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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Music / Audiophiles > Blu-ray Music and High Quality Music

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Old 06-21-2009, 04:30 AM   #161
doctorsteve doctorsteve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Seventh Taylor View Post
There are really very few titles where the mix puts you in the middle of the orchestra pit. Most classical recordings actually use the surround channels in a very discreet way.

It's only in pop, rock and electronic music where the surround channels are typically used more prominently, but here a mix is anyway a soundscape artificially created on a mixing table (just as with the stereo mix). Personally, this is what I'm interested in most but that's also a question of taste.
Bjork uses a 5.1 setup pretty effectively, strongly separates the different voices spacially. but it's an effect I think she WANTS - not an accidental byproduct.
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:48 AM   #162
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I found this thread using the search feature to see what Blu-spec cd is. And I'm more confused after having read thru it.

Let me see if I understand this. Blu-spec cd is just like a regular cd but with less errors than a cd? And there is a blu-cd in the works?

I'm sorry if I'm missunderstanding. I thought a Blu-spec would work like a hybrid sacd in that it would play on a cd player, but would need a blu audio capable system for playback. So there isn't any increased resolution on a blu-spec cd? What a waste.

Is something like the Pixies boxset a blu-cd? I'm really confused on this. I just want a clear understanding because I plan on buying a new receiver and cd player in the near future and I want to be able to get the best sound possible.

From my understanding it sounds like SACD's are the best format. I figured dvd audio would have the potential to be better? I am seriously confused. It's almost enough to make me not want to upgrade. But right now I plan on getting a SACD and dvd-Audio player. I just don't understand why they're not taking advantage of blu-ray' s audio potential?
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:15 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KAT View Post
I found this thread using the search feature to see what Blu-spec cd is. And I'm more confused after having read thru it.

Let me see if I understand this. Blu-spec cd is just like a regular cd but with less errors than a cd? And there is a blu-cd in the works?

I'm sorry if I'm missunderstanding. I thought a Blu-spec would work like a hybrid sacd in that it would play on a cd player, but would need a blu audio capable system for playback. So there isn't any increased resolution on a blu-spec cd? What a waste.

Is something like the Pixies boxset a blu-cd? I'm really confused on this. I just want a clear understanding because I plan on buying a new receiver and cd player in the near future and I want to be able to get the best sound possible.
You are correct. Blu-spec CD is just a regular 44.1khz/16bit CD made a certain way that plays on any regular CD player. It's a total gimmick for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAT View Post
From my understanding it sounds like SACD's are the best format. I figured dvd audio would have the potential to be better? I am seriously confused. It's almost enough to make me not want to upgrade. But right now I plan on getting a SACD and dvd-Audio player. I just don't understand why they're not taking advantage of blu-ray' s audio potential?
The whole entire audio industry is complete mess, complicated with too many formats and mediums. All that's really needed for high-rez is 176.4khz/20bit. This is because it exceeds what any speaker or player can actually output (speaker max is about 50-70khz, player max is about 19 or 20bits). Anything beyond either threshold is pure marketing hype and nothing else. Unfortunately there is no such format that simply provides 176.4khz/20bit audio in multichannel and stereo. Instead we have DVD Audio (96khz/24bit PCM) and Super Audio CD that uses DSD (1bit 2.8MHz) which yields a real world frequency response of about 50khz, which is comparable to the 48khz a 96khz PCM sampling rate provides. DVD Audio offers 192khz/24bit but as stereo only.
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:51 PM   #164
Stereo24192 Stereo24192 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KAT View Post
I found this thread using the search feature to see what Blu-spec cd is. And I'm more confused after having read thru it.

Let me see if I understand this. Blu-spec cd is just like a regular cd but with less errors than a cd? And there is a blu-cd in the works?

I'm sorry if I'm missunderstanding. I thought a Blu-spec would work like a hybrid sacd in that it would play on a cd player, but would need a blu audio capable system for playback. So there isn't any increased resolution on a blu-spec cd? What a waste.

