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Old 03-07-2012, 01:49 AM   #401
Paul H Paul H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big3dfan View Post
It doesnt explain how Bluray player can cause cross talk....infact its very easy to eliminate the bluray disk+player as source of cross talk by just setting the display to be in 2D mode (for example my 3010 has this option)....if there is still double image, then its from bluray disk or player....there is no evidence of this I have seen so far !
Bypassing the cause by setting the display for 2D mode (disabling 3D) doesn't eliminate a potential for 3D crosstalk when the 3D processing is enabled.

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Old 03-07-2012, 02:11 AM   #402
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Bypassing the cause by setting the display for 2D mode (disabling 3D) doesn't eliminate a potential for 3D crosstalk when the 3D processing is enabled.

Paul
C’mon Paul. Read my previous post.

This ‘Blu-ray player’ discourse is about as much as relevant to the topic of discussion (the cause of ghosting in Hugo 3D) as saving a row-interleaved image in JPEG format for the production of the digital master exhibited at the industry screening at the Regal which Marty S., Bob R. and Thelma S. attended…as a cause.

I see it only as a distraction for people who are trying to learn…..why.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:35 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
C’mon Paul. Read my previous post.

This ‘Blu-ray player’ discourse is about as much as relevant to the topic of discussion (the cause of ghosting in Hugo 3D) as saving a row-interleaved image in JPEG format for the production of the digital master exhibited at the industry screening at the Regal which Marty S., Bob R. and Thelma S. attended…as a cause.

I see it only as a distraction for people who are trying to learn…..why.
Didn't see your post on the bottom of the last page.
IMO, the ghosting that is experienced in Hugo 3D is dependent on the display and glasses as stated throughout this thread.

Paul
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:49 AM   #404
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I watched this on a Epson 6010 projector Oppo 93 BD player, using Monster 3D glasses (although I tried the Epson and PS3 glasses as well with similar results). I noticed moderate crosstalk - maybe a good 12-15 instances, some of which was distracting. Even so, the movie was good and the 3D scenes without the crosstalk issue was excellent. Overall a good experience. This movie had by far the most crosstalk on my system of any 3D movie I've seen to date. I've watched about a dozen 3D movies. On most of them I don't notice any crosstalk.

Last edited by ricwhite; 03-07-2012 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:01 AM   #405
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Because 3D glasses can't completely block out ALL light, ghosting exists, and is most obvious in shots where the 3D is strong (lots of distance between each layer versus being subtle, flat like a piece of paper). The triple image of ghosting becomes visible especially when there are strong contrasts in color, from black, immediately to white, like a star in a field of outer space.

Hugo made the right choice with its 3D, overlooking the limitations of the present technology (glasses that can't completely block out all light in the opposing eye) and focusing on the future of 3D, where all light will be blocked out completely, the days when glasses will no longer be needed (already in development).
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:25 AM   #406
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I have a Sony Bravia 3Dtv, and will be using a Ps3. Has anybody watched this using that hardware with good results?
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:00 PM   #407
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Watched part of this again on my new HMZ. Gorgeous. Seeing it on a really "big screen" with zero cross talk showcases how amazing this movie really looks. As a demo, I think it's the new king. At least in the live action category.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:14 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by snappahead View Post
Watched part of this again on my new HMZ. Gorgeous. Seeing it on a really "big screen" with zero cross talk showcases how amazing this movie really looks. As a demo, I think it's the new king. At least in the live action category.
Agreed.
Zero ghosting allows you to enjoy the masterpiece unfold with no distraction. It becomes pure live action 3D eye candy. Scorsese takes 3D to another level of art with his talented skills in this one.

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Old 03-07-2012, 04:25 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
GregK, from another forum provides further information:....
Andrew Woods published a paper on the two terms of ghosting and crosstalk and their usage in regards to stereoscopics: Herel
Interesting to see that apparently people from other forums are actually watching the YouTube clips posted on this forum, namely, in this case, the one showing Andrew and his colleague, John posted days ago….

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....le#post5851987

and then goggling his name to find pertinent papers he’s written on the subject. At least they’re reading us …..despite the lack of acknowledgment. If GregK is seriously interested in display technology (other than for just 3D), you might suggest to him The Journal of Electronic Imaging to the right on this page….

http://spie.org/x2408.xml

Cutting-edge papers are published in there before they make it to the internet in pdf form and you can even contact the author to send you a reprint.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
Didn't see your post on the bottom of the last page.
IMO, the ghosting that is experienced in Hugo 3D is dependent on the display and glasses as stated throughout this thread.

Paul
Well yes (and no problem on the missed post ), but I think most informed people here knew that already and did so long before Hugo 3D came to Blu-ray. I mean, look at all the past active vs. passive monitor debates and now those happy DLP owners and SONY head-mounted display folks beaming with ghost-free confidence all the time.

What I was getting at in my previous post was that some cinematographic content can really stress 3D display devices…..and front projection, for that matter. Even the industry screening which I attended had some slight ghosting, which I’m sure Marty and Bob Richardson were not happy about but, like they said during the Q & A, this motion picture was a learning experience for them also.

