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Old 11-15-2011, 09:03 PM   #421
theJman theJman is offline
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Originally Posted by JJ View Post
AJ, you just questioned Jim's ENTIRE existence,
Well, he didn't berate my choice of sub, so I still have that going for me...
- Jim
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:12 PM   #422
herzog4life herzog4life is offline
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I'm thinking about getting a tower to replace my horizontal center channel speaker. Is it absolutely important that it is the same model as my other two front tower speakers? I was thinking of getting a slightly nicer one for the middle b/c it would handle most of the dialogue, but would that throw everything off?
"Bob, I'm gonna tell you what the old wh0re said, and this is the truest thing I know: "When you start cumming with the customers, it's time to quit."
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:17 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herzog4life View Post
I'm thinking about getting a tower to replace my horizontal center channel speaker. Is it absolutely important that it is the same model as my other two front tower speakers? I was thinking of getting a slightly nicer one for the middle b/c it would handle most of the dialogue, but would that throw everything off?
The best thing would be to have it the same as the front L/R so all 3 timbre match. That way all 3 sound identical & when something pans from one side to the other it sounds all the same.
Brent

A Projector and Sound System with a Blu-ray ~ Priceless.........
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:01 AM   #424
Skylinestar Skylinestar is offline
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Are KEF Q200c & Q600c considered as MTM design? The KEF Uni-Q design is unique.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:01 PM   #425
browninggold browninggold is offline
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I did it years ago and sounds "Seamless". All thanks to you and this article
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:15 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by browninggold View Post
I did it years ago and sounds "Seamless". All thanks to you and this article
When are you going to invite us over to audition your seamless front stage?
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.

Last edited by Big Daddy; 11-29-2012 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:21 PM   #427
crazyBLUE crazyBLUE is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
When are you going to invite us over to audition your seamless front stage?
I second that.

I will bring the beer
Brent

A Projector and Sound System with a Blu-ray ~ Priceless.........

Last edited by Big Daddy; 11-29-2012 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:07 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by bluseminole View Post
another excellent and informative guide! Keep 'em coming! We all appreciate the time and effort you put into educating those of us who are somewhat less enlightened.
+1
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:54 AM   #429
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I am new to this forum and have become puzzled about the center speaker placement. I have only auditioned the Studio 100s and the B&W CM 9s. I was leaning towards the Studio 100s and was trying to decide between the CC-590 and CC-690.

After reading this thread:
"Horizontal Center Channel Speakers and Why They Should Be Avoided"

I am now completely confused and wondering if I'm wasting my money on a quality CC if placing it in a horizontal orientation has an adverse affect on its performance. I was under the assumption that if I had decent room correction software, TACT, Audyssey XT32, etc., that I would not need to be concerned if I placed my center in the horizontal position. Any help appreciated Ė thanks.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:02 AM   #430
theJman theJman is offline
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I wouldn't really worry about it. Virtually every speaker company in existence makes horizontal centers, and the vast majority of people have one in their home theater. If they were really all that bad the situation would be the opposite, so buy what you think works best and enjoy it.
- Jim
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:22 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saril View Post
I am new to this forum and have become puzzled about the center speaker placement. I have only auditioned the Studio 100s and the B&W CM 9s. I was leaning towards the Studio 100s and was trying to decide between the CC-590 and CC-690.

After reading this thread:
"Horizontal Center Channel Speakers and Why They Should Be Avoided"

I am now completely confused and wondering if I'm wasting my money on a quality CC if placing it in a horizontal orientation has an adverse affect on its performance. I was under the assumption that if I had decent room correction software, TACT, Audyssey XT32, etc., that I would not need to be concerned if I placed my center in the horizontal position. Any help appreciated Ė thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theJman View Post
I wouldn't really worry about it. Virtually every speaker company in existence makes horizontal centers, and the vast majority of people have one in their home theater. If they were really all that bad the situation would be the opposite, so buy what you think works best and enjoy it.
I don't think this is great advice to tell him not to worry about it. It can happen, and there are many factors that cause this problem.

He might buy a certain center channel and end up being the worst consumer to ever buy to experience it, or he may not ever have an issue.

