Why do Oppo BD players cost more than the PS3?

[prerich]

Originally Posted by repete66211

IMO the best feature of the Oppo is dual HDMI-outs, which allows you to send audio via one HDMI to your AVR and video directly to your display. I've seen this touted as a benefit for those with 3D TVs but not 3D AVRs, but it's really a benefit for everyone.

+1 agreed! I almost forgot about that

[ZipZapo]

Well I have a Panasonic DMP-BDT310, they can be gotten fairly cheap used on ebay. I have had this unit since December of 2011, and so far it plays everything I toss at it. Has lot's of nice extras like dual HDMI if you have an older amp, does 3D, and lots of online apps like Netflix. Comparing to my PS3 it loads the discs just as quick, and well it just works. I am sure many others here have this player and can vouch me that it is a capable player. I don't think you would be disappointing with it.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by tele1962

It seems to me that the placebo (or money spent) effect has quite a bit to do with this.

How exactly? I haven't implied that I can see a difference one way or another or that the amount I spent on the Oppo matters to me, you are just assuming those things.

I own 6 blu-ray players, 2 ps3's, a Panasonic dmp-bdt300, a Toshiba bdx3200ky, a laptop with a blu-ray drive, and the Oppo which are all good players. I owned all the others expect for the Toshiba before I bought the Oppo. There were multiple reasons why I wanted an Oppo, such as region free capabilities and the overall quality of the Oppo etc, and I did my research before I bought the Oppo. In fact the tests that I directed you to were a small part of me making the decision to purchase an Oppo, because I was planning to buy my 1st plasma and after the break in period to age the phosphors evenly, I was planning to use the Spears and Munsil calibration disc. With those measured tests showing that some players were producing an incorrect signal with the Oppo being the only player that was 100% accurate, I thought to myself that I rather make sure that it's done right, as I had no way of knowing that my other players were accurate. I don't care whether I can see a difference or not, because like member 'Bhampton' said in the thread discussing the test, I would prefer to use and own a player that I know is producing an accurate signal. The money side of things is also irrelevant, too me anyway, because the Oppo's aren't very expensive imo, $500 isn't a lot of money, in fact I paid more than $500 since they are more expensive here in Australia. To put in perspective for you, I've just ordered new custom made shelves for my movie collection which are costing me over $2500, so really why would I care about $500 for an Oppo? My 60gb ps3 actually cost me around the same.

Originally Posted by tele1962

You mention experts, what about someone who advises the likes of OPPO, Samsung, Panasonic on PQ, someone who invents the very test patterns that trip up (or not in many cases) these players and who experts and calibrators turn to for advice.............would you say they are wrong?

That was one point of them doing the tests, so they can find out what manufacturers are putting out devices that don't comply with the specs. If you think that manufactures don't release products that are completely free of such defects then you are kidding yourself. Nobody has said that many blu-ray players are not complying with the standard, just that there are clearly some models on the market that don't if the tests that were done last year at Stacey Spears home is anything to go off.

Originally Posted by tele1962

PS
Little or no difference, a little difference if the player tv is not set up correctly no difference if they are.

That was also covered in the article and in the thread by the guy who was involved in the testing. Here is one of the comments below that was said about it by him.

Originally Posted by smackrabbit

If you get an ISF Calibration, and run separate HDMI cables to the display for every video component you have, than you can somewhat get around these issues from devices, but the far more common setup for people is:

- They calibrate from their Blu-ray player with a disc of patterns
- They run everything through a processor to one input

Many people don't have their equipment ISF calibrated, they rely on a calibration discs, and if their player doesn't comply to the specs and produces an incorrect signal, then using a calibration disc is a waste of time with that player because the results will come out wrong.

Originally Posted by smackrabbit

Google HDTVTest there you will find your answer.

Again, you are simply disregarding the findings of one source for another. The findings of those who run that website are no more or less valid to those that run the tests at hometheaterhifi.com.

Originally Posted by tele1962

PS3, Magnavox, Limit also owned PS3 Fat Panasonc BDT110, Samsung BD1600. The person who i am in contact with owns a special edition of the OPPO 83.

Now that you have listed your players I can see why you don't even want to consider the possibility of the results holding truth . Who is the person you are in contact with Mr Magnavox, what's their name?

[Badas]

Yep.

Check this out.

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/

Check out the color space article. Tells you about the patterns. Oppo passes everything. I haven't seen another player do that. As I have said before even my more expensive Denon fails badly on two tests. PS3 fails the Clip test. Most of these test are designed to see if the HDMI board is operating correctly.

Ta Dono

[tele1962]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

How exactly? I haven't implied that I can see a difference one way or another or that the amount I spent on the Oppo matters to me, you are just assuming those things.