Some types of displays can successfully meet almost any cinematographic challenge with no ghosting, whereas others, come up short, i.e. show various degrees of ghosting.

So that begs the question, what type of cinematographic content stresses 3D displays to cause them to be more predisposed to exhibit ghosting?
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:44 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by Zivouhr View Post
Because 3D glasses can't completely block out ALL light, ghosting exists, and is most obvious in shots where the 3D is strong (lots of distance between each layer versus being subtle, flat like a piece of paper). The triple image of ghosting becomes visible especially when there are strong contrasts in color, from black, immediately to white, like a star in a field of outer space.

Hugo made the right choice with its 3D, overlooking the limitations of the present technology (glasses that can't completely block out all light in the opposing eye) and focusing on the future of 3D, where all light will be blocked out completely, the days when glasses will no longer be needed (already in development).
You’re on the right track, see the first paragraph here…
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....st#post5856057

and ghosting can be a problem with strong backlighting (like in Hugo) even when the depth budget is not that significant.

The filmmakers presumed that the ghosting they were creating (especially with the backlighting) could be ‘corrected’ in post as well as being ‘managed’ by any properly calibrated exhibition device….be it theatrical or home theater. As people can see, and have said, that was not entirely the case….it has been very challenging for some home theater owner’s displays and it was actually visible by me and others (albeit to a very slight degree) at the quintessential industry screening in which a digital master timed for 15fL was exhibited for the onlookers as well as at your local Multiplex….
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....ng#post5698391

^ where a general release digital master timed for 5fL was used everywhere else in the country.

But, to keep things in perspective, that’s not to take away from the fact that this motion picture is a milestone in 3D ….
http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/robe...lm-vs-digital/

Bottom line, the 3D disc is not ‘mastered’ improperly and in those cases in which people have been seeing ghosting on some other 3DBD titles in the past, the overwhelming likelihood is that, neither were they.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:35 AM   #412
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Watched it today and I really loved it! It got off to quite a slow start and I was losing interest, but once the characters were fleshed out a bit it really picked up. It was a very touching movie and a great nod to the formative years of cinema. As others have already said the 3D is not just there, but thoroughly integrated into the movie. The detail was really crisp too, there was a ton of detail and texture throughout the movie. It was really well done!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spanky87 View Post
I have a Sony Bravia 3Dtv, and will be using a Ps3. Has anybody watched this using that hardware with good results?
I have a 55" Bravia with PS3 and there was some minimal ghosting but it did not detract from the enjoyment at all. It was mainly limited to a bit of ghosting around the head of the main character (the boy) in some of the darker scenes. Actually I was surprised there was so little ghosting because there are a lot of dark scenes in the movie that are typically prime territory for ghosting.
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:24 AM   #413
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I just got this film in the mail today, and agree with all the positive reviews.

I will also add that there was some ghosting on my Panasonic 50ST30. The ghosting only distracted me once, which was during Ben Kingsley's final scene in the film. Prior to that, ghosting would rear it's ugly head on the lesser side of periodic, and disappear as quickly as it appeared. However, the trade-off was a 2-hour film that creates a complete 3D world to the current best of it's ability. The 3D is used differently than Avatar, but equally as effective. In fact, I'd even argue that Hugo's use of 3D is superior to Avatar.

If you like movies, and if you are interested in the history of movies, than this movie is a gift. It is easily my favorite 3D BD that I have seen and/or own.

For reference, these are the 3D BDs in my collection (no particular order):

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The Lion King
Drive Angry
Step Up 3D
Final Destination (4)
Imax: Under the Sea
Imax: Hubble
Tangled
Toy Story 3
Legend of the Guardians
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:52 AM   #414
joenostalgia23 joenostalgia23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
You’re on the right track, see the first paragraph here…
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....st#post5856057

and ghosting can be a problem with strong backlighting (like in Hugo) even when the depth budget is not that significant.

The filmmakers presumed that the ghosting they were creating (especially with the backlighting) could be ‘corrected’ in post as well as being ‘managed’ by any properly calibrated exhibition device….be it theatrical or home theater. As people can see, and have said, that was not entirely the case….it has been very challenging for some home theater owner’s displays and it was actually visible by me and others (albeit to a very slight degree) at the quintessential industry screening in which a digital master timed for 15fL was exhibited for the onlookers as well as at your local Multiplex….
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....ng#post5698391

^ where a general release digital master timed for 5fL was used everywhere else in the country.

But, to keep things in perspective, that’s not to take away from the fact that this motion picture is a milestone in 3D ….
http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/robe...lm-vs-digital/

Bottom line, the 3D disc is not ‘mastered’ improperly and in those cases in which people have been seeing ghosting on some other 3DBD titles in the past, the overwhelming likelihood is that, neither were they.
The 3D really seems dependent on the display. And because it's 3D is so strong, it's exceptionally difficult for it to look good on 3DTV, especially in these early years.
I saw some significant ghosting when viewing it theatrically as well, but for the most part, the picture looked great and it wasn't too distracting.

On Blu-ray, I've seen absolutely no crosstalk/ghosting on my TV, which makes me very happy. It looks better than it did in theaters.

