPD (point-of-use protector) absorbing most of the energy. This means the upstream SPD (whole building surge protector) remains passive: not only a waste of resources, but also a possible problem of inviting the large surge currents to flow deep into the power distribution system, where they can cause interactions with adjacent circuits, defeating one of the benefits of whole-house surge protection.

Their reasoning was simple. The "whole house" and branch circuit protectors typically had a very high let-through voltage or VPR (Voltage Protection Rating) of 700 to 1,000V. A 700V VPR is too high to protect sensitive electronic equipment, requiring a lower 330 to 400V VPR point-of-use protection for optimum protection of these sensitive systems."
8. No whole home surge protector will guarantee against a direct lightning strike.
9. westom likes to say a proper electrical ground is infallible without human error, but things age, and ground connections can age, loosen, or be worn through by animals.
10. If a proper electrical ground is infallible, why are there so many insurance claims, and attempts to claims of warranties on MOV based surge protectors?
11. westom, of your own free will, connect a lightning rod to your power line, before the breaker box, and livestream a direct lightning hit. Then continue to show how every piece of equipment in your house is not attached to a surge protector and is fully working. Theory is one thing, and you like to talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
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Old 10-03-2017, 01:24 PM   #87
westom westom is offline
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Originally Posted by BMill View Post
Unfortunately MOV's are sacrificial components. This means that the performance life of any surge protector utilizing this technology is finite.
Some are entrenched in lies and myths. Therefore separating science from reality is impossible. Yes, MOVs degrade with use. Immediately on a first surge (a scam). Or one can learn from numbers provided by MOV manufacturers. Acceptable failures means its voltage Vb changes by 10% - and is not sacrificial.
Quote:
The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.
10,000 times is sacrificial? Of course not. If MOVs are sufficiently sized, then it still works decades later. Then its voltage might change by 10% - not fail catastrophically.

Properly sized MOVs in products from responsible manufacturers means MOVs in that protector works just fine decades later after many direct lightning strikes.

How to sell scams to the naive? Undersize and mislocate MOVs. Then it fails on a first surge. Then the most naive '*know*' MOVs are sacrificial. Will even hype near zero joule series mode protectors as if a magic box. Citations that intentionally misrepresent reality come from Zerosurge - not from professional sources. Each is subjective - are marketed to people with poor reading skills and who ignore numbers.

Professional organization describes effective protection as a current connected to earth. Anyone can learn reality only if first eliminating urban myths and half truths promoted by Zerosurge, et al. Or by learning basic electrical concepts. But then one would know why MOVs adjacent to appliances can even make appliance damage easier. And why a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

One professional citation describes properly earthed protection as 99.5 to 99.9% protection. And then says,
Quote:
Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice.
Professionals recommend properly earthed protection with numbers. A naysayer cannot.

An example of how *one*, using a power conditioner or UPS, proves why everyone must use one? "If using a power conditioner, then everyone should use one." Poor reading skills means reading what he wants to see. Not what is said. Demonstrated is how the naive *prove* something as necessary. He only read what he wants to see.

Last edited by westom; 10-03-2017 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 10-03-2017, 01:45 PM   #88
westom westom is offline
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Originally Posted by DIY_HD View Post
Short of drilling a hole in the basement concrete directly below the main panel, I can't make it too much shorter. However, I can run another wire via a more direct route to the second ground rod which is closer than the one by the electric meter.
Drilling through concrete is easy with a masonry drill bit. Drilling through rock (late 1800s vintage buildings) was a challenge. However if drilling through concrete only eliminates 2 feet, I would not bother. Money is better spend enhancing electrodes (expanding a single point earth ground).