I own 6 blu-ray players, 2 ps3's, a Panasonic dmp-bdt300, a Toshiba bdx3200ky, a laptop with a blu-ray drive, and the Oppo which are all good players. I owned all the others expect for the Toshiba before I bought the Oppo. There were multiple reasons why I wanted an Oppo, such as region free capabilities and the overall quality of the Oppo etc, and I did my research before I bought the Oppo. In fact the tests that I directed you to were a small part of me making the decision to purchase an Oppo, because I was planning to buy my 1st plasma and after the break in period to age the phosphors evenly, I was planning to use the Spears and Munsil calibration disc. With those measured tests showing that some players were producing an incorrect signal with the Oppo being the only player that was 100% accurate, I thought to myself that I rather make sure that it's done right, as I had no way of knowing that my other players were accurate. I don't care whether I can see a difference or not, because like member 'Bhampton' said in the thread discussing the test, I would prefer to use and own a player that I know is producing an accurate signal. The money side of things is also irrelevant, too me anyway, because the Oppo's aren't very expensive imo, $500 isn't a lot of money, in fact I paid more than $500 since they are more expensive here in Australia. To put in perspective for you, I've just ordered new custom made shelves for my movie collection which are costing me over $2500, so really why would I care about $500 for an Oppo? My 60gb ps3 actually cost me around the same.



That was one point of them doing the tests, so they can find out what manufacturers are putting out devices that don't comply with the specs. If you think that manufactures don't release products that are completely free of such defects then you are kidding yourself. Nobody has said that many blu-ray players are not complying with the standard, just that there are clearly some models on the market that don't if the tests that were done last year at Stacey Spears home is anything to go off.



That was also covered in the article and in the thread by the guy who was involved in the testing. Here is one of the comments below that was said about it by him.



Many people don't have their equipment ISF calibrated, they rely on a calibration discs, and if their player doesn't comply to the specs and produces an incorrect signal, then using a calibration disc is a waste of time with that player because the results will come out wrong.



Again, you are simply disregarding the findings of one source for another. The findings of those who run that website are no more or less valid to those that run the tests at hometheaterhifi.com.



Now that you have listed your players I can see why you don't even want to consider the possibility of the results holding truth . Who is the person you are in contact with Mr Magnavox, what's their name?

You clearly know nothing about calibration or PQ in general and will not listen to the very people who are involved with this process. However i am inviting you to post your question Direct to David Mackenzie over on HDTVTest, as i am clearly getting no where with you.

To the other poster.
The clipping will only happen when outputting when using RGB, so you have your PS3 incorrectly set up.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by tele1962

You clearly know nothing about calibration or PQ in general and will not listen to the very people who are involved with this process. However i am inviting you to post your question Direct to David Mackenzie over on HDTVTest, as i am clearly getting no where with you.

To the other poster.
The clipping will only happen when outputting when using RGB, so you have your PS3 incorrectly set up.

Whatever, you peanut. Are you in love with David Mackenzie or something? You only seem to be interested in his professional opinion, and nobody else’s. This has got nothing to with what I personally know about calibration, I’m not a professional and I’ve never claimed to be, and clearly neither are you by the way you’re carrying on. You are blatantly ignoring the findings of other respected experts. I have merely been outlining what was said in the other thread by the individual who ran the tests, so you’re insulting him (and imo Stacey Spears as well) by saying that I know nothing about calibration, not me. Listen to who? You? And your idea that David’s professional opinion is all that matters over other peoples in the industry? You are the only one in this thread who is involved in the process that is trying to say this. You need to get over yourself. You’re acting as if the guy who ran the tests is some nobody who doesn’t know what he is talking about. Maybe you should just accept the fact that there is data available that proves that there can be variations instead of just being ignorant and dismissing it.

[kristoffer]

Originally Posted by Badas

Yep.

Check this out.

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/

Check out the color space article. Tells you about the patterns. Oppo passes everything. I haven't seen another player do that. As I have said before even my more expensive Denon fails badly on two tests. PS3 fails the Clip test. Most of these test are designed to see if the HDMI board is operating correctly.

Ta Dono

Interesting! What is the Clip test?

[Lyris]

Originally Posted by Badas

Yep.

Check this out.

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/

Check out the color space article. Tells you about the patterns. Oppo passes everything. I haven't seen another player do that. As I have said before even my more expensive Denon fails badly on two tests. PS3 fails the Clip test. Most of these test are designed to see if the HDMI board is operating correctly.

Ta Dono

Very interesting - PS3 fails the clip test? I know it does in the default setup (whiter than white is clipped) but I was under the impression it'd work properly with some of the options changed.

