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Old 11-27-2012, 05:38 PM   #301
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As discussed Source Direct only relates to resolution and frame/field rate. These other settings need to be set manually, or are automatically negotiated, either via HDMI DDC (this allows devices to negotiate supported formats i.e. colour space, number of speaker channels etc), or set to what is received. But auto doesn't always give you the best results.

Regarding colour space, as I said Blu-rays are encoded with YCbCr 4:2:0, this is how the components that make an image are stored. Somewhere in the chain this has to be converted to RGB, which is passed to the pixels for display (in basic terms), but as I said, whats important is where this convergence occurs, it depends on how a display handles different colour spaces.

The converter in a display maybe far superior (not as susceptible to loss of data) to that of the one in a Blu-ray player, with this you are best sending as close as possible to what is encoded on the disc which is YCbCr 4:2:2 and let the display convert it to RGB, but then again some displays may take an RGB signal, convert that to YCbCr and back again, it just depends on the display and player.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:16 AM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech-UK View Post
As discussed Source Direct only relates to resolution and frame/field rate. These other settings need to be set manually, or are automatically negotiated, either via HDMI DDC (this allows devices to negotiate supported formats i.e. colour space, number of speaker channels etc), or set to what is received. But auto doesn't always give you the best results.

Regarding colour space, as I said Blu-rays are encoded with YCbCr 4:2:0, this is how the components that make an image are stored. Somewhere in the chain this has to be converted to RGB, which is passed to the pixels for display (in basic terms), but as I said, whats important is where this convergence occurs, it depends on how a display handles different colour spaces.

The converter in a display maybe far superior (not as susceptible to loss of data) to that of the one in a Blu-ray player, with this you are best sending as close as possible to what is encoded on the disc which is YCbCr 4:2:2 and let the display convert it to RGB, but then again some displays may take an RGB signal, convert that to YCbCr and back again, it just depends on the display and player.
Ok, thanks for clarifying.

To be a little more specific about my specific tv (Pio Elite Kuro 151FD) and how it handles color space settings from the bd player. I'm not sure how the Kuro 151FD handles and converts the bd players Color Space options and settings. Are you familiar with the 151FD?

This is a review and description of the 320/23FD bd player 'color space' option at HomeTheater.com below:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/p...blu-ray-player

Quote:
The player offers a variety of HDMI color-space options, including Auto, Y/Cb/Cr 4:4:4, Y/Cb/Cr 4:2:2, and two RGB outputs, as well as HDMI audio options for internal decoding or bitstream. Video output resolutions over HDMI include 480i, 480p, 1080i, and 1080p (24 and 60 frames per second). It also includes Source Direct mode, which outputs signals as encoded on the disc with no video processing applied. This is a great option if you have an outboard scaler. The Auto setting uses the extended display identification (EDID) information from your display and outputs the highest supported resolution. The component output supports 480i/p and 1080i/60. The Pioneer is the only one of the three players here that lets you change the player’s output resolution on the fly, while a disc is playing. With the others, you must stop the disc and make the change in an onscreen menu.
So with my 23FD hooked up to my Kuro 151FD, setting the bd player to color space-Auto will allow the 151FD to choose the best option right? The Kuro 151FD can go up to 36 bit, and says it when I press the Kuro's information button to show the tv's HDMI settings while the bd player is on playing a disc.

Last edited by oppopioneer; 11-28-2012 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:35 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
Ok, thanks for clarifying.

To be a little more specific about my specific tv (Pio Elite Kuro 151FD) and how it handles color space settings from the bd player. I'm not sure how the Kuro 151FD handles and converts the bd players Color Space options and settings. Are you familiar with the 151FD?
No I am not familar with the 151FD, the best way to make sure you are using the optimum settings is to get it calibrated, and measure the results using each colour space, to determine which one gives you the closest technically correct result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
This is a review and description of the 320/23FD bd player 'color space' option at HomeTheater.com below:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/p...blu-ray-player

So with my 23FD hooked up to my Kuro 151FD, setting the bd player to color space-Auto will allow the 151FD to choose the best option right? The Kuro 151FD can go up to 36 bit, and says it when I press the Kuro's information button to show the tv's HDMI settings while the bd player is on playing a disc.
Yes, although it might just select the first colour space listed, it doesn't mean its the optimum setting (as the 151FD will accept any of the 4 colour spaces), but I do not know what it defualts to when you set the player and display both to auto. Regarding 36-bit deep colour that applies to both RGB and YCbCr colour spaces.