Is something like the Pixies boxset a blu-cd? I'm really confused on this. I just want a clear understanding because I plan on buying a new receiver and cd player in the near future and I want to be able to get the best sound possible.

From my understanding it sounds like SACD's are the best format. I figured dvd audio would have the potential to be better? I am seriously confused. It's almost enough to make me not want to upgrade. But right now I plan on getting a SACD and dvd-Audio player. I just don't understand why they're not taking advantage of blu-ray' s audio potential?
There are a few brave pioneers that are testing the waters with Blu-ray
as a music medium:

Neil Young
http://neilyoungarchives.com/

The norwegian record label 2L
http://www.2l.no/anm/2L_Blu-ray_BBC.pdf

German audiophile label Stockfish
http://www.stockfisch-records.de/stc...ckfisch_e.html

Surrround Records
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?studioid=51
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:55 PM   #165
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...and Rob Halford from Judas Priest has released a Blu-ray Audio only release.

Trent Reznor from nine inch nails also released a Blu-ray Audio only version of Ghosts.

Give it time, it's coming. The major labels will make a push once Blu-ray is in more people's homes.

Blu-spec CD is a waste of time though, I wouldn't bother with it. Same old 16-bit/44.1kHz rubbish.
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:25 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KAT View Post
I found this thread using the search feature to see what Blu-spec cd is. And I'm more confused after having read thru it.

Let me see if I understand this. Blu-spec cd is just like a regular cd but with less errors than a cd? And there is a blu-cd in the works?

I'm sorry if I'm missunderstanding. I thought a Blu-spec would work like a hybrid sacd in that it would play on a cd player, but would need a blu audio capable system for playback. So there isn't any increased resolution on a blu-spec cd? What a waste.

Is something like the Pixies boxset a blu-cd? I'm really confused on this. I just want a clear understanding because I plan on buying a new receiver and cd player in the near future and I want to be able to get the best sound possible.

From my understanding it sounds like SACD's are the best format. I figured dvd audio would have the potential to be better? I am seriously confused. It's almost enough to make me not want to upgrade. But right now I plan on getting a SACD and dvd-Audio player. I just don't understand why they're not taking advantage of blu-ray' s audio potential?
A Blu-spec cd as you call it is nothing more than a regular redbook cd made with a manufacturing process that slightly reduces the inherent jitter of the format.

The Pixies box set includes true Blu-ray audio at real high-resolution quality. For practical concerns the sound quality of SACD and DVD-audio are nearly identical, with some favoring one format slightly and others favoring the other format slightly. Blu-ray audio is nothing more really than a repackaging of the DVD-Audio format.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:46 PM   #167
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Is there an updated release date for the Pixies set? Do we know the specs yet?
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:59 AM   #168
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The discs in the Pixies set are not remastered.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:10 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Hwkn View Post
The discs in the Pixies set are not remastered.
That's a good thing though, the LP's are cut directly from the original analog master.

However the 5.1 24.192 mix is a new master, as no 5.1 mix has previously been done.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:13 AM   #170
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Does anyone know the specs/sources on the new Beatles CD and LP remasters?

John
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My personal motto: "Live Life! Leave A Legacy!"
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:20 AM   #171
Stereo24192 Stereo24192 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John72953 View Post
Does anyone know the specs/sources on the new Beatles CD and LP remasters?

John
Quote from a press release:

Re-mastering the Beatles catalogue

The re-mastering process commenced with an extensive period conducting tests before finally copying the analogue master tapes into the digital medium. When this was completed, the transfer was achieved using a Pro Tools workstation operating at 24 bit 192 kHz resolution via a Prism A-D converter. Transferring was a lengthy procedure done a track at a time. Although EMI tape does not suffer the oxide loss associated with some later analogue tapes, there was nevertheless a slight build up of dust, which was removed from the tape machine heads between each title.

