4K Projectors from Sony and JVC

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by Badas

I checked out the Sony 4K at the beginning of the year. I must say I was impressed. I have it on my short list for a replacement next year. I must say I'm leaning towards the new JVC with E-shift 2 and 130,000:1 Native contrast. That thing was stella at half the price.

Ta Dono

I am pretty stoked about seeing it. Ever since I read Art's review over at Projectorreviews I have become more and more curious as to how it really performs. Unfortunately, I doubt that a JVC with E-shift 2 will be on hand for a comparison. I am also curious to see how any of the demo 4K content is fed to it. I wish I could feed it the 330 GB 4K Cineform file of TimeScapes by Tom Lowe! As of now, I think that is the only consumer available content you can get your mitts on.

http://www.timescapes.org/products/

I'm a little apprehensive with early adoption. The ITU-R finalized the Rec 2020 color gamut and spec for UHDTV several months ago and I'm eagerly awaiting to see if any future 4K Blu-Ray content will adopt that wider color gamut before jumping on the 4K band wagon as well. Ultimately, increased pixel density isn't enough to sell me on it if we will still only have access 8 bit Rec 709 content.

Check it out:

Rec 2020 vs Rec 709


Now that has me excited!

In the mean time I think your right about the JVC for the win.

[EMAGDNIM]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

Might have a chance to check out the 4k Sony VPL-VW1000 in two weeks. I'll post my impressions later. Did anyone have any questions they'd like me to ask if a Sony rep is around about the thing?

I've had the chance to view it a few times and it's one of the best images that I've seen...Seriously, you'll be impressed.

Then you'll think of ways to come up with the $18K

I always told myself that I'll be in for true 4K tech once it's below $10K. I actually bought the RS55 (E Shift) model from JVC and so far it's been amazing. I'm interested in seeing what E Shift2 will look on the models that should be released soon.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

Check it out:

Rec 2020 vs Rec 709


Now that has me excited!

That's even a bit better than Technicolor RGB 25/58/47 separation filters and the original NTSC coordinates

[Badas]

Originally Posted by EMAGDNIM

I've had the chance to view it a few times and it's one of the best images that I've seen...Seriously, you'll be impressed.

Then you'll think of ways to come up with the $18K

I always told myself that I'll be in for true 4K tech once it's below $10K. I actually bought the RS55 (E Shift) model from JVC and so far it's been amazing. I'm interested in seeing what E Shift2 will look on the models that should be released soon.

That's the JVC that I viewed. I was really impressed. I also viewed this and the Sony one week apart. On blu I couldn't notice a difference. The Sony demoed the Spider trailer of a mainframe at 4k. I could see about a 5% better difference on that.

I think the JVC's are a good alternative at a better price.

I also came to a conclusion when I looked at the Sony 4k that it wouldn't be better than the JVC unless the screen was larger than 150".

I couldn't fit that in my room.

Ta Dono

[Trogdor2010]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

I'm a little apprehensive with early adoption. The ITU-R finalized the Rec 2020 color gamut and spec for UHDTV several months ago and I'm eagerly awaiting to see if any future 4K Blu-Ray content will adopt that wider color gamut before jumping on the 4K band wagon as well. Ultimately, increased pixel density isn't enough to sell me on it if we will still only have access 8 bit Rec 709 content.

Check it out:

Rec 2020 vs Rec 709


Now that has me excited!

In the mean time I think your right about the JVC for the win.

Wow! That is pretty sweet they are adopting that wide of a color spectrum as a standard. Although I'm pretty doubtful it will be featured on Blu-ray, let alone 4K bluray, especially if it means we'll need 12-bit color, and that is actually a lot of data. Also, unless if I'm mistaken, wouldn't that Timescape movie still use 8-bit color?

Please make a digital download client for 4K, movies, or at least Steam release 4K movies.

Edit: Forgot about Vudu, just would be nice if there is a site that focuses on full, uncompressed video.

