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Old 12-26-2012, 02:32 AM   #4321
pagemaster pagemaster is offline
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Originally Posted by Spicoli View Post
This is the reason I will not ever go to the cloud. Trusting a source to protect my product I cannot do. I need to possess physically my media.

In the future I do not care if it is on cd's, thumbs, passbooks...whatever.

I watch when I want to watch not when you say I can.
Its not like you can't go out and rent a movie from the RedBox machine if the Netflix account is down.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:48 PM   #4322
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Originally Posted by pagemaster View Post
VHS did not die until about 2005-2006. VHS finally died when DVD was at mass consumption and acceptance level. But it was not footprint at all which eventually ended VHS....it was a much better product in that of DVD.
yup. And that is both points

The one I brought up much earlier thread: why are so many people freaking out, it took roughly 10 years for DVD to replace VHS and BD has only been around 6. Maybe it might have doine it in 6 but how can anyone know how long it will take BD to replace DVD completely? If it happens next year or the year after then BD would have taken off faster then DVD, if it is in 3-4 then it would be roughly the same, if it is 5 or 6 then again it would have been a bit slower but nothing where it would make sense to freak out and ask the question (after all DVD was the fastest adopted tech in history), but at this point no one knows how long it will be. It always takes time, when tech is new only the enthusiasts know about it, only the relatively well off can afford it because the companies need to recuperate their R&D... But word of mouth, lower prices, availability... all take time until you get to the point where the only reason anyone buys the old tech is that it is cheap and at that point it makes no sense to continue it and subsidise the old tech.


And the point that was made in my last post that when tech is clearly better (i.e. everyone agrees) then it eventually replaces the old (no more CRT TVs, no more VHS, no more 78 rpm records no more audio tapes) when it is just new but not accepted by everyone as better then it never does (33 rpm records are still around because some people think they sound better and still chose to buy and listen to them even though CDs came out 30 years ago, CDs are still the lions share of music sales.....
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:02 PM   #4323
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Originally Posted by pagemaster View Post
Ok, I understand what you are saying.

So what you are saying is that there is no reason for DVD anymore if there is a blu ray available?
I agree with that but I think his point is simpler (and one that I kind of made earlier. If someone does not care if it looks good or not then who cares if it is LOA or Ted. If you care and you want the best experience then why would you care more about seeing the grains of sand more clearly but not the fur on Teds coat.

We can all understand the economic perspective (I found the DVD for much less so I got it to save a few $) but that does not negate the fact that the person also decided to degrade their experience of that film be that film LOA or the vow or anything else one mentions). Now maybe you might think/say “but I care for LOA so I am willing to pay that difference but not for ______” but that does not change the fact that if someone is objective and not subjective that both those films would benefit the same from BD.

That is why I say if a film is worth seeing/buying then it is worth to get it on BD. I value my time way ore than the few bucks difference in price, I can always make a few more bucks, spend a bit elsewhere.... but I can’t make add 2 hours to a day to see something that I don’ care about.
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:50 PM   #4324
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Originally Posted by fathergll View Post
What does knowing what people are buying prove anything when its pirated like crazy for the last 10+?
everything and in any discussion
Quote:
Take 100 people who listen to music. Say 50 of those people pirate all their music. 30 of them buy CDs and 20 of them buy MP3s. According to a sales revenue you would think CDs are dominate but the reality is 70 of them are using MP3 exclusive.
No, if it is 50,30, 20 then it is 50,30 20 (but if you wanted more realistic numbers it would be more like 50, 35, 15) how do you know what those 50 that are listening to pirate music are doing? what idf all the 50 are listening to wave or none compressed MP3, then it wouild mean that it would be 85% that are listening to higher quality music then itunes and only 15% to itunes or lower. If you have stats on the pirates then post them, but that is the issue about you can't know what they are listening to (care about quality or not) just that they don't see it as wrong and so they say why pay for what I can get for free.


