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Old 03-23-2012, 07:49 PM   #1
Schultzy Schultzy is offline
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Default AVR upgrade help...

I am looking at finally upgrading from my Onkyo 605 and want to spend less than $500. You can see my setup in my gallery. I have a 5.1 setup with all Infinity speakers and a Velodyne sub. Also, using a Pioneer Elite 768p HDTV with a Pioneer 320 BDP and Directv HD DVR.

Right now I am looking at the Pioneer 1121 and the Denon 1912. They are about the same price. I'm also considering stepping down from those two models to things like the Pioneer 921 to save money. Seems like I'd be losing some power per channel and the THX Select 2. Not sure if thats a good idea or worth the extra $.

Any opinions are very much appreciated.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:10 PM   #2
frogmort frogmort is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultzy View Post
I am looking at finally upgrading from my Onkyo 605 and want to spend less than $500. You can see my setup in my gallery. I have a 5.1 setup with all Infinity speakers and a Velodyne sub. Also, using a Pioneer Elite 768p HDTV with a Pioneer 320 BDP and Directv HD DVR.

Right now I am looking at the Pioneer 1121 and the Denon 1912. They are about the same price. I'm also considering stepping down from those two models to things like the Pioneer 921 to save money. Seems like I'd be losing some power per channel and the THX Select 2. Not sure if thats a good idea or woth the extra $.

Any opinions are very much appreciated.
Not sure if you would be intersested in a refurbished receiver, but I just bought an Onkyo 809 from accessories4less last night. They are manufacturer refurbished and most of them come with a one year warranty, and you can buy an extended warranty for not much.

They have great prices. You can get the Denon 1912 for only $350, or you could step up to the 2112 for only $450. The 2112 has Audyssey MultEQ XT, and several other upgrades.

Edit: hometheater.com has some great reviews and lab measures on lots of receivers, if you're interested.
Joe

Last edited by frogmort; 03-23-2012 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:58 PM   #3
Schultzy Schultzy is offline
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While researching the Pioneer 1021 and 1121 vs the Denon 1912, I notice that the Denon is seems to be considered the "better" AVR based on sound alone. I also notice the Pioneer is packing more watts per channel (90 vs 120). Is the lower wattage to the speakers really noticeable?

I guess it comes down to if the Pioneer is worth an extra $ to get video upconversion, THX certification, and more watts per channel. Any opinions?
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:43 PM   #4
Cooley Cooley is offline
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Great that you took the time to look at Denon and Pioneer and evaluate the models.

IMHO, not Denon. I don't know how to say it but Denon appears to be 'sluggish' for your old-school traditional Infinity speakers.

Pioneer in general is soft sound, listening CD is okay, but e.g. gunshot in the movies lost that 'bang' literally.

If you like to carry on the Onkyo power feeling, with a bit warmth, then Harman Kardon AVR 2650 or 3650. American matching American, a safe bet.
(Isn't Infinity also under Harman now?)

If you like a new experience with a good match, then Yamaha basic Adventage e.g. RX-A710, A1010. Yamaha's brightness can bring more out of Infinity old-school high frequency treble.

Regards.
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:12 PM   #5
solarrdadd solarrdadd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultzy View Post
While researching the Pioneer 1021 and 1121 vs the Denon 1912, I notice that the Denon is seems to be considered the "better" AVR based on sound alone. I also notice the Pioneer is packing more watts per channel (90 vs 120). Is the lower wattage to the speakers really noticeable?

I guess it comes down to if the Pioneer is worth an extra $ to get video upconversion, THX certification, and more watts per channel. Any opinions?
i'd say it depends on your speaker sensitivity rating, the volume level and source materials as well as the size of the room.

if your speakers are in the upper 90's for sensitivity, you should be alright as long as your not trying to pressurize a hugh concert hall or something.

something that would make lower wpc an issue is if you drive your speakers down low (like i do) then you will need more raw power to do that especially for HT applications. it is at that time that you need an amp or amp section with plenty of power for headroom for dynamics while attempting to reproduce said low end with the speakers. of course if your speakers are set to 80hz or higher and you've got a really good sub, your in business if that's your preference.

best of luck buddy.
55" Sony SXRD KDS-A552000 1080P
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:51 PM   #6
Schultzy Schultzy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooley View Post
Great that you took the time to look at Denon and Pioneer and evaluate the models.