[wormraper]

nice, I'll pass though till we can get them for under $2k

[Badas]

Originally Posted by wormraper

nice, I'll pass though till we can get them for under $2k

Get ready to wait a loooooooooooooooooooong time.

Dono

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by Trogdor2010

Wow! That is pretty sweet they are adopting that wide of a color spectrum as a standard. Although I'm pretty doubtful it will be featured on Blu-ray, let alone 4K bluray, especially if it means we'll need 12-bit color, and that is actually a lot of data. Also, unless if I'm mistaken, wouldn't that Timescape movie still use 8-bit color?

Please make a digital download client for 4K, movies, or at least Steam release 4K movies.

Edit: Forgot about Vudu, just would be nice if there is a site that focuses on full, uncompressed video.

Well I'm hoping they adopt the Rec 2020 standard for UHDTV (4K) Blu-Ray as it is my understating that the ITU-R built that in to the new UHDTV spec. It seems short sighted to just ignore what the International Telecom Union settled on. But who knows the ITU-R and the Blu-Ray Disc Association are totally separate organizations with different variables at play. The ITU-R is more focused on setting a set broadcast standard, so that may have no bearing on what winds up on disc. So fingers crossed, as that seems like the holy grail right there.

You know Timescapes has two 4K versions available for purchase. The $100 dollar version is a USB stick shipped with a 31 Gig mp4 with a bit rate of 80 Mbits. I'm not sure if that is 8 bit color or what. BUT, then there is the 12 bit 330 Gig 4K Cineform file that ships to you on its own hard drive for $300! If I win that Powerball tomorrow then I'm buying either the Sony or the 4K Sim2/Christie and sending off for that Timescapes hard drive lol.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Badas

Get ready to wait a loooooooooooooooooooong time.

Dono

exactly, Until they're inexpensive and mainstream there's no reason for me to even care about them.

[Flatnate]

No powerball for me = No 4K for Nate, Dang.

[Badas]

My only reservation on the Sony 4k is it's dynamic Iris. Some reviewers have measured the native contrast of the Sony 4k at only 10,000:1. When compared to the JVC's that is not great. Wouldn't want to outlay the $$ and notice the Iris.

Ta Dono

[EMAGDNIM]

Originally Posted by Badas

My only reservation on the Sony 4k is it's dynamic Iris. Some reviewers have measured the native contrast of the Sony 4k at only 10,000:1. When compared to the JVC's that is not great. Wouldn't want to outlay the $$ and notice the Iris.

Ta Dono

I did not notice the iris during my viewing and I'm very anal when it comes to that.

[Flatnate]

I'll definitely be looking for the iris when I see it in person. I'm not sure if it will be tougher to make out coming from a JVC product myself or not.

[Badas]

Originally Posted by EMAGDNIM

I did not notice the iris during my viewing and I'm very anal when it comes to that.

Originally Posted by Flatnate

I'll definitely be looking for the iris when I see it in person. I'm not sure if it will be tougher to make out coming from a JVC product myself or not.

I just wish there wasn't one. No matter what the projector is cheating.

Ta Dono

[Trogdor2010]

Originally Posted by Badas

I just wish there wasn't one. No matter what the projector is cheating.

Ta Dono

There isn't anything wrong with it having an automatic iris, as long as you can turn it off. If you don't notice the light "pulsing", it can be an improvement. But yeah, having it on that high end of a projector is kind of counter productive.

[Flatnate]

Just got back from the demo, so I figure I should put my thoughts down on here before I begin to forget stuff!

First off wow, it is a suhweet projector... and it better be for that kind of money. Great colors, great shadow detail, I would say the black levels easily rivaled my JVC (probably better being my room isn't that dark and kinda sucks) and I never once was able to catch the dynamic iris at work. I tried to spot it but I just couldn't do it. I put my nose practically on the screen and you can't really make out pixels at any distance. You could sit two feet away if that was your cup of tea. Physically its a tank, but has better lines than a clunkier and pricier Runco three-chip DLP unit. Upscaling 1080p content was good, I never saw any weird artifacts like you could sometimes make out when up-scaling DVD to 1080p on stuff a few years ago. Overall, Blu-Ray was just a little softer than 4K native content.