Last edited by Tech-UK; 11-28-2012 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:07 PM   #304
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Just to add to my previous post, HDMI does not support YCbCr 4:2:2 with a colour depth higher than 24-bit per pixel (i.e. Deep Color isn't supported).

Blu-ray's don't actually have Deep Colour depths thus its just upsampled/duplicate information from the source.

Last edited by Tech-UK; 12-02-2012 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:38 PM   #305
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Where should these settings be for my Pio Elite 23FD bluray player connected to my Kuro PRO-151FD.

Video out - TV Aspect Ratio = 16:9 (Widescrean) or 4:3 Standard?
4:3 Video Out - Full or Normal?

HDMI High speed Transmission?
HDMI Color Space?
HDMI Audio Out?
Kuro Link?

Playback - Still Picture - Field or Frame or Auto?
Angle Secondary Indictator - On or Off?
Hybrid disc playback - BD or DVD or CD?
BDMV/BDAV playback priority = BDMV or BDAV
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:04 PM   #306
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Video out - TV Aspect Ratio = 16:9 (Widescreen)
4:3 Video Out - Normal (black bars are shown on the left and right as it should be on a 16:9 screen).

HDMI High speed Transmission - ON
HDMI Color Space - RGB 16-235
HDMI Audio Out - PCM (set it to auto if you want to bitstream the audio codecs). I have it set to PCM, for two reasons, 1. PQLS can be enabled, 2. Hear secondary audio and menu clicks etc. Setting it to PCM, means the player always decodes the audio, whereas AUTO in most cases (receiver dependant) bitstreams the audio.
Kuro Link - ON

Playback - Still Picture - AUTO (Doesn't matter, unless you are taking pictures with a camera i.e. screenshots/want the sharpest picture when paused. Although I highly recommend if not already set, the screensaver to appear when you pause a movie.)
Angle Secondary Indictator - OFF (Just indicates whether a secondary video/audio element is available).
Hybrid disc playback - BD or DVD or CD? (only applies to discs with for example a DVD and CD layer, which is rare).
BDMV/BDAV playback priority - BDMV (only applies if your viewing BD's with self recorded or seperate formats and you want to set the priority of which is automatically played back.)

Last edited by Tech-UK; 12-11-2012 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:14 PM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech-UK View Post
Video out - TV Aspect Ratio = 16:9 (Widescreen)
4:3 Video Out - Normal (black bars are shown on the left and right as it should be on a 16:9 screen).

HDMI High speed Transmission - ON
HDMI Color Space - RGB 16-235
HDMI Audio Out - PCM (set it to auto if you want to bitstream the audio codecs). I have it set to PCM, for two reasons, 1. PQLS can be enabled, 2. Hear secondary audio and menu clicks etc. Setting it to PCM, means the player always decodes the audio, whereas AUTO in most cases (receiver dependant) bitstreams the audio.
Kuro Link - ON

Playback - Still Picture - AUTO (Doesn't matter, unless you are taking pictures with a camera i.e. screenshots/want the sharpest picture when paused. Although I highly recommend if not already set, the screensaver to appear when you pause a movie.)
Angle Secondary Indictator - OFF (Just indicates whether a secondary video/audio element is available).
Hybrid disc playback - BD or DVD or CD? (only applies to discs with for example a DVD and CD layer, which is rare).
BDMV/BDAV playback priority - BDMV (only applies if your viewing BD's with self recorded or seperate formats and you want to set the priority of which is automatically played back.)
Ok, thanks for that.

My only questions is about HDMI Color Space. Some of the other forums recommend color space set to ycbr because they claim that requires less processing and blurays are more like ycbr instead of rgb. I read that RGB works better for dvd's. Mind you, I'm using a Pio Kuro plasma so how color space performs and reacts on your monitor might be different than mine.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:21 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
Ok, thanks for that.

My only questions is about HDMI Color Space. Some of the other forums recommend color space set to ycbr because they claim that requires less processing and blurays are more like ycbr instead of rgb. I read that RGB works better for dvd's. Mind you, I'm using a Pio Kuro plasma so how color space performs and reacts on your monitor might be different than mine.
No problem. Yes, as we have previously discussed, its down to one's equipment. The only way of finding out the optimum colour space, is it have a professional calibration or by using test discs etc, if you have the time/patience to learn it .
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:10 PM   #309
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No problem. Yes, as we have previously discussed, its down to one's equipment. The only way of finding out the optimum colour space, is it have a professional calibration or by using test discs etc, if you have the time/patience to learn it .
D-Nice who's an ISF professional calibrator said that the Pioneer Kuro 151FD plasma does internal processing in RGB.