BTW, someone earlier in the thread said the PS3 had the same quality video as the Oppo with 1080i BDs. That's kind of true and kind of not, because the Oppo can deinterlace them and output as 1080p; the PS3 can only output them as-is.

BTW 2: the Secrets BD Player benchmark is absolutely excellent. Their findings are scientific and as indisputable as they can possibly be. The way I skim-read this thread, it almost seemed like I'd been accused of disagreeing with them. That's not the case!

[Lyris]

But to answer the original question:

Why do Oppo BD players cost more than the PS3?

Games consoles are sold at a loss (in the early days, the PS3 had a BIG one) to drive adoption. Money is made back on accessories (BD remote) and games. I'd imagine the PS3 is profitable for Sony by now (I sure hope so) but it's a totally different model.

[prerich]

And there we have it folks - from Mr. McKenzie himself. Thanks for your comments David - is everyone else all clear?

[MrHT]

Originally Posted by Lyris

Games consoles are sold at a loss (in the early days, the PS3 had a BIG one) to drive adoption. Money is made back on accessories (BD remote) and games. I'd imagine the PS3 is profitable for Sony by now (I sure hope so) but it's a totally different model.

Gotcha! So, Sony can sell the PS3 at a loss and they can make up for that loss from the accessories and games. Oppo, on the other hand, doesn't make money off of accessories and BDs, so they need to sell at a profit. That makes sense!

[Lyris]

Not only that, but Oppo is a small company (in the West!) that will likely have to spend a decent amount of time and money in bug-fixing Blu-ray Java () issues (makes me pine for HD-I...). I think they have a very good track record of doing so, though.

Also, Oppo came into BD as a trusted "no-BS" brand by the AV crowd. My experience with them is the same; every issue I pointed out was fixed if the hardware allowed it. Some people don't have the time or the means to go through a bunch of players with test patterns to find out which ones work properly, Oppo can be trusted not to screw around with the picture so they'll get an instant sale on that count. Most people aren't aware that the PS3 doesn't either, some don't want a games console as a player because they feel it's out of place in an HT environment.

There's also scale, they don't produce the players en masse like Playstation 3s or Panasonics (even although the image quality with 1080p/24 BD is identical from my experiences; but I'll need to investigate this claim about PS3 clipping). Oppo charge a fee for their players because they can, and people in this thread have given good reasons why their players are a great choice.

[Cevolution]

Thank you David for clearing up what your true thoughts are in regards to hometheaterhifi.com/The secrets BD player benchmark, their expertise and testing methods.

[tele1962]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

Thank you David for clearing up what your true thoughts are in regards to hometheaterhifi.com/The secrets BD player benchmark, their expertise and testing methods.

There testing mehtods never came into question and i know David never questioned that fact and niether did i. But i will stick the the fact there is no percievable difference in PQ between the OPPO and PS3. You have twisted this into us against the test results and nothing could be further from the truth.

I will stick with the fact that the OP will see no difference in PQ.

[DerrellB]

Originally Posted by Lyris

Not only that, but Oppo is a small company (in the West!) that will likely have to spend a decent amount of time and money in bug-fixing Blu-ray Java () issues (makes me pine for HD-I...). I think they have a very good track record of doing so, though.

Also, Oppo came into BD as a trusted "no-BS" brand by the AV crowd. My experience with them is the same; every issue I pointed out was fixed if the hardware allowed it. Some people don't have the time or the means to go through a bunch of players with test patterns to find out which ones work properly, Oppo can be trusted not to screw around with the picture so they'll get an instant sale on that count. Most people aren't aware that the PS3 doesn't either, some don't want a games console as a player because they feel it's out of place in an HT environment.

There's also scale, they don't produce the players en masse like Playstation 3s or Panasonics (even although the image quality with 1080p/24 BD is identical from my experiences; but I'll need to investigate this claim about PS3 clipping). Oppo charge a fee for their players because they can, and people in this thread have given good reasons why their players are a great choice.

I have a question that I hope you can answer. In this thread we have talked about the oppo putting out the best picture scientifically. With most running there oppo through the receiver or processor then to the tv, will those have an effect on the picture that the oppo puts out? I know receivers and processors are supposed to have a pass through option that does not touch the picture but do you believe that truly happens?

[MrHT]

Originally Posted by Lyris

Not only that, but Oppo is a small company (in the West!) that will likely have to spend a decent amount of time and money in bug-fixing Blu-ray Java () issues (makes me pine for HD-I...). I think they have a very good track record of doing so, though.