From the onset, considerable thought was given to what audio restorative processes were going to be allowed. It was agreed that electrical clicks, microphone vocal pops, excessive sibilance and bad edits should be improved where possible, so long as it didn’t impact on the original integrity of the songs.

In addition, de-noising technology, which is often associated with re-mastering, was to be used, but subtly and sparingly. Eventually, less than five of the 525 minutes of Beatles music was subjected to this process. Finally, as is common with today’s music, overall limiting - to increase the volume level of the CD - has been used, but on the stereo versions only. However, it was unanimously agreed that because of the importance of The Beatles’ music, limiting would be used moderately, so as to retain the original dynamics of the recordings.

When all of the albums had been transferred, each song was then listened to several times to locate any of the agreed imperfections. These were then addressed by Guy Massey, working with Audio Restoration engineer Simon Gibson.

Mastering could now take place, once the earliest vinyl pressings, along with the existing CDs, were loaded into Pro Tools, thus allowing comparisons to be made with the original master tapes during the equalization process. When an album had been completed, it was auditioned the next day in studio three – a room familiar to the engineers, as all of the recent Beatles mixing projects had taken place in there – and any further alteration of EQ could be addressed back in the mastering room. Following the initial satisfaction of Guy and Steve, Allan Rouse and Mike Heatley then checked each new re-master in yet another location and offered any further suggestions. This continued until all 13 albums were completed to the team’s satisfaction."
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:41 AM   #172
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Well that confirms again that the Mono versions are the ones to own.
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:06 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
Well that confirms again that the Mono versions are the ones to own.
Thanks for the article Stereo24192...and yes, the MONO versions are the only ones I will be considering. Keep it real, keep it original, keep it MONO!

John
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Last edited by Johnny Vinyl; 07-30-2009 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:33 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John72953 View Post
Thanks for the article Stereo24192...and yes, the MONO versions are the only ones I will be considering. Keep it real, keep it original, keep it MONO!

John
There are strong rumors that the Beatles' remasters will eventually show up on Blu-ray in a year or two.
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Old 08-29-2009, 05:51 PM   #175
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Quote:
(speaker max is about 50-70khz, player max is about 19 or 20bits)
Huh? No speaker that I've ever heard of can reproduce anything close to 50KHz (except for those audio devices designed to keep insects and rodents out of your house, but they probably don't go much beyond 25KHz) and even if it could, the figure is meaningless unless it's associated with a given SPL. (If it's down 30db at 50Khz, you're not hearing it anyway, even if you could hear 50KHz.) Besides, it's a waste of amplifier power to be driving speakers at frequencies that you can't hear anyway and it will heat up the voice coils in the speakers, which will result in worse sound.

Human hearing (in kids) extends to about 22KHz. Adults (especially those living in cities) are lucky if they can hear 15KHz, although sometimes hearing loss will result in keeping high frequencies, but losing mid-high frequencies. Women generally have better high-frequency hearing than men.

As for bit-length, a player either uses the bit length or it doesn't. Redbook (standard CD) audio used 16 bit words. If you have a player that can be switched to higher rates (as I do) and you switch, you'll hear garbage and the reverse is true as well. So the player bit rate has to be matched to the recording. It's not a variable. If you have a 96/24 recording, it must be played back at 24 bits. It won't play back at 23 bits, 25 bits, 16 bits or anything else.

in fact, in digital audio, when a recording has very low levels and therefore, doesn't use all the bits, that's a problem and causes artifacts. That's why the concept of dither noise was introduced. It's to force all the bits in a digital word to be used.
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Old 08-29-2009, 05:58 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
Huh? No speaker that I've ever heard of can reproduce anything close to 50KHz (except for those audio devices designed to keep insects and rodents out of your house, but they probably don't go much beyond 25KHz) and even if it could, the figure is meaningless unless it's associated with a given SPL. (If it's down 30db at 50Khz, you're not hearing it anyway, even if you could hear 50KHz.) Besides, it's a waste of amplifier power to be driving speakers at frequencies that you can't hear anyway and it will heat up the voice coils in the speakers, which will result in worse sound.