Just because, as you say "Virtually every speaker company in existence makes horizontal centers" doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

You have to take in to consideration the many complaints people who have questioned their center channel and how they resolved it, those few people who complained actually represent many people who havenít taken the time to ask.

Some people have bought three of the same speakers for the front stage, while some feel the need to turn the DB up on the center channel, and some just ignore the little lobbing at times.

Big Daddy wrote a nice and complicated thread on this, and some of it I donít understand, but I can tell you my experience from it.

I had this problem from my Klipsch C2 center channel I had in my apartment, and my wife often complained. Iím in a new house, and currently have the same center channel in my bedroom, and without the lobbing issue.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:29 PM   #432
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They make "center" channels because that's what the market expects. People don't perceive that a different configuration would perform better if it better matched the L/R channels. Simply look to your L/R speakers for what sounds better; no company makes horizontal L/R speakers because their horizontal dispersion will suffer. A line of drivers is ideally vertical. A simple bookshelf configuration, matched identically across the front will always perform better than some mismatched horizontal thing in the most critical channel.

Of course, in perspective they aren't "terrible." As with any hobby, small differences are focused on and can become overstated. All the article discusses is what is better. If you can afford some height to your center channel, it will perform better maintaining the vertical orientation and matching of your L/R. Just because a manufacture slaps "center" on a box that looks like what the customer expects, does not mean it matches. Somewhat, yeah. Identically, no way. The mastering studios do not use some horizontally aligned, non-identical thing. It's simply not best practice. The degree to which you compromise beyond that is your own choice.

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:46 PM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscmore View Post
They make "center" channels because that's what the market expects. People don't perceive that a different configuration would perform better if it better matched the L/R channels. Simply look to your L/R speakers for what sounds better; no company makes horizontal L/R speakers because their horizontal dispersion will suffer. A line of drivers is ideally vertical. A simple bookshelf configuration, matched identically across the front will always perform better than some mismatched horizontal thing in the most critical channel.

Of course, in perspective they aren't "terrible." As with any hobby, small differences are focused on and can become overstated. All the article discusses is what is better. If you can afford some height to your center channel, it will perform better maintaining the vertical orientation and matching of your L/R. Just because a manufacture slaps "center" on a box that looks like what the customer expects, does not mean it matches. Somewhat, yeah. Identically, no way. The mastering studios do not use some horizontally aligned, non-identical thing. It's simply not best practice. The degree to which you compromise beyond that is your own choice.

Cheers,
Chris
+1, and also a great point with the highlighted part
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:20 PM   #434
theJman theJman is offline
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I'm not inferring there's no issue with horizontal placement - because there may or may not be - I'm just saying he shouldn't be so worried because it's not something that will negatively impact his HT in any material way.

I've never seen any speaker company selling a product called a "center channel" that doesn't have a horizontal variant, so it's not really a stretch to say 100% of those speaker companies are selling them. It's probably not an exaggeration to say 95% of home theaters use them as well, so one can easily conclude that the issue is not something all that significant. Does it exist? Perhaps. Does it ruin the HT experience? Not for the vast majority it seems.

What occurs in a mastering studio isn't really relevant here I'm afraid. How many people actually use studio monitors and all the sound treatments for their HT? Very few, so trying to sight that environment as an example of how to setup a HT is taking the situation out of context. A studio is a completely different world.

If he can use a vertical center then by all means give it a shot. If he can't that's fine too. All I tried to convey was don't sweat the esoteric. Buy quality equipment, position it the best you can, configure everything and then have some fun. The orientation of ones center doesn't strike me as something to worry much about.
- Jim
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:15 AM   #435
shinokuu shinokuu is offline
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since center speakers are usually made better than their LR speaker counterpart, is it better to buy 2 center speakers and use them for LR mains on top of the original center speaker?
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:44 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinokuu View Post
since center speakers are usually made better than their LR speaker counterpart, is it better to buy 2 center speakers and use them for LR mains on top of the original center speaker?
It's not true that the centers are usually better, because they will have worse horizontal dispersion, imaging and intelligibility. Perhaps a point source coincident speaker such as KEF could sound better with a larger cabinet versus it's bookshelf brethren, but point source speakers are exceedingly rare. However, matching whatever you have identically is an advantage across the front, as the pans across the soundstage will then have identical timbre for the center seat. Again, the off-axis timbre of anything horizontal will unfortunately depend on listening angle. Having two tweeters from two bookshelves aligned horizontally would be a bad idea since wave interference is most critical with higher frequencies. They can purposefully phase the sound around using multiple horizontal tweeters in soundbars, for example.