Critical is to have that ground electrode connected to all incoming wires. Tech Tip 8 from a utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) earthing at:
https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-e...lity/tech-tips

Removing paint from gas pipe insulators is a minor improvement. Troubling is a serious violation, not found, to explain how currents obtain earthing destructively via those three appliances.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:11 PM   #89
GunZenBomZ GunZenBomZ is offline
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I've stated a number of times that westom likes to use the example of a lighting strike. And my response was to do a faraday cage setup as is done with expensive facilities also called structural protection.

http://www.keison.co.uk/index.shtml

There are a number of ways of insulating a building by guiding the hit down away from your home. Usually this is done with a interception mast or high aerial but its frankly something that is not considered worth doing. As the electrical supplier has built into their system dedicated lightening detection systems & if needed will cut power to protect homes/businesses/infrastructure.

http://cn.vaisala.com/Vaisala%20Docu...ispatching.pdf

Finally getting back on track, the site I've listed also has 'whole house' solutions from bowthorpe. Other manufactures are available of course.

Westom; I'm still eager to read your setup & protection. It seems everyone else has been forthcoming & frank & as you've now stated you're an expert. Please fill in the blanks with what equipment you use.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:42 PM   #90
westom westom is offline
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Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ View Post
There are a number of ways of insulating a building by guiding the hit down away from your home. Usually this is done with a interception mast or high aerial but its frankly something that is not considered worth doing.
Defined is protection of a structure. A lightning rod as demonstrated by Franklin over 250 years ago. What makes a lightning rod effective? Not pointed verse blunt (although making it higher does increase its protection area). A lightning rod is only as effective as its earth ground.

Lightning struck a lightning rod. Maybe 20,000 amps flowing to earth on a wire only four feet from a PC. PC did not even blink. Because induced currents from E-M fields are near zero; when using well proven science with numbers.

An earthed lightning rod is protection of a structure. Protection of appliances inside that structure is about, for example, a direct lightning strike many blocks down the street that is incoming to every appliance. Lightning strikes to structures are rare.

Lightning strikes to appliances are more common - maybe once every seven years (typically much less in the UK). A surge incoming on a wire (overhead or underground) is a surge incoming to interior appliances. Best protection, already inside every appliance, is not overwhelmed when a 'whole house' solution is implemented.

Not a 'whole house' protector. That protector is only as effective as what does protection. A responsible solution connects that protector low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground. Protection is from a 'system' - not a magic box. Most attention focuses on what actually does protection. On where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.

No protector does protection. Effective 'whole house' protectors (many already listed) connects to what should has every homeowner's greatest attention - single point earth ground.

All this posted previously with more numbers that defines how to best implement it. Even Keison, AEL Group, Siemens, and Schneider Electric define this best and required solution.

A Vaisala paper discusses something completely different and irrelevant to context. Failure to do this caused a massive NYC 1979(?) blackout. The Grid already does those things to remain functional during numerous direct lightning strikes. And also implements protection that works only because it is earthed:
http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/sco...le/pexlink.wmv
But again, what always defines effective proetction? Not a protector. Earthing. A protector (even on the grid) is only as effective as its earth ground.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:23 AM   #91
Mena Xiao Mena Xiao is offline
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A surge protector is good to protect devices like home theater but can't improvement on audio quality at all. It is a publicity stunt. But you still need a surge protector, so learn to tell whether it is a good surge protector. My bestek surge protector has been used for half a year and it works fine.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:11 AM   #92
BMill BMill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Some are entrenched in lies and myths. Therefore separating science from reality is impossible. Yes, MOVs degrade with use. Immediately on a first surge (a scam). Or one can learn from numbers provided by MOV manufacturers. Acceptable failures means its voltage Vb changes by 10% - and is not sacrificial. 10,000 times is sacrificial? Of course not. If MOVs are sufficiently sized, then it still works decades later. Then its voltage might change by 10% - not fail catastrophically.

Properly sized MOVs in products from responsible manufacturers means MOVs in that protector works just fine decades later after many direct lightning strikes.

How to sell scams to the naive? Undersize and mislocate MOVs. Then it fails on a first surge. Then the most naive '*know*' MOVs are sacrificial. Will even hype near zero joule series mode protectors as if a magic box. Citations that intentionally misrepresent reality come from Zerosurge - not from professional sources. Each is subjective - are marketed to people with poor reading skills and who ignore numbers.