One thing I learned was that it probably would work with any consumer anamorphic lens. I was originally under the impression that you would need a 1.25:1 lens stretch (vs the standard consumer 1.33x stretch) with it due to its DCinema chip size. However the rep told me that for UHD content of 3840x2160 that it essentially does not use the entire imaging panel so I would assume that means 2.35:1 Blu-Ray anamorphically stretched for a standard lens would work fine. So that is way cool!

However once seeing its zoom/lens memory shift at work you would have a tough time selling the benefits of the a 10k lens. You just already have so much resolution at your disposal that I'm not sure the small increase in brightness versus zooming; as well as the nearly impercievable increase in pixel density could justify any of the possible negative artifacts that the lens might introduce. For similar money, I would probably take this projector over a top end JVC 1080p model and an ISCO lens.

The rep said it would work with the upcoming REDRAY player, as well as any future 4K Blu-Ray standard. When queried about his thoughts on 4K Blu-Ray he was guessing that it comes in about 18 months, and probably with 8 bit color too (bummer... hope he is wrong on that. I want to see 10bit color and Rec 2020 colorimetry). Meanwhile, if you buy a Sony 4K display Sony will essentially lend you a server (which isn't yours mind you) with some good stuff loaded on it.

Okay so here is where the rubber hits the road. In short, I think you need to use this thing with a monster screen to get the full benefit. Either that or move your seating closer than the traditional SMPTE guidelines, closer perhaps than the current THX guidelines. Screen was about 120 inches diagonal and scope dimensions. I was about thirteen feet away... guess I need new glasses. With standard up-scaled Blu-Ray the difference was noticeable but not an improvement to where I would run out the door and sell my JVC and car to get one! The true 4K stuff really shined, you could clearly make out the increased definition. In fact it was so good that you could actually make out some of what appeared to be digital noise that exists on the 4K Tom Lowe Timescapes documentary (not sure if it was from the camera, compression, or what there). Either way no visible pixel structure at pretty much any viewing distance is cool. Can't wait for this tech to drop in price.

[Trogdor2010]

Hey Thanks for telling us about the demo Nate! I'd figured the projector to be a winner!

Originally Posted by Flatnate

One thing I learned was that it probably would work with any consumer anamorphic lens. I was originally under the impression that you would need a 1.25:1 lens stretch (vs the standard consumer 1.33x stretch) with it due to its DCinema chip size. However the rep told me that for UHD content of 3840x2160 that it essentially does not use the entire imaging panel so I would assume that means 2.35:1 Blu-Ray anamorphically stretched for a standard lens would work fine. So that is way cool!

However once seeing its zoom/lens memory shift at work you would have a tough time selling the benefits of the a 10k lens. You just already have so much resolution at your disposal that I'm not sure the small increase in brightness versus zooming; as well as the nearly impercievable increase in pixel density could justify any of the possible negative artifacts that the lens might introduce. For similar money, I would probably take this projector over a top end JVC 1080p model and an ISCO lens.

I'd figured it could simply use the 3840x2160 section to stretch the content for a normal 1.33x HE Lens. An ISCO lens was a tough sell anyway, but I'm still surprised they haven't made a 5160x2160 (2.39:1) "scope" chip with internal mechanical lens masking to block light, which I still believe would be the best way to. I'm still annoyed about that. Still, going "Zoom" is still great for most people, especially with many of today's projectors that can be both bright and deep blacks.