IMHO, not Denon. I don't know how to say it but Denon appears to be 'sluggish' for your old-school traditional Infinity speakers.

Pioneer in general is soft sound, listening CD is okay, but e.g. gunshot in the movies lost that 'bang' literally.

If you like to carry on the Onkyo power feeling, with a bit warmth, then Harman Kardon AVR 2650 or 3650. American matching American, a safe bet.
(Isn't Infinity also under Harman now?)

If you like a new experience with a good match, then Yamaha basic Adventage e.g. RX-A710, A1010. Yamaha's brightness can bring more out of Infinity old-school high frequency treble.

Regards.
Thanks for the post. That is an interesting view. What do you mean by sluggish? Everything I have read about the Denon 1912 has been great.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:30 PM   #7
sonic_debauchery sonic_debauchery is offline
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It is of general consensus i believe that Audyssey Multi EQ XT is far better than MCAAC which hasn't been changed since 2004!

I have a buddy that has an elite model of pioneer. It is the 94txi. I have a Denon 3808. My buddy says he is so disappointed with mcaac. HisPAradigm Sub12 hardly kicks below 63hz.

My paradigm pw 2200 kicks down to 19hz with the audyssey multieq XT.

The Denon is definitely not sluggish. The Pioneers run what is called Brighter. I can't stand turning a pioneer to reference levels, the brightness makes my ear drums go crazy. Turning a Denon or Onkyo to reference levels sounds amazing. Lots of detail, especially at 24bit 96000khz .wav files (Onkyo 809).

Perhaps do some reading over at audyssey.com and then try to find information on mcaac. My 2 cents anyway.

Again check accessoriesfor less, probably best bang for your buck. Also try dakmart.com I bought my 3808 from them 4 uears ago and it works fantastic.
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Old 04-07-2012, 03:24 PM   #8
Schultzy Schultzy is offline
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I'm now down to either the Denon 1912 for $399 or the Onkyo TX-NR809 for $499 at Fry's.

Same question as before for the experts here...is the Onkyo worth the extra $100 to get more watts per channel, video upconversion, and THX certification?
Detroit/Michigan Sports Fanatic - Go Blue, Wings, Tigers, Lions, Pistons!
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Old 04-07-2012, 04:15 PM   #9
PurpleJesus74 PurpleJesus74 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultzy View Post
I'm now down to either the Denon 1912 for $399 or the Onkyo TX-NR809 for $499 at Fry's.

Same question as before for the experts here...is the Onkyo worth the extra $100 to get more watts per channel, video upconversion, and THX certification?
I would have to vote for the Onkyo,that thing looks pretty beastly,i think it'd be worth it,but the choice is yours,they both look like great AVR's.
Basement ''mancave'' setup :
Sanyo PLV-1080HD Projector,Focupix 100'' manual screen,APC-H10,Onkyo 805,Emotiva XPA-3,PS- 3 slim, Polk Rti-12, Polk CS2,Polk Monitor 60(rears),PSA XV-15 Emotiva Utra Sub 12
Living room setup:
Panasonic TC-60PU54 ''60 Plasma,Onkyo 705, PS- 3 80GB(MGS4 Bundle edition)w/ upgraded 500 gb HD,Eosone RSF1000 tower speakers, Polk Fxi-5,Polk Csi-25

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Old 04-07-2012, 04:22 PM   #10
Remo Remo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultzy View Post
I'm now down to either the Denon 1912 for $399 or the Onkyo TX-NR809 for $499 at Fry's.

