Pioneer BDP-23FD Owners Wanted

[Pondosinatra]

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

Did you contact Pioneer to let them know so they can release a firmware update?

http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/BDfirmware/

It's probably not the firmware. Sounds a lot like the issues I had with my 51fd. Turns out the laser pickup assembly was bad - wanted $700 to fix it - which is how I ended up with a 23fd.

The 51 was a beast though. Better sound setup and video processor from what I remember as well.

[Pondosinatra]

Just watched Contagion.....I didn't think it was going to work.

Took forever to come up with the spinning disc logo and then even longer for the FBI warning to come up. I was worried I'd get the dreaded 'cannot load' message. At least 5 minutes total. And having to listen to the wife ask 'why is Blu-ray better than DVD again?'.

All because of the stupid BD-Live bullsh*t. Wish studios would stop putting that crap on releases!

[Pondosinatra]

Arrrghhh!

Game of Thrones won't start on one of my 23fd's. But it works fine on my other one.

Thought I'd clear out the memory as that's worked sometimes in the past, but for some reason that option is greyed out (on both players). WTH???? I'm thinking the last FW update disabled that functionality.

[Page14]

Hello ... The only bluray player I've ever owned is a Pioneer Elite 23FD, which I've had for maybe 3 years ... give or take a year. It seems a little slow at times, but it has always worked for me. I'm currently in the market for a bluray player for my 90 year old mother ... well ... okay, it's mainly for me to use when I'm watching movies with her. I don't know too much about the newer players out there, but am considering buying my mother a used 23FD. Does anybody have a strong opinion on whether I should buy something more current (and probably cheaper)? I'm only looking to play blurays with whatever I buy ... no need for something any fancier than that. But I do want to buy a good quality product ... not junk. Any thoughts??? (Thanks).

[bakerwi]

Originally Posted by Page14

Hello ... The only bluray player I've ever owned is a Pioneer Elite 23FD, which I've had for maybe 3 years ... give or take a year. It seems a little slow at times, but it has always worked for me. I'm currently in the market for a bluray player for my 90 year old mother ... well ... okay, it's mainly for me to use when I'm watching movies with her. I don't know too much about the newer players out there, but am considering buying my mother a used 23FD. Does anybody have a strong opinion on whether I should buy something more current (and probably cheaper)? I'm only looking to play blurays with whatever I buy ... no need for something any fancier than that. But I do want to buy a good quality product ... not junk. Any thoughts??? (Thanks).

What is your price range?

[Page14]

Originally Posted by bakerwi

What is your price range?

Well, I don't want to go too hog wild for a player that won't get used all that regularly. But at the same time, I'd like whatever I buy to be dependable. I'm not sure if I could get by with buying a cheap player (like $50 to $100). The only bluray player I have any experience with is my Pioneer Elite 23FD, so that's all I know ... and I'm very happy with it. Just not sure how much of a drop off there is when I get to the cheaper players.

[Pondosinatra]

Originally Posted by Page14

Well, I don't want to go too hog wild for a player that won't get used all that regularly. But at the same time, I'd like whatever I buy to be dependable. I'm not sure if I could get by with buying a cheap player (like $50 to $100). The only bluray player I have any experience with is my Pioneer Elite 23FD, so that's all I know ... and I'm very happy with it. Just not sure how much of a drop off there is when I get to the cheaper players.

I bought a second 23FD used and have been happy with it. If you can get it for a good price go for it. As you said, it's likely to be more reliable than your appliance type player at big box stores.

[oppopioneer]

I own a 23FD, since it's been out the last few years have any owners on the forums/websites reported any problems in reliability or anything I need to be brought up on? I haven't been reading up on electronics or on these forums for almost a year so I been out of the loop.

[oppopioneer]

Questions regarding 'Source Direct' from the Pio 23FD bd player and the processing of my Kuro 151 for bluray 1080p/24 material.

I want my Kuro to do the processing in it's Film Mode to give a cinematic PQ. But I read that 'Source Direct' isn't what it claims to be. For example this quote is from a member at AVForum below:

Oppo uses confusing "marketing speak" to describe source direct -

Oppo claim: "The original audio/video content on the discs is sent out with no additional processing or alteration."

This is not accurate for video because the player is required to alter the content i.e. what is output from the player is in a different video format to native Blu-ray content. There's no "bitstream" option for video.