Quote:
"Why did blu ray not take of like DVD's ?" He didn't pull that out of thin air.....BD never did catch on like DVDs.
actualy he did.


can you show me (actual numbers) where else he would have gotten it from?

Quote:
You're referring to the vinyl section at Best Buy that has maybe a dozen albums? If thats the future of CD then its a bleak one indeed.
there is more than just BB. at BB I just pointed out the electronics, since BB is more an electroncs store than a content store.
Quote:
Some do that...most don't go into advance settings, change the bitrate and copy music to their HD in a lossless format.
how do you know, until a few posts earlier you did not know that DL purchases were just a drop in the basket. Now you are pretending that the guy that will take the time to go and buy the CD, rip it to their PC transfer it to his ipod just to have better quality instead of getting it directly from Apple won't take the 2 second one time deal of making sure it is in the best quality
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:31 PM   #4325
biznus97 biznus97 is offline
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Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post
I agree with that but I think his point is simpler (and one that I kind of made earlier. If someone does not care if it looks good or not then who cares if it is LOA or Ted. If you care and you want the best experience then why would you care more about seeing the grains of sand more clearly but not the fur on Teds coat.

We can all understand the economic perspective (I found the DVD for much less so I got it to save a few $) but that does not negate the fact that the person also decided to degrade their experience of that film be that film LOA or the vow or anything else one mentions). Now maybe you might think/say “but I care for LOA so I am willing to pay that difference but not for ______” but that does not change the fact that if someone is objective and not subjective that both those films would benefit the same from BD.

That is why I say if a film is worth seeing/buying then it is worth to get it on BD. I value my time way ore than the few bucks difference in price, I can always make a few more bucks, spend a bit elsewhere.... but I can’t make add 2 hours to a day to see something that I don’ care about.
While I get what you are saying, the reality is that people who have been collecting movies for more than just one format have already bought many of the movies available today on BD. So the question isn't are they willing to spend the extra few bucks. It's figuring out if the differences (good and bad) substantial enough to re-buy the movie for a second (3rd or 4th) time. Then there is the question of will it be released on BD for a second (3rd or 4th) time.
I think we all know this won't be the last format to come around. Advancements in audio and video will continue, resolutions will get higher, more special features will be made. There are many BD releases available that aren't very good. If they aren't re-released on BD then they may be corrected on another format. This has happened from DVD to BD on releases.
You could say that people who chose not to buy subpar BD releases of movies they own on DVD are settling since the BD may offer a slight improvement. You could also say that people who buy subpar releases of movies are settling since a better job could have been done.
Lastly, as with any hobby sometimes you have to take a step back a realize that there is a point of diminishing returns. Everyone reaches this point at different places. In the a/v world, someone can spend tens of thousands of dollars on high end gear, spend more time fiddling with their system than using it and still walk away unhappy. Then there are people who listen and enjoy tons of music and movies from an iPad. I've never met a person that was objective about everything.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:55 PM   #4326
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Originally Posted by fathergll View Post
Same reason film is still around. Its an extremely pleasing format to many that that can't be fully duplicated digitally. Vinyl is a niche market.
agree, and that is the point now how stupid is it to believe that everyone will accept low quality audio?

The only difference is that records are niche because most prefer the low noise floor of digital to the high noise floor of records that also degrades over time (i.e. " I don't want the hisses and pops of the record")

Quote:
Nut job? There's nothing I said that hasn't been said many times in various articles by analysts in various industries or other threads even here.
yup and they are all nut jobs, there are many "analysts" that also predicted BD would die and HD-DVD would the next wave. Someone would have needed to be a nut job to believe that and yet there were many such nut jobs, what is your point



Quote:
Stop quoting what % of the market it holds and start comparing how much CDs themselves have lost in the last 15 years

OK let's forget market share for a minute (even though your comment was on what % - market share- are interested in quality for the music/video they listen to and let's look at your chart and numbers.


