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Old 07-21-2011, 10:43 PM   #41
Torrente Torrente is offline
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OK so I think we all got your point here but I want to say (with my bad english) that I think it's too "black or white" without any "grey area".
In what you're saying and in the list itself too.

Take my example.
I live in France where a cool french editor edits HK movies since the beginning of the DVD area.
I have the chance to get most of those films on DVD with a good PQ, right OAR, great packaging (digipacks, digibooks, etc), bonus materials created only for those editions thanks to some of their teams who work in HK and with Tsui Hark etc.
I bought most of them already.
I have enough room to keep 2 different TV. One flat Full HD panel, and an old 4/3 Sony CRT.

--> I love HK cinema, I love the movies. But I also love the different format that make me discover them so I own them on VHS, LD and DVD.

Now I'm not incredibly rich.
Blu Ray is a step forward.
I need to know if the Blu Rays are worth the new investment.

OK making a list may be too harsh, with no "grey area", but it's a good way for me to know if I "double/triple/quadruple dip" or not.

And the idea that I buy an upconvert with wrong AR is a no go for me.
As I have an old CRT and the DVDs already.
When I compare Crime Story or Prison on Fire... yes I prefer the look of the Remastered Fortune Star or HK Video edition on my CRT than the look of the Blu Ray on my flat panel.

I already felt that I've been robbed by buying those Blu Rays.
It's why I need to be sure now.
It's why I would appreciate some precise reviews with screenshots for City on Fire, and Once Upon a Time in China & America for instance.

But I understand what you mean, and I respect that.
And you're right when you say that nobody feels the same in front of the same transfer.
It's so subjective that we can't agree. But it's a step. A first clue. And it's better with screens... although it wouldn't replace the fact of seing the movie ourselves.

I hope I was clear.
Sorry again for my bad english.
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:10 AM   #42
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Once again . . .

This thread originated under the premise that any "upscaled" discs were to be avoided. That meant there was NO consideration of film merit, original aspect ratio, or audio quality. Have people read this thread thoroughly? What followed were two lists: "SD quality" discs and "Real HD Transfer" discs. Note the use of red (read: evil) and blue (read: good) type in the heads (just as subtly used by director Steven Soderbergh's Traffic). The implicit directive of this list is that based on PQ alone those titles under the red heading are BAD and should not be bought. Really?

Then what followed was some disagreement about what an "upscaled" blu-ray disc was and what passed for an HD disc. I still don't know what to think. I do know that if anybody reads that list and decides to buy Final Justice and misses out on Peking Opera Blues, they are nuts.

But I guess this thread will go on and on. I just hope the list creator will start a thread that judges all those discs based on faithfulness toward the OAR. Another one on the original Dolby 2.0 soundtrack? Or perhaps one based on the creation of a lossy 7.1 DTS track (with replacement gunshots similar to those that ruined the original HK Better Tomorrow DVDs)?

Please, stop justifying this list. Read the reviews. Not a list. No review yet. Have some patience. Or find a pen-pal from HK with deep pockets. But bury this list. But I get it. Some of you have fallen in love with crystal clear HD pictures. "Ooh, I like pretty pictures." Let me give you a word of advice: forget about classic HK cinema and pre-order Avatar 2. Forget about The French Connection, too. Billy Friedkin liked grime too much.

I disagree also on this: This thread is about HK cinema. You cannot separate the film from the presentation. And I don't think it helps if this forum is going to be treated like some "insider's club." There are no secret handshakes. I am not going to assume a reader owns previous versions of these movies nor that this thread is for those "in the know." If that were true, this list wouldn't have been created in the first place.

Last edited by Brown; 07-22-2011 at 04:12 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:31 AM   #43
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If I agree on almost everything you say, I totally disagree on this "pretty blu" thing that you're saying.
I'm not a moron.
And I'm sure a lot of the people who are searching for this kind of info, aren't either.
I love the movies. I also love each format for what they can give.
LD, DVD, HD DVD and Blu Ray.

My point is, if the remastered dvd which I can have for 5$ or less on DDDHouse is almost the same as the Blu Ray which is 3 times the DVD's price, I want to know it as I still have a CRT to enjoy my old editions on previous format.

This is what I want.
I'm not talking about HK preservation, I'm not talking about movie quality.
I know well about that.
And if I buy a movie it's because I love it. I'm not a stupid anorak that loves the HD quality of Avatar and thinks that every movie should look the same.