Human hearing (in kids) extends to about 22KHz. Adults (especially those living in cities) are lucky if they can hear 15KHz, although sometimes hearing loss will result in keeping high frequencies, but losing mid-high frequencies. Women generally have better high-frequency hearing than men.

As for bit-length, a player either uses the bit length or it doesn't. Redbook (standard CD) audio used 16 bit words. If you have a player that can be switched to higher rates (as I do) and you switch, you'll hear garbage and the reverse is true as well. So the player bit rate has to be matched to the recording. It's not a variable. If you have a 96/24 recording, it must be played back at 24 bits. It won't play back at 23 bits, 25 bits, 16 bits or anything else.

in fact, in digital audio, when a recording has very low levels and therefore, doesn't use all the bits, that's a problem and causes artifacts. That's why the concept of dither noise was introduced. It's to force all the bits in a digital word to be used.
Hi ZoetMB!

Do share some more with us. It seems like you're quite knowledgeable in this area.

John
John - I love the smell of vinyl in the morning!
My personal motto: "Live Life! Leave A Legacy!"
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:07 AM   #177
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I never got a chance to opine of the 96 vs 192 debate, but I would like to throw in my 2 cents.

As in any music topic, it is subjective.

However, I think Dan the engineer is not looking at it the right way.

Music and sound are continuous in real life. Essentially, an infinite number of samples per second. In a way, this is part of the theory behind SACD.

Yes, there is no need to record or playback frequencies much above 25K or so, but that isn't the point of increased sampling. The point is an ever-smoothed sound wave.

As you down size the sampling rate, the wave becomes more jagged and less like the infinitely smooth actual sound wave.

To my ear, only recordings I've heard, done well, in 192k begin to approximate the nature of live sound.

Also, these days, who cares about disc space? There is plenty I would guess to have a 2 TRACK recording stored on BD in 32 bit 384k.

So, Dan is chasing the wrong rainbow. Just like the Weezer engineer I once talked to about this very thing in a recording studio. His idea was, "Well, we don't do anything above 48k because in rock you'd never hear the difference anyway."
Here are my 2 cents:

I think a lot of people are confused in this debate because 192k was essentially developped for recording, processing and mixing purposes. The higher your sampling and bitrate, the less the rounding errors will impact your final mix. Let's not forget that most studios process nearly everything digitally. There are still a few diehards that will use analog processes and mixing - which is wonderful - but much more expensive.

So I must agree with Dan. 48k/24 is great as a final product. Beyond this you are looking at very expensive equipment to reveal the difference, and I am not yet talking about the actual ability for some ears to discern it. It would take equipment from mastering studio-grade to tell the difference, and we are talking very high-end speakers, converters, amplification, and last but not least, very expensive room accoustic treatment.

And believe me, the way the music has been recorded and mixed is WAY more important than the sample rate of the final product.

Regards, Scan
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Last edited by scanachick; 08-31-2009 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 09-09-2009, 01:20 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by w_tanoto View Post
i'll stick with the device called compact disc, thank you. no thanks to sacd and blu-cd and dvd-a
You're missing out. Trust me.

I'm repeatedly blown away by the amazing sounds and quality I get from my few SACD's. I STILL stop once in a while and think "Wha? What was that? I've never heard THAT before???"
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Old 09-09-2009, 01:42 PM   #179
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You know... all I really want is to be able to buy the new Mars Volta or Radiohead album on a Blu disc - come home - put it in my Blu-ray player, and get knocked on my arse by high-def, power-packed sound. Is that too much to ask???
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:11 PM   #180
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Quote:
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Huh? No speaker that I've ever heard of can reproduce anything close to 50KHz
You need to look at more high end speakers then!
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