Yes album sales are down from the peak of 2000, but music sells albums and so years with crappy music will mean less sales that most likely explains the slight variance pre-2000. So how much of the loss is because record labels are going after crappy music based on Youtube clicks.

second your graph ends in 2010, 2011 and from what pro-bassoonist posted earlier it appears that sales are going back up

thirdly, look at your graph closely look at how it is more or less stable until a few years after CD starts coming into play and then it grew by a lot? could some of that growth be because there is no singles with CD (so if someone wanted a song they had to buy the album?) could it be because people that had the record (or cassette) would go out and re-buy the album on CD to have the CD version?

fourthly look at the graph again it is more or less straight it is 440 give or take 110k until CD starts catching on (I know I mentioned it before but now I want you to see something else), now look at a few years ago, we are back at those numbers again 440 give or take 110 depending on the year.

Lastly, I have no idea what a pampelmoose or where they got those numbers, so if those charts are wrong my comments were built on those charts alone (except for 2011 and 2012)
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:31 PM   #4327
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Originally Posted by biznus97 View Post
While I get what you are saying, the reality is that people who have been collecting movies for more than just one format have already bought many of the movies available today on BD. So the question isn't are they willing to spend the extra few bucks. It's figuring out if the differences (good and bad) substantial enough to re-buy the movie for a second (3rd or 4th) time. Then there is the question of will it be released on BD for a second (3rd or 4th) time.
I think we all know this won't be the last format to come around. Advancements in audio and video will continue, resolutions will get higher, more special features will be made. There are many BD releases available that aren't very good. If they aren't re-released on BD then they may be corrected on another format. This has happened from DVD to BD on releases.
You could say that people who chose not to buy subpar BD releases of movies they own on DVD are settling since the BD may offer a slight improvement. You could also say that people who buy subpar releases of movies are settling since a better job could have been done.
Lastly, as with any hobby sometimes you have to take a step back a realize that there is a point of diminishing returns. Everyone reaches this point at different places. In the a/v world, someone can spend tens of thousands of dollars on high end gear, spend more time fiddling with their system than using it and still walk away unhappy. Then there are people who listen and enjoy tons of music and movies from an iPad. I've never met a person that was objective about everything.
agree, with most of what you say, and the truth is that before BD came out I was thinking that I could live with DVD quality, and now I am hoping I can live with BD quality when 4k comes out. The issue is that it is a discussion on quality, when pagemaster thinks "I don't care for that film so I will watch it on DVD, it is not objective but subjective and it is all about the money being spent and nothing about the quality. If there is an improvement and I have yet to see a film I have on BD and DVD not have one, then what could really make one movie worth it and the other not?
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:51 PM   #4328
biznus97 biznus97 is offline
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Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post
agree, with most of what you say, and the truth is that before BD came out I was thinking that I could live with DVD quality, and now I am hoping I can live with BD quality when 4k comes out. The issue is that it is a discussion on quality, when pagemaster thinks "I don't care for that film so I will watch it on DVD, it is not objective but subjective and it is all about the money being spent and nothing about the quality. If there is an improvement and I have yet to see a film I have on BD and DVD not have one, then what could really make one movie worth it and the other not?
Good points. Assuming a good job is done on the film on both formats BD should be the way to go . In a perfect world all films would be available on the latest and greatest formats simply because one man's trash is another man's treasure.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:51 PM   #4329
U4K61 U4K61 is offline
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Originally Posted by krazeyeyez View Post
Anyone ever notice how many of the "can't see a difference" people choose to watch there cable shows in hd and can see a difference there...
Same here...
Good PQ: HDMI > Component > S-video > Composite > Analogue RF; Screen Size + Viwing Distance + Source
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Old 12-29-2012, 05:00 PM   #4330
mdo7 mdo7 is offline
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USA I guess several factors contribute to this