Professional organization describes effective protection as a current connected to earth. Anyone can learn reality only if first eliminating urban myths and half truths promoted by Zerosurge, et al. Or by learning basic electrical concepts. But then one would know why MOVs adjacent to appliances can even make appliance damage easier. And why a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

One professional citation describes properly earthed protection as 99.5 to 99.9% protection. And then says, Professionals recommend properly earthed protection with numbers. A naysayer cannot.

An example of how *one*, using a power conditioner or UPS, proves why everyone must use one? "If using a power conditioner, then everyone should use one." Poor reading skills means reading what he wants to see. Not what is said. Demonstrated is how the naive *prove* something as necessary. He only read what he wants to see.


Yes, this is why Littelfuse, one of this biggest manufacturers of MOVs, has numbers that fully contradict your claims. You may want to work on your reading comprehension, grammar, and English, before bringing your stick to a gunfight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mena Xiao View Post
A surge protector is good to protect devices like home theater but can't improvement on audio quality at all. It is a publicity stunt. But you still need a surge protector, so learn to tell whether it is a good surge protector. My bestek surge protector has been used for half a year and it works fine.
You obviously have zero experience with quality power conditioners.

Last edited by BMill; 12-04-2017 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:00 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by BMill View Post
Yes, this is why Littelfuse, one of this biggest manufacturers of MOVs, has numbers that fully contradict your claims.

Had Littlefuse application notes been read with minimal comprehension, then what westom has posted is what Littlefuse (and other MOV manufacturers) states. Both weston and Littlefuse say same. Learn how to read plain and technical English; not what others ordered you to believe. Emotion never replaces facts with numbers.

If written logically, then relevant numbers are quoted. Numbers are ignored and facts are missing when one's reading and writing abilities are tainted by emotion. Subjective denials are routine when scams (not facts) are believed.

Power conditioning is often advocated when basic electrical knowledge is missing. Scams work because some cannot read simple technical English and fear facts with numbers. No numbers in a reply indicates one who is easily scammed. These urban myths even promote a wire knot as a power conditioner.

Near zero power conditioners and other scams are often promoted as *quality* when one can only deny and criticized; when one cannot state even one fact or number. Please learn how to comprehend what is written even by Littlefuse and others before posting subjective (and therefore inaccurate) denials.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:16 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by westom View Post

Had Littlefuse application notes been read with minimal comprehension, then what westom has posted is what Littlefuse (and other MOV manufacturers) states. Both weston and Littlefuse say same. Learn how to read plain and technical English; not what others ordered you to believe. Emotion never replaces facts with numbers.

If written logically, then relevant numbers are quoted. Numbers are ignored and facts are missing when one's reading and writing abilities are tainted by emotion. Subjective denials are routine when scams (not facts) are believed.

Power conditioning is often advocated when basic electrical knowledge is missing. Scams work because some cannot read simple technical English and fear facts with numbers. No numbers in a reply indicates one who is easily scammed. These urban myths even promote a wire knot as a power conditioner.

Near zero power conditioners and other scams are often promoted as *quality* when one can only deny and criticized; when one cannot state even one fact or number. Please learn how to comprehend what is written even by Littlefuse and others before posting subjective (and therefore inaccurate) denials.
Says the person that can't even spell Littelfuse or his own username correctly. It's obvious the person that now likes to refer to himself in the third person - westom in case you're confused - has poor reading comprehension, and lacks the ability to understand basic spec charts. You've been beaten so badly, you have to stoop to basic misdirection, to attempt to hide the fact that you've been proven wrong on almost every point.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:18 PM   #95
westom westom is offline
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Originally Posted by BMill View Post
Says the person that can't even spell Littelfuse or his own username correctly.
Again no facts, numbers, or honesty. The naive attack only what they understand: typos. In school, they were called "english nazis".
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