Many "centers" are designed to be L/C/R and can be fantastic in that configuration. With some companies, they're unfortunately the only way to be able to buy the boxes individually. Hopefully, selling by the pairs goes the way of the fax machine.

As the Jman points out, the differences may not be a big deal for you. While I'd be careful not to dampen the enjoyment of the hobby for all, if asked I'd point out an undersized screen, mismatched front soundstage, compromised off-axis intelligibility, vertical axis inconsistency, and acoustic obstacles such as a floor, cabinet, or panel being too close and diffractive.

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:35 PM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinokuu View Post
since center speakers are usually made better than their LR speaker counterpart, is it better to buy 2 center speakers and use them for LR mains on top of the original center speaker?
What?

I think this depends on the speaker itself. I wouldn't say that a Paradigm CC690 is made better than studio 100's. As most of you know I'm in the vertical center channel camp - there aren't that many center channels that can keep up with high sensitivity speakers (unless you get them custom made).
Klipsch Cornwall L/R, Klipsch Heresy center, Definitive Technology BP2's (x4) rear, Wharfedale sw380 Subs (x2), SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2-8 inch transmission line Subs (rear), Yamaha power Amps mx830 (x2), Adcom 5503 3 channel power amp, Behringer EP4000 Power amp, BD HTPC, Xonar Essence ST/H6 modified Burson Supreme Discreet Opamps, NAS with 6gb ram running NAS4Free and 12tb of storage, Da-lite 16:9 106" Screen, BenQ 3D Projector, LG 55 inch LED TV.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:37 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscmore View Post
It's not true that the centers are usually better, because they will have worse horizontal dispersion, imaging and intelligibility. Perhaps a point source coincident speaker such as KEF could sound better with a larger cabinet versus it's bookshelf brethren, but point source speakers are exceedingly rare. However, matching whatever you have identically is an advantage across the front, as the pans across the soundstage will then have identical timbre for the center seat. Again, the off-axis timbre of anything horizontal will unfortunately depend on listening angle. Having two tweeters from two bookshelves aligned horizontally would be a bad idea since wave interference is most critical with higher frequencies. They can purposefully phase the sound around using multiple horizontal tweeters in soundbars, for example.

Many "centers" are designed to be L/C/R and can be fantastic in that configuration. With some companies, they're unfortunately the only way to be able to buy the boxes individually. Hopefully, selling by the pairs goes the way of the fax machine.

As the Jman points out, the differences may not be a big deal for you. While I'd be careful not to dampen the enjoyment of the hobby for all, if asked I'd point out an undersized screen, mismatched front soundstage, compromised off-axis intelligibility, vertical axis inconsistency, and acoustic obstacles such as a floor, cabinet, or panel being too close and diffractive.

Cheers,
Chris
Good post +1 !
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:20 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
Morkys.

I would try to go with the T55 tower & just raise the TV if you can. Even get a matching tower to your fronts.

If someone says it can't be done or it would be hard to do ~ Don't listen to them

Here is my setup so anything is possible!



Crazy Blue I love this theater and I admire your woodworking skills! I have a pair of polk audio RTi12's and a CSi5 center that is vertically housed inside a 3-compartment DIY TV stand/equipment rack. The center channel sits between the two columns of rack space. I will post the pics soon. I am getting very good dialogue detail from movies at all different positions in the living room. However, I feel like the tweeter maybe too low, compared to the tweeter height of the towers. I am considering building another cabinet for the center channel that will house the tweeter at the top and the two midranges below. Hopefully this works out
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:24 PM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinokuu View Post
since center speakers are usually made better than their LR speaker counterpart, is it better to buy 2 center speakers and use them for LR mains on top of the original center speaker?
Why are center speakers better than their LR counterparts? What makes them better?

Speaker manufactures make the cabinets exactly the same across the board. One main reason they do this is to keep down production cost. A center channel can/ should be voiced/ miced/ measured differently from its LR brethren. The difference would be found in the crossover.
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