Also, Oppo came into BD as a trusted "no-BS" brand by the AV crowd. My experience with them is the same; every issue I pointed out was fixed if the hardware allowed it. Some people don't have the time or the means to go through a bunch of players with test patterns to find out which ones work properly, Oppo can be trusted not to screw around with the picture so they'll get an instant sale on that count. Most people aren't aware that the PS3 doesn't either, some don't want a games console as a player because they feel it's out of place in an HT environment.

That's the thing with firmware updates. We're all scared that a new firmware will break something instead of fixing it. You always hear complaints like, "After the firmware update, my player won't recognize these discs" or "The firmware update bricked my player." So, I've always been scared to update. Looks like if I buy an Oppo, I can rest assured that those things will never happen.

[tele1962]

Originally Posted by Lyris

Very interesting - PS3 fails the clip test? I know it does in the default setup (whiter than white is clipped) but I was under the impression it'd work properly with some of the options changed.

BTW, someone earlier in the thread said the PS3 had the same quality video as the Oppo with 1080i BDs. That's kind of true and kind of not, because the Oppo can deinterlace them and output as 1080p; the PS3 can only output them as-is.

BTW 2: the Secrets BD Player benchmark is absolutely excellent. Their findings are scientific and as indisputable as they can possibly be. The way I skim-read this thread, it almost seemed like I'd been accused of disagreeing with them. That's not the case!

David nothing could be further from the truth as i have already said, yes there results are benchmark and the way it is and excellent they are to. That is why i never disagreed with them or said you had (check back through the thread) only Cevolution has said that i or we had disagreed with them, and who is convincing others on here that they will see a difference in BR picture quality when clearly they will not.

Clipping on the PS3 i have only seen when the colour space is set to RGB.

AND TO CEVOLUTION:

" Also, Oppo came into BD as a trusted "no-BS" brand by the AV crowd. My experience with them is the same; every issue I pointed out was fixed if the hardware allowed it. Some people don't have the time or the means to go through a bunch of players with test patterns to find out which ones work properly, Oppo can be trusted not to screw around with the picture so they'll get an instant sale on that count. Most people aren't aware that the PS3 doesn't either, some don't want a games console as a player because they feel it's out of place in an HT environment."

[Lyris]

I have a question that I hope you can answer. In this thread we have talked about the oppo putting out the best picture scientifically. With most running there oppo through the receiver or processor then to the tv, will those have an effect on the picture that the oppo puts out? I know receivers and processors are supposed to have a pass through option that does not touch the picture but do you believe that truly happens?

Very good question, and the answer is, I don't know because I don't review AV receivers

My own Onkyo TX-SR876 passes 1080p/24 signals through without modification.

Regarding differences in 1080p/24 output quality between the PS3 and the Oppo; unless the chroma subsampling (the most likely area, and also the most subtle) has changed, they're the same, which isn't surprising because there is really no "art" to the design (well, not in a way that affects picture quality). They're the same because they both work properly, or at least can be configured to work properly.

I remember someone on another forum genuinely thought they saw a difference, so when I had time I snapped some tests to prove that there is none. The most often claimed difference between players is that one is "softer" than the other. That's actually the easiest thing possible to check for, so beyond placebo effects, I don't understand how there can actually be any debate over it.

Oppo Burst: http://davidmackenzie.me/temp/bd/_1020694.jpg
Oppo LZP: http://davidmackenzie.me/temp/bd/_1020695.jpg

PS3 Burst: http://davidmackenzie.me/temp/bd/_1020696.jpg
PS3 LZP: http://davidmackenzie.me/temp/bd/_1020697.jpg

If I thought the PS3 was degrading image quality, I would never use it for QC purposes.

[tele1962]

Thanks for clearing that up David now maybe we can all give each other a hug and move on.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by repete66211

For that reason I think analog may be a disadvantage for some, if not for performance at least for convenience. I would venture a guess that most people will probably send audio to the AVR digitally via HDMI, in which case the superior DAC and analog out option is moot.

IMO the best feature of the Oppo is dual HDMI-outs, which allows you to send audio via one HDMI to your AVR and video directly to your display. I've seen this touted as a benefit for those with 3D TVs but not 3D AVRs, but it's really a benefit for everyone.

What I do is run analog out to one input on the receiver and HDMI to another input. When watching movies, I generally use the HDMI. But when listening to CDs (even though they're "digital"), Pandora, etc., I usually listen via the analog outs and frequently will take the digital processing (or as much of it as is possible) out of the circuit. It still doesn't sound as good as my former analog system, but it's a bit closer. If I could figure out an easy way to feed the same front speakers with two different amps (some sort of automated relay switch would be needed), I'd put my old analog premap and power amp back online and use that for 2-channel music listening.