The player HDMI settings will determine key aspects of output such as bitstream v LPCM audio, colour space, Deep Colour etc irrespective of Source Direct mode being selected. It's possible to set Source Direct as the output resolution and still have the player convert/unsample to RGB colour space, interpolate to 12 bit per pixel HDMI Deep Colour and internally decode lossless HD codecs to LPCM.

I would assume Source Direct on the Pio is the same as Source Direct on the Oppo or any other bd player that has that option. If I set my Pio 23FD to 'Source Direct' and I also have the bd player set to HDMI High Speed, 36 bit Deep Color, Video Adjust-Memory 1.......is it still 'Source Direct' then and is the bd player sending the original content off the disc straight through to the Kuro to process and is the Kuro detecting a true 'Source Direct' for it's Film Mode-Advance to convert to 1080p/72? Or should I turn off the bd player's Deep Color Support, HDMI High Speed and set the bd player to Video Adjust - PDF to sync up more purely with the Kuro?

For DVD content, which do you think produces the best PQ for where the bd player output should be set at?

[Tech-UK]

Do you not use 'Professional' selected under Video Adjust? Doesn't source direct, just dictate what resolution and at what frame/field rate is sent to the display?

I have my LX52 set to:

Source Direct.
Video Adjust - Professional,

With this setting, video signal
processing is restrained. Select this when connected
to a professional monitor.

Kuro link - ON.
PQLS - Auto.
HDMI High speed -ON, heres an extract from the manual:

Set HDMI High Speed Transmission to Off when
using an HDMI cable other than a High Speed
HDMI™ cable (a Standard HDMI™ cable).
• The following restrictions apply when HDMI High
Speed Transmission is set to Off:
– Deep Color signals are not output.
– If the output video resolution is set to Auto, the
signals are output with a resolution of 1080/50i or
1080/60i when TV’s preferred resolution is 1080/50p
or 1080/60p.
– When the output video resolution is set to 576i/480i
or 576p/480p, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master
Audio audio signals are output as Dolby Digital,
DTS Digital Surround or linear PCM signals. 96 kHz
or 192 kHz multi-channel audio signals are output
as linear PCM 2-channel audio signals (page 45).
• When an HDMI cable with a built-in equalizer is
connected, it may not operate properly.

Extract regarding 1080p24 signals:

To output film material
To output 1080/24p film material from HDMI OUT
terminal, set the output video resolution to either Auto or
Source Direct.
Caution
• 1080/24p signals can only be output from the HDMI
OUT terminal. They cannot be output from other
video terminals.
• When Auto is selected, the picture is output at 60
frames/second if your TV is not compatible with 1080/
24p signals.
• When Source Direct is selected, the signals are
output as such, even if your TV is not compatible with
1080/24p signals. If the picture is not displayed
properly, use OUTPUT RESOLUTION to set an output
video resolution at which the video and audio signals
are properly output.
• Even if Auto or Source Direct is selected, 720/24p
video signals are output at 60 frames/second.

Whether that helps, or you knew that already . Would be interesting if anyone could shed light on this.

[oppopioneer]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Do you not use 'Professional' selected under Video Adjust? Doesn't source direct, just dictate what resolution and at what frame/field rate is sent to the display?

The Pio owners over at avsforum and the ISF calibrators recommend setting the bd player's Video Adjust to 'Memory 1' and setting the white bar back one notch if you own a Kuro 151FD. Their testing shows that gives the best PQ.

My question is if this effects 'Source Direct'? I asked this over at avs and no one has replied yet.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

The Pio owners over at avsforum and the ISF calibrators recommend setting the bd player's Video Adjust to 'Memory 1' and setting the white bar back one notch if you own a Kuro 151FD. Their testing shows that gives the best PQ.

My question is if this effects 'Source Direct'? I asked this over at avs and no one has replied yet.

Ok. I see. But with those settings arn't you manipulating the image? with Pro, no other processing is done?

[Tech-UK]

I know the 23FD and LX52 differ a little but they are basically the same unit, the reviewer here suggests using the Pro Video Adjust setting, when playing back Blu-ray's (have a read anyway):

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Pion...90/Review.html

I am not suggesting the settings I use are right or wrong, as I too would like to know whats best, as I am saving up for a Kuro.

[oppopioneer]

This is what a member at AVSForum posted about his 23FD and where he has his settings at below...

Source direct only relates to resolution and frame rate. Clourspace, etc are independent of source direct mode.