And yes, my bad, I don't care about audio and bonus material when I buy a disc. I just care about the picture. But it's probably because I don't have a great audio equipment.
And I don't feel there is enough cropping between 1.78 and 1.85 to prevent me from buying a disc. I hate pan & scan, I hate to get a 1.78 transfer of a 2.35 movie, but 1.85 to 1.78 is ok by me. Guess I'm not a purist but I remember quite well discovering so many HK movies on some old awfully fuzzy cropped VHS (which you're right, didn't prevent me from falling in love with a lot of the movies I discovered that way)

But I don't think this list is enough.
I also need to read your reviews (which are good and precise), DragonLee's reviews (which are often useful but too kind), Toad's reviews, Xradman's advices and I also need screenshots.
But that is not the purpose of this thread.

For example, I find the screenshots of Tiger on Beat to be too DNRed for me. I might pick the Fortune Star Remastered DVD for 4$ instead... But it's just me. And again I wouldn't if I didn't still have a CRT... And I wouldn't be able to make my mind without screenshots and reviews.

(one day someone will give me a link to some screenshots and reviews of City on Fire and Once upon a time in China & America )

Last edited by Torrente; 07-22-2011 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:12 AM   #44
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I for one am grateful for this topic as it helps people like me who already have many of these movies to make an educated decision as to whether I should upgrade my current version of them or not.

I also believe people who come upon this topic are not looking for an opinion on the movie itself. They just want to know whether the disc is worth their hard earned money. If i can get some of these movies on DVD that are actually an upgrade in one area (ie. original mono), why would I bother spending the extra money?

Importing is not something I believe that casual movie buyers would take part in either. When somebody imports a movie, they have already done their research prior to making their purchase so they know what they are getting. This is just another tool like a movie review that can be utilized at the user's discretion.

I think a clear distinction has been made that the way the list is been organized is not a reflection of the movie itself but merely the disc which it is on.
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:31 AM   #45
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Okay, and I will be gentle here.

First, City On Fire looks very good on blu-ray. I would not hesitate. Just my opinion, however.

Look, I understand looking to reviews when deciding what to upgrade or even purchasing the DVD if there is a significant price difference. However, this list strictly judges one company's releases by subjective criteria for which there isn't even agreement on this very thread. And to ignore cropping makes this list seem even more superficial. Yes, it makes it seem that all that matters is the "prettiness" of the picture. Please, as the saying goes, "Don't be that guy" (or gal). Unlike with many Hollywood films where the move from 1.85 to 1.78 is simply opening up the matte (thus exposing more space usually at the top and bottom), HK films are cropped at the sides. This is not a minor thing.

The funny thing is: I am about the most critical person when it comes to these Fortune Star discs. Read my reviews. I hate the cropping. I am not happy that Bullet In The Head is a mess. But I love those films, and despite it all, EVERY HK blu-ray I own is an upgrade from the DVD. And, as I have said before, a blu-ray disc is reported to be much more resistant to damage than DVDs so it's a better purchase in the long run anyway.

Just throwing these titles on a list is lazy. And it may indeed keep a newcomer from seeing some fantastic movies. And it may stop other catalog releases from being released on blu-ray. Remember, despite one's fondness and enthusiasm for HK cinema, it remains a niche market. They still sell VCDs. If these discs don't sell well, you won't see The Iceman Cometh or (your HK favorite here) on blu-ray.

Last edited by Brown; 07-22-2011 at 02:39 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:07 AM   #46
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The picture quality on Wheels On Meals or Eastern Condors is not "an upgrade".
Added new foley sound effects to a film is not " an upgrade" either.
We know these films are great, no argument there, but this list isnt lazy, throwing out a crap release which is an upscale with new messed up soundtracks is lazy and i want to know these things before i purchase anything.
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:36 PM   #47
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I may point out that I was the one that introduced the fact that many of these titles have incorrect OAR. As for re-created audio, that was a comment about past DVDs. This list was not established with those criteria; it ignored them and simply is about PQ.

Do some of you people comprehend what you are reading?

And this list does not explain the faults of each title. It simply is a "good" and "bad" list. And there continues to be disagreement whether some of those titles even belong in one category or the other.

If you have an ax to grind, fine. But admit it. And stop trying to to rationalize this list. Make something else. Check the reviews and create a thread to give the readers something worthwhile. Not this garbage. Enough already.