Same question as before for the experts here...is the Onkyo worth the extra $100 to get more watts per channel, video upconversion, and THX certification?
I have been a long time Denon fan, I love Denon products But I just bought an Onkyo receiver last week and I will say I am impressed. I purchaced an Onkyo 1009 it is awesome
I am going to suggest going with the 809 as it is far a more caplable receiver than the Denon 1912 as far as features go.
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Old 04-07-2012, 05:59 PM   #11
sonic_debauchery sonic_debauchery is offline
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Go with the 809 i bought it for my dad and it is awesome.
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Old 04-08-2012, 04:09 PM   #12
Schultzy Schultzy is offline
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I will try for the Onkyo 809 for sure on Monday, but only if I can pick it up in store at Fry's for $499. If not, I can't affornd $1K for it. If no, I may just default back to the Denon 1912 for $399.
Detroit/Michigan Sports Fanatic - Go Blue, Wings, Tigers, Lions, Pistons!
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Old 04-08-2012, 04:21 PM   #13
walmat walmat is offline
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JMHO but don't settle with the 1912. I use one at work and it hasn't impressed me at all. For home use I have an Integra (Onkyo's other model) and it is a far superior sounding amp. Also I upgraded to the Integra from an H/K and again there is no comparison.
Good Luck
Integra 40.3 Reciever
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:28 PM   #14
davidp71 davidp71 is offline
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Can't go wrong with Integra. I sold my Pioneer Elite VSX-32 for the DTR-40.3 and couldn't be happier...overall sound quality is much warmer than the Elite. Feeds my Paradigms much better.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:03 AM   #15
Schultzy Schultzy is offline
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Been doing a lot of shopping for this recently. Currenty, I'm deciding between:

New Denon 1712 $399 @ my local Fry's or $306 with free shipping from buy.com

or, a bunch of refurbs: (total cost with shipping estimated below)

Onkyo TXNR709 $470
Marantz SR5006 $480
Denon 2312CI $499

Any thought on these models? Are they worth the extra $ over the buy.com new 1712? The Onkyo is obviously the most stacked with features, I'm noy sure if I need it's THX certification & it's upscaling chips. I'm mostly concerned with getting improved sound over my current Onkyo TXSR605, more watts per channel ans Audessey XT.

Also, I've never bought a refurbished avr before. Are they a pretty safe buy?
Detroit/Michigan Sports Fanatic - Go Blue, Wings, Tigers, Lions, Pistons!
Famous Blu-ray.com Quotes:
"the Anti-Crim wasn't banned, though...just regular and pirate version" - jkwest
"Crim if you can read this, give us a sign." - dpompeo (aka dpomp)
"I'm glad you aren't dead." - BruceWayne
"Brucey!!!! nice...getting lucky with some rapper skank!" - jkwest

Last edited by Schultzy; 04-11-2012 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:33 AM   #16
bobbydrugar bobbydrugar is offline
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just looking around and I can now see your problem in deciding. Denon does not make it easy to view features or detailed specs on their site do they. Makes comparisons difficult at best.

Now for the feedback
I am an onkyo fan and have been now for a few years. Switched from Harmon Kardon a few years back. I did audition the denon, Sony, Pioneer and Onkyo (as well as my former choice HK) and ended up with the onkyo. I think the 709 is a really nice feature rich device and if it is a factory referb from an authorized reseller it will come with a waranty. Based on what I was able to find while at work the denon did not give very much to compare with other then 7.1 ch and 90wpc with 6hdmi in and 1hdmi out. They didn't even have a view of the back of the unit to compare other connection options. I find that to be a bit strange but they do have a pretty good reputation from a few years back so it might be worth it. But if you went denon I would get the bigger 2312 referb if it comes again from an authorized reseller as it will likely have many more features etc.

I think both onkyo and denon have Audyssey for room correction which is a good thing but I am not sure which version is on the denon while the onkyo has multi eqXT (which is no slouch) and I would wager the onkyo has a better video upscalling processor then the denon but again hard to tell.