That said, everyone's experience is dependent on their screen and glasses.
With active shutter, ghosting can be a result of the glasses and screen not being 100% in sync. Or the glasses aren't dark enough. Or the screen isn't the right brightness. In theaters, I experienced crosstalk, and that was with a passive screen, so it is possible with passive displays as well.

However, the player will likely never be at fault for any issues with a film's 3D. It's more likely to do with the disc's mastering than the player, but even then, it'd be impossible for the 3D to be tested on EVERY TV model, EVERY brand of glasses at EVERY possible distance and angle.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:24 PM   #415
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I watched Hugo last night; rented it from my local Family Video. I thought it was great. The 3D was never POP in your face but created so many different layers, it created a reality to the movie. Hopefully, filmmakers will see this movie and realize that 3D doesn't have to be all about gimmicks and things popping out of the TV to be used effectively to enhance the story. Well done.

Oh, and I never noticed any ghosting or crosstalk at all on my set-up.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:49 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by joenostalgia23 View Post
The 3D really seems dependent on the display. And because it's 3D is so strong, it's exceptionally difficult for it to look good on 3DTV, especially in these early years.
I saw some significant ghosting when viewing it theatrically as well, but for the most part, the picture looked great and it wasn't too distracting.

On Blu-ray, I've seen absolutely no crosstalk/ghosting on my TV, which makes me very happy. It looks better than it did in theaters.

That said, everyone's experience is dependent on their screen and glasses.
With active shutter, ghosting can be a result of the glasses and screen not being 100% in sync. Or the glasses aren't dark enough. Or the screen isn't the right brightness. In theaters, I experienced crosstalk, and that was with a passive screen, so it is possible with passive displays as well.

However, the player will likely never be at fault for any issues with a film's 3D. It's more likely to do with the disc's mastering than the player, but even then, it'd be impossible for the 3D to be tested on EVERY TV model, EVERY brand of glasses at EVERY possible distance and angle.
I’ve viewed Hugo, in both types of theatrical settings and, on the contrary, I would describe the ghosting as ‘slight’ rather than “significant”. Don’t quite understand why you saw what you did. I do notice you’re in SoCal, what theater showed “significant” ghosting and were you seated in a more or less optimal position for 3D viewing? Was it shown on a white or silver screen?

Anyway, display specific masters are indeed produced and 'tested', at least on a theatrical level. After the TIFF files are rendered, RealD masters and Dolby masters are made which are sent to the respective theater as RealD or Dolby 3D DCPs. Past experience has shown slight ghosting at both theatrical type venues with occasional 3D movies (including Hugo)…despite the display specific mastering. Point being as I’ve said previously, normally, the precipitating factor in all of this (whether the ghosting is ultimately visually noticed at the theatrical or home theater level) is the principal photography. A little on-set aid which some filmmakers use is to keep a black and white checkerboard in the center of the stage as an indicator for potential ghosting problems with the footage.

High contrast images can be difficult to handle by any conventional front projection or flat panel display device, depending on how much the cinematographer and stereographer *push it*, so to speak. Although some displays are better than others, no system is perfect as there will always be leakage from one channel to another. High contrast shots at the screen plane won’t generate any ghosting because the right and left images perfectly overlap on the screen. If the filmmaker keeps pushing the parameters, i.e. increasing the depth budget (big parallax) in a shot with high contrast, it will eventually precipitate ghosting, which is why it is recommended to filmmakers to either stay within certain depth disparity boundaries during the shooting or else make sure that both ends of your depth budget (the extreme background and the extreme foreground) have soft lighting in order to completely avoid the chance of ghosting during all types of exhibition.
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Last edited by Penton-Man; 03-12-2012 at 01:52 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:39 AM   #417
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The problem with this movie is it is the type that makes you care less of the story and more of its technical presentation.
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:14 AM   #418
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I can't recall all scenes but I do remember the scene with Cohen's leaning into the audience.

I think the hardware that Krikorian uses, some Korean system with horizontal polarization, doesn't work as well with different viewing angles. We sat a little bit closer than the center, but most of the shots looks great. I remember that if I tilted my head at the right angles, I wouldnt see ghosting.
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:06 AM   #419
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Minor spoilers as I'm talking about appearances of crosstalk.

Panasonic setup with a GT30, BD310 and 3rd gen glasses. I noticed ghosting in 3 separate occasions: early on in the film on some statues outside of Isabelle's house as she and Hugo were on their way to it, on Hugo's face after they start the automaton, and again on Hugo's face after he wakes up from the first part of his nightmare. For those last two, the secondary image was quite significant despite there being very little 3D effect going on at the time. I found that quite odd.

Except for the dog sequence where it was sort of running at the camera, the 3D was absolutely phenomenal. As for the movie itself, I really liked it, but I think upon a few more viewings, I'm going to love it.
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:56 PM   #420
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I'm a bit confused about the Bluray.com review. He gave the video quality of the Hugo 3D Blu-ray 5 out of 5...but then at the end of the review says extreme ghosting that is distracting.

How can a 3D Blu-ray with extreme ghosting that is distracting receive a 5 out of 5?
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