They also said that RGB is best for dvd. I'm not sure. I'd like to discuss this too with D-Nice and Kevin Millar who are ISF Calibrators.

But you think if I set my bd player to output 'Source Direct' and set the bd player's Color Space to RGB 16-235 it's doing the least amount of processing and sampling and sending the native content through the bd player to the Kuro?

http://www.highdefjunkies.com/archiv.../t-11038.html?

Last edited by oppopioneer; 12-12-2012 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:12 AM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
D-Nice who's an ISF professional calibrator said that the Pioneer Kuro 151FD plasma does internal processing in RGB.

They also said that RGB is best for dvd. I'm not sure. I'd like to discuss this too with D-Nice and Kevin Millar who are ISF Calibrators.

But you think if I set my bd player to output 'Source Direct' and set the bd player's Color Space to RGB 16-235 it's doing the least amount of processing and sampling and sending the native content through the bd player to the Kuro?

http://www.highdefjunkies.com/archiv.../t-11038.html?
I believe he did say that. Like you said, your best getting in touch with D-Nice and Kevin Millar, for a firmer answer.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:04 PM   #311
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Teck-UK, thanks for the info...

Are you sure it's D-Nice and other members who said that it's best to set the bd player to RGB 16-235 or RGB 0-255? Do they recommend setting the bd player to RGB 16-235 for Pioneer Kuro displays only or for all displays (Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, LG etc) ?

D-Nice and Kevin Miller did said that Pioneer Kuro's do their processing or sampling in RGB. Now do you know if Pio Kuro displays do their processing or sampling in RGB 16-235 or RGB 0-255?
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:31 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
Teck-UK, thanks for the info...

Are you sure it's D-Nice and other members who said that it's best to set the bd player to RGB 16-235 or RGB 0-255? Do they recommend setting the bd player to RGB 16-235 for Pioneer Kuro displays only or for all displays (Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, LG etc) ?

D-Nice and Kevin Miller did said that Pioneer Kuro's do their processing or sampling in RGB. Now do you know if Pio Kuro displays do their processing or sampling in RGB 16-235 or RGB 0-255?
RGB 16-235 is known as video or limited range. And RGB 0-255 as PC or Full range. The key here is the range with the word video.

At the end of the day, all displays have to convert anything they receive to RGB, so that it can be displayed by the pixels. Whats important here, is where the conversion happens, as we have aleady established, that Blu-rays are encoded with YCbCr 4:2:0. This means that presumably the Kuro's are better to be fed an RGB signal, which has been converted by the player. The Kuro doesn't have to do any processing between color spaces (I believe).

So the optimal setting should be set on both the player and Kuro to RGB 16-235/color space type 3 (this will lock the Kuro to only accept an RGB 16-235 signal, thus preventing problems with color space negotiation, but RGB 16-235 must be set as the outputted color space on your 23FD).

But I really think you should get hold of either of the two guys mentioned, maybe PM them over on AVS. As I would also like clarification .
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:39 PM   #313
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So the optimal setting should be set on both the player and Kuro to RGB 16-235/color space type 3 (this will lock the Kuro to only accept an RGB 16-235 signal, thus preventing problems with color space negotiation, but RGB 16-235 must be set as the outputted color space on your 23FD).
Ok, thanks for clarifying.

With regards to the specific quote above. I do have my 23FD bd player set to RGB 16-235. Now what does "Color Space type 3" mean? Is that some where in the bd player or do I need to select that in the Kuro plasma and where?

Also, on a seperate topic regarding color space technology for tv's. Will tv's always be in RGB or would it be better someday for tv's to be designed with ycbcr 4:2:0 or ycbcr 4:2:2: or??
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:32 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
Ok, thanks for clarifying.

With regards to the specific quote above. I do have my 23FD bd player set to RGB 16-235. Now what does "Color Space type 3" mean? Is that some where in the bd player or do I need to select that in the Kuro plasma and where?