The rep said it would work with the upcoming REDRAY player, as well as any future 4K Blu-Ray standard. When queried about his thoughts on 4K Blu-Ray he was guessing that it comes in about 18 months, and probably with 8 bit color too (bummer... hope he is wrong on that. I want to see 10bit color and Rec 2020 colorimetry). Meanwhile, if you buy a Sony 4K display Sony will essentially lend you a server (which isn't yours mind you) with some good stuff loaded on it.

Okay so here is where the rubber hits the road. In short, I think you need to use this thing with a monster screen to get the full benefit. Either that or move your seating closer than the traditional SMPTE guidelines, closer perhaps than the current THX guidelines. Screen was about 120 inches diagonal and scope dimensions. I was about thirteen feet away... guess I need new glasses. With standard up-scaled Blu-Ray the difference was noticeable but not an improvement to where I would run out the door and sell my JVC and car to get one! The true 4K stuff really shined, you could clearly make out the increased definition. In fact it was so good that you could actually make out some of what appeared to be digital noise that exists on the 4K Tom Lowe Timescapes documentary (not sure if it was from the camera, compression, or what there). Either way no visible pixel structure at pretty much any viewing distance is cool. Can't wait for this tech to drop in price.

Sony could easily make an expansion box for it to be used with most modern graphics cards with DVI and DisplayPort. These high end companies should be supporting Displayport or even DVI rather than HDMI if they are really going slow on support for 4K and 3D. It's more than possible to have both 4K and 3D at 60Hz content from modern computers (although it needs to be really powerful, but still, if you pay that kind of cash on the projector, why should making a powerful computer be a problem?).

[Badas]

Nate,

Thanks for your report / impressions. Some are very similar to what I thought. I don't get into the tech side of things too much and some of the stuff they told me went over my head. However I was impressed with the build, Lens and decent Lamp. Did it blow things out of the water for me. No.

I am more amped about the JVC E-Shift. Really thinking of pulling the trigger on that this year. I think it is a realistic mid point between 1080P and 4K.

One thing that is bugging me tho. Peter Jacksons HFR (High Frame Rate). What are these projectors going to do with that????

So part of me is thinking. Wait. See what happens.

Ta Dono

[Badas]

Side Note#

Trogdor Just checked out your Gallery. You have some mad engineering skills. Well done. 10/10.

Ta Dono

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by Badas

Nate,

Thanks for your report / impressions. Some are very similar to what I thought. I don't get into the tech side of things too much and some of the stuff they told me went over my head. However I was impressed with the build, Lens and decent Lamp. Did it blow things out of the water for me. No.

I am more amped about the JVC E-Shift. Really thinking of pulling the trigger on that this year. I think it is a realistic mid point between 1080P and 4K.

One thing that is bugging me tho. Peter Jacksons HFR (High Frame Rate). What are these projectors going to do with that????

So part of me is thinking. Wait. See what happens.

Ta Dono

I think with 1080p Blu-Ray being the standard for a few years, that this is probably the smart move.

I'd really like to poke my nose up against a screen with JVC E-shift for a close look now. I mean I was most impressed by the Sony when my nose was practically on the screen.

I've posted that "screen size versus viewing distance chart" on the forums before and some folks poo poo that thing but it mostly holds true. My eyes just are not THAT good that at a THX viewing distance that any of this stuff becomes "night and day". It was pretty much what I expected in that regard. And I wasn't kidding in that I probably do need new glasses.

You know the high frame rate stuff is a real head scratcher, and I never thought to ask the rep about it. 3D is not my forte. I think a lot of this hinges on both the Blu-Ray Disc Association and any final 4k Blu-Ray spec and if HDMI can even do 48fps in 3d?.... I'm not sure it can? I dunno, I'll look in to that.

Trogdor is right in that this caliber of projector is so good it would make sense to outfit it with DisplayPort or something other than just HDMI. Not just for gamers but folks doing Photoshop work, video editing, disc authoring etc.

If I had won the Powerball, I still think my wife may have slapped me for buying it at that price over the JVC. She tagged along and thought it was neat but rolled her eyes at the price tag.