I always set settings to "professional" for the least amount of mucking-about done by the video processor, turn Deep Colour off since there is no deep-colour software anyway, but set the colourspace to RGB 16-235 with colour depth to 36-bit to minimize colour banding.

PS: yes, Oppo marketing speak is faulty, the decoding is done within the player and just like Pioneer it only relates to resolution and framerate. Any signal WILL have to be "touched" by the video decoder and converted to (say) 24-bit colour, 4:2:2 colourspace.

[oppopioneer]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Ok. I see. But with those settings arn't you manipulating the image? with Pro, no other processing is done?

That's what I'm looking into at the moment. I'll post what I find out here.


Tech-UK thanks for the link above.

[oppopioneer]

With regads to DVD viewing. I think the 23FD does a good job at playing dvd film based material. I use 'Source Direct' for dvd and looks very cinematic in letterbox films. But, my big concern and complaint is with dvd video based material like sports on dvd's that are in full screen. For example NTSC DVD video looks bad. It looks like a VHS tape that was made as a copy by an amatuer, like this dvd here - http://www.dukevideousa.com/World-Su...-NTSC-DVD.aspx

Do you know what the proper settings for the 23FD and Kuro 151FD should be set at for NTSC DVD video based material?

[Tech-UK]

Interesting, thank you for sharing that info oppopioneer . In memory 1 -3 Video Adjust settings, Pure Cinema and Prog motion are unlocked, these settings maybe useful when playing back sports based NTSC DVD's. Take a look at the manual, and have a tweak.

Just out of interest, what colour space are you outputting to your Kuro?

[oppopioneer]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Interesting, thank you for sharing that info oppopioneer . In memory 1 -3 Video Adjust settings, Pure Cinema and Prog motion are unlocked, these settings maybe useful when playing back sports based NTSC DVD's. Take a look at the manual, and have a tweak.

I'd like to have a professional ISF Calibrator tweek it. I'm sort of afraid to mess around with it if I don't know where to set it at. If you or someone else here knows the ideal settings for best PQ then I'll set them.

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Just out of interest, what colour space are you outputting to your Kuro?

I just checked my 23FD's settings and it's set to: "HDMI Color Space-Auto". I believe I read that 'Auto' in Color Space allows the Kuro to choose which is best? Could you explain what are the differences between Auto, RGB 16-325 and 4:2:2 and which is best for PQ for the 23FD and Kuro 151FD combo? Thanks

[Tech-UK]

Blu-rays are encoded with YCbCr 4:2:0, at the end of the day your display is still RGB based, setting the colour space just dictates were it is transcoded, but the main question is were it can be done without loss.

On the Kuro I believe you can lock what colour space it receives or as you have it, set to auto. If both the player and display are set to auto I wonder what the preferred colour space is? Reading some posts over on avs, suggests that RGB 16-235 is the best, including D-Nice, but it probably comes down to the combination of equipment, a pro calibration should result in selecting the best colour space for ones setup.

[oppopioneer]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Blu-rays are encoded with YCbCr 4:2:0, at the end of the day your display is still RGB based, setting the colour space just dictates were it is transcoded, but the main question is were it can be done without loss.

On the Kuro I believe you can lock what colour space it receives or as you have it, set to auto. If both the player and display are set to auto I wonder what the preferred colour space is? Reading some posts over on avs, suggests that RGB 16-235 is the best, including D-Nice, but it probably comes down to the combination of equipment, a pro calibration should result in selecting the best colour space for ones setup.

If blurays are encoded with YCbCr 4:2:0 and I set the bd player to Source Direct won't it send YCbCr 4:2:0 color space to the Kuro display to be displayed like that? Setting the bd's color space to 'Auto' will allow the Kuro to choose which is best right?

There seems to be a contradiction with what Source Direct is suppose to be and do and wanting the Kuro to do something else.

I just want the bd player to send through as untouched as possible what's on the bd and let the Kuro's Film Mode-Advance replicate cinema accurately so it doesn't look or video-ish. The Pio Kuro Elite's have a Film Mode and if it detects a 1080p/24 film source it upconverts it to 1080p/72. In order for the Kuro to get a 1080p/24 source the bd player needs to be set to 'Source Direct' to send that through. If I set the bd player to 1080p/60 then the Kuro's Film Mode won't upconvert it. This is why what tv you have matters.

I just don't know the differences between 'Auto' 'YCbCr 4:2:0' and RGB 16-235 and what they're suppose to do.