Also, on a seperate topic regarding color space technology for tv's. Will tv's always be in RGB or would it be better someday for tv's to be designed with ycbcr 4:2:0 or ycbcr 4:2:2: or??
Type 3/color 3 is the RGB 16-235 option on the Kuro, here's how to access it:

Quote:
To assign the type of digital signal, follow the steps below.
1 ) Access the Option through the Setup.
2 ) Select HDMI Input from the Option menu.
3 ) Select Video from the submenu.
4 ) Select the type of digital video signal recommended for the attached device. Color 3
As you may know, a display is a matrix of pixels (CRT, LCD's, plasma, LED's, etc have their own way of producing colour) made up of Red, Green and Blue sub-pixels, the color space basically drives the pixels, letting them know which one, what combination and brightness, which results in the picture you see. There are a few different additions to this, for example Sharp Quattron RGBY based panels, which adds a Yellow sub-pixel.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:14 AM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech-UK View Post
Type 3/color 3 is the RGB 16-235 option on the Kuro, here's how to access it:



As you may know, a display is a matrix of pixels (CRT, LCD's, plasma, LED's, etc have their own way of producing colour) made up of Red, Green and Blue sub-pixels, the color space basically drives the pixels, letting them know which one, what combination and brightness, which results in the picture you see. There are a few different additions to this, for example Sharp Quattron RGBY based panels, which adds a Yellow sub-pixel.
What in the hell are you guys talking about??? Way over my head. Sorta.

So for my 23FD connected to my Kuro it should be RGB 16-235? What should it be for my 23FD connected to my Sony widescreen tube?
Modern
Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020FD TV
Pioneer BDP-23FD Blu-Ray
Pioneer SC-67 Receiver
Old School
Sony KD-34XS955 TV
Pioneer HLD-X9 Laserdisc Player

Last edited by Pondosinatra; 12-13-2012 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:25 AM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech-UK View Post
Type 3/color 3 is the RGB 16-235 option on the Kuro, here's how to access it:



As you may know, a display is a matrix of pixels (CRT, LCD's, plasma, LED's, etc have their own way of producing colour) made up of Red, Green and Blue sub-pixels, the color space basically drives the pixels, letting them know which one, what combination and brightness, which results in the picture you see. There are a few different additions to this, for example Sharp Quattron RGBY based panels, which adds a Yellow sub-pixel.
Ok, thanks for this info.

Does D-Nice recommend setting the Pio Kuro plasmas to Color Space 3 or just set the bd player to RGB 16-235 or does he recommend all tv's be set to this? I haven't read any where yet where anyone has mentioned setting the Kuro to Color Space 3. I sent D-Nice a message over at AVS but he hasn't been on there for months. I was wondering if you know for sure the Pio Kuro plasma needs to be set to Color Space 3 too?
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:27 AM   #317
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What in the hell are you guys talking about??? Way over my head. Sorta.

So for my 23FD connected to my Kuro it should be RGB 16-235? What should it be for my 23FD connected to my Sony widescreen tube?
I'm not sure. What I do is ask questions in the section of a forum of the specific electronic device I have. I would ask this question at the Sony big tube section here or at avsforum.com and highdefjunkies.com. Maybe Teck-UK knows?
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:31 AM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
I'm not sure. What I do is ask questions in the section of a forum of the specific electronic device I have. I would ask this question at the Sony big tube section here or at avsforum.com and highdefjunkies.com. Maybe Teck-UK knows?
Hey. So there hasn't been a firmware update in forever. Is that because Pioneer has simply moved on to other models or that they finally got all the issues fixed???
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Pioneer BDP-23FD Blu-Ray
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Pioneer HLD-X9 Laserdisc Player
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:38 AM   #319
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Hey. So there hasn't been a firmware update in forever. Is that because Pioneer has simply moved on to other models or that they finally got all the issues fixed???
Not sure. Last firmware was the 3.73 that I know of. I check Pio's website once every 2 months or so just to see.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:56 AM   #320
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Ok, thanks for this info.

Does D-Nice recommend setting the Pio Kuro plasmas to Color Space 3 or just set the bd player to RGB 16-235 or does he recommend all tv's be set to this? I haven't read any where yet where anyone has mentioned setting the Kuro to Color Space 3. I sent D-Nice a message over at AVS but he hasn't been on there for months. I was wondering if you know for sure the Pio Kuro plasma needs to be set to Color Space 3 too?
If you have set your 23FD to 16-235 and your Kuro is set to its default of 'auto', the Kuro will accept whats given to it. In this case RGB 16-235. Setting the color space on the Kuro, just ensures that it receives an RGB signal. Sometimes 'auto' may give you strange results, depending on the source, i.e. the connected player.
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