Hope that helps
Thanks,
T
TV: Samsung UN55D8000
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR5008
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:42 AM   #17
callas01 callas01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultzy View Post
Been doing a lot of shopping for this recently. Currenty, I'm deciding between:

New Denon 1712 $399 @ my local Fry's or $306 with free shipping from buy.com

or, a bunch of refurbs: (total cost with shipping estimated below)

Onkyo TXNR709 $470
Marantz SR5006 $480
Denon 2312CI $499

Any thought on these models? Are they worth the extra $ over the buy.com new 1712? The Onkyo is obviously the most stacked with features, I'm noy sure if I need it's THX certification & it's upscaling chips. I'm mostly concerned with getting improved sound over my current Onkyo TXSR605, more watts per channel ans Audessey XT.

Also, I've never bought a refurbished avr before. Are they a pretty safe buy?
Onkyo redid their receivers to match the sound of the Integra line with their X08 series, and I find it a much better sound. The previous sound was a bit harsh at times, IMO. So the 709 will be a nice upgrade to the 605, IMO. Marantz and Denon have the same sound now as well, theyve merged their sound, and marantz no longer has that warmth they were long known for. Any of those 3 would be a better value buy then the 1712, however I think the 709 is the best buy of them all because of all the features and the pre-outs you get
Video: Panasonic 55" P55ST50, Oppo BDP-103
Amplification: Integra DTR-40.2, Naim Nait XS-2 Integrated Amp
2-CH: Jolida FX Tube DAC, MacBook Pro, Audirvana Music Software
Speakers: Dynaudio Focus 260s, Focus 210 C, DM 2/6
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:34 PM   #18
Dwayne Dwayne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultzy View Post
I'm now down to either the Denon 1912 for $399 or the Onkyo TX-NR809 for $499 at Fry's.

Same question as before for the experts here...is the Onkyo worth the extra $100 to get more watts per channel, video upconversion, and THX certification?
Absolutely. You cannot go wrong with the ONKYO 809. Its a beast and delivers in all areas. I have one and love it. I was in your shoes not long ago and could not decide on PIONEER, DENONS, YAMAHAS, ONKYOS etc.. I finally went with the ONKYO 809 and I have never been happier. Yes it is loaded with more features than the others but the sound to me is warm and potent. The video upscaling on this baby "MARVEL 4K QDEO" is outstanding. I do not use the THX settings at all but it is nice to have them. The ONKYO 709 and 809 are outstanding. IMO this the way to go, I did.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:38 AM   #19
Schultzy Schultzy is offline
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This receiver decision is killing me! Everytime I think I've decided, I come across another option.

Should I avoind buying a refurbished receiver for any reason?
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:40 AM   #20
Schultzy Schultzy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Onkyo redid their receivers to match the sound of the Integra line with their X08 series, and I find it a much better sound. The previous sound was a bit harsh at times, IMO. So the 709 will be a nice upgrade to the 605, IMO. Marantz and Denon have the same sound now as well, theyve merged their sound, and marantz no longer has that warmth they were long known for. Any of those 3 would be a better value buy then the 1712, however I think the 709 is the best buy of them all because of all the features and the pre-outs you get
Thanks for the post. Looking hard at the 709 for $540 shipped new. Either that or the refurbished Denon 2312CI or the Marantz SR5006 both for just under $500 shipped.
Detroit/Michigan Sports Fanatic - Go Blue, Wings, Tigers, Lions, Pistons!
Famous Blu-ray.com Quotes:
"the Anti-Crim wasn't banned, though...just regular and pirate version" - jkwest
"Crim if you can read this, give us a sign." - dpompeo (aka dpomp)
"I'm glad you aren't dead." - BruceWayne
"Brucey!!!! nice...getting lucky with some rapper skank!" - jkwest

Last edited by Schultzy; 04-13-2012 at 03:56 AM.
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