Last edited by Brown; 07-22-2011 at 04:48 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:53 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drees5761 View Post
The picture quality on Wheels On Meals or Eastern Condors is not "an upgrade".
Added new foley sound effects to a film is not " an upgrade" either.
We know these films are great, no argument there, but this list isnt lazy, throwing out a crap release which is an upscale with new messed up soundtracks is lazy and i want to know these things before i purchase anything.
I guess I also wouldn't use the term "upgrade" so freely anymore when describing these Fortune Star blu-rays. An upgrade on an airplane is like getting moved from a coach seat to a first class seat. A Fortune Star blu-ray that improves upon the best English-subtitled DVD version is like getting moved from a coach seat right next to a smelly bathroom to a coach seat not next to a smelly bathroom. Not quite an upgrade, but a better seat.
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:13 PM   #49
Dragon Lee Dragon Lee is offline
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contrary to the general belief here, an SD upscale on a BD is automatically an improvement over a DVD, therefore making it an "upgrade". End of discussion.
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:33 PM   #50
Torrente Torrente is offline
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- Unless you have a CRT or tri-tube to enjoy the old good fashion way (and the only way that is "right") your old DVD.

But you're right, if one's put a DVD in a DVD player directly on a flat panel, every Blu Ray is an upscale.
And as wise Pro-B once said: "Upscaled SDVD content is not identical to standard definition content placed on a Blu-ray. So, a Blu-ray is better. "

But again, sometimes a DVD is still better, if no audio manipulations applied, if no filtering applied, if no color filters removed, or if no cropping applied.
We can't only consider the picture prettyness but also the fact that a DVD might be more true to the original source / release of a film.

Last edited by Torrente; 07-22-2011 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:48 PM   #51
pro-bassoonist pro-bassoonist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drees5761 View Post
We know these films are great, no argument there, but this list isnt lazy, throwing out a crap release which is an upscale with new messed up soundtracks is lazy and i want to know these things before i purchase anything.
Actually, the list is very misleading. Aside from a couple of titles (most notably the Police Story discs), all of the "upscaled" Blu-rays are superior to the SDVDs, including such problematic releases as Prison on Fire 1 & 2.

Really, the more I am looking at some of the comments posted in this thread, the clearer becomes that the people who are arguing that the Blu-rays do not represent an "upgrade" either do not own the SDVD AND the Blu-rays and have never compared them (and I do not mean looking at screencaptures), OR are watching their discs on very small screens/monitors (under 40').

One last time, upscaled SDVD content is not identical to SD content placed on Blu-ray.

Pro-B
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:21 PM   #52
Brown Brown is offline
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Gee, where were you guys the last few days?
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:46 AM   #53
Torrente Torrente is offline
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Yeah I totally agree with you Pro-B.

But what I think is the most awkward (stupid?) is people who persist to look at their 720 x 480's DVDs on their 1920 x 1080's HD TVS and complain about the result, or claim that Blu Ray are better looking.
That just makes me laugh.
Of course Blu Ray will look better

Don't need to talk about small screen, just talk about the "right" screen to look at the "right" format on them, that's all.
Don't need to be small, just need to support the "right" resolution
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:04 PM   #54
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Thanks for starting this thread, Eidolon.

Boggles my mind the sort of discussion it sparked - while it's one of the most informative threads on the Asian sub forum. I already own hundreds of HK-movies on dvd and am only interested in making the expense of upgrading if the transfer is truly from a HD-source - the opening post gives a handy list.
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:30 PM   #55
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So you don't care about AOR? Replacement sound effects? Or any of the other problems inherent with "the list"?

God, I feared this day would arrive, and this thread would be resurrrected. The above is all I will add. I give up.
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Old 10-19-2011, 03:48 PM   #56
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He cares about the info in this thread so he doesn't care about anything else? That's some ace logic there. He probably doesn't give a damn about the rest of life and the world either, they're not on the list.
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:35 PM   #57
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I won't trade insults. Yes, the thread has provided some useful information, but my point has always been this: the list itself is subjective and superficial.

I hope that people remain civil and good-natured here.

Last edited by Brown; 10-19-2011 at 07:36 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 01-07-2012, 02:00 PM   #58
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Just to let you know that I received the Blu Rays of City on Fire and Once Upon a Time in China & America, thanks to the cheap K&R sale on DDDHouse and they are worth the purchase.
You were right, they aren't upscaled.

I trusted you and have nothing to complain about!

Thank you very much
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