Please recall when DVDs first came out in 1995, it didn't pick up immediately, so I don't see Blu-ray not taking off from the beginning any different from DVDs when they first came out in 1995, it didn't get popular until after 2000. I remember I had some early copies of DVDs (I believe Diva was one of those early DVD release that came out during DVD-video early year)



I watch it and the picture quality was not really good. and the menu doesn't look good as the re-released version with better menu and picture quality.



above is the re-release version with better picture quality and better menu. I would like to see a blu-ray release if that's possible. But yeah DVD didn't pick up immediately when it first came out and the video quality on DVD wasn't good back then until like in 2000 where digital remaster on film improve films on DVD both in term of pictures and audio quality.

For Blu-ray beside the economy problem and not much improvement when it first came out until several factors made blu-ray well better. I can list factor why Blu-ray didn't pick up:

-not a lot of special features (early blu-rays would have same special features like DVD).
-economy problem
-format war (remember Blu-ray had competition against HD-DVD, so that could be another factor why Blu-ray didn't pick up)
-Blu ray is also going up against streaming (Netflix) and movie downloads (Itunes, etc...)

But I've seen Blu-ray got better probably due to these:

-Blu-ray 3D
-BD-Live
-Blu-ray won the format war against HD-DVD
-Exclusive special features found on Blu-ray but not on DVDs (my Bond 50 blu-ray had a bonus disc with special features that the DVDs doesn't have, the same thing for Halo Legends blu-ray, it had one exclusive special features not found on DVD)
-Blu-ray is getting improvement (I heard something about a 100+ GB blu-ray coming out in the future )

So as Blu-ray improve, I guess people will buy more Blu-ray. As I said, when DVD first came out in 1995, it didn't pick up immediately.

Last edited by mdo7; 12-29-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:02 PM   #4331
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Originally Posted by biznus97 View Post
It's figuring out if the differences (good and bad) substantial enough to re-buy the movie for a second (3rd or 4th) time. Then there is the question of will it be released on BD for a second (3rd or 4th) time.
I agree with you here, most serious people need a very good reason to buy a new blu ray of a movie they already have. A movie like Lawrence of Arabia, Baraka, Patton and the Sound of Music beg to be collected by those with good equipment to watch them on. But a film like The Vow or the Beginners, most people do not and wont care about those types of movies, they just want to watch the film.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:46 AM   #4332
alphadec alphadec is offline
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The problem is "INTERNET" that is the reason.

But lets say something happens in your life that you cannot afford to have a internet connection or some economical situation so u must close your internet. Right then it would be nice to have stored your movies on a optical medium like cd/blu-ray.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:04 PM   #4333
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Originally Posted by alphadec View Post
The problem is "INTERNET" that is the reason.

But lets say something happens in your life that you cannot afford to have a internet connection or some economical situation so u must close your internet. Right then it would be nice to have stored your movies on a optical medium like cd/blu-ray.
Some truth in this, but there are people like myself who enjoy collecting films. I have a large collection of laserdiscs, dvds, and some blu rays. The issue with blu ray is that the image quality is only great if you spend the money and get a HDTV and listen to the movie on a good sound system.

Most consumers do not care about perfect picture or HD quality sound. Also, there are people who do not want the movies collection taking up space.

The future will be downloading and streaming for most people, and then there will be blu rays for the people who really want them. It will kind of be like the laserdisc era all over again.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:08 PM   #4334
thejej thejej is offline
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Personally, I like UV better because I can access my movie collection anywhere as long as I have an internet connection. There are a few Blu-Ray titles I am looking into getting but that's just because they're part of a set (per se the Harry Potter Wizard's Collection). I personally see everything going digital. In about 20 years, about the only thing that won't be digital is the advertisements telling you to go digital.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:59 PM   #4335
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Why did blu ray not take off like DVD's ?

A few reasons I think in no particular order...

The economy. Bd's and bd players and the whole 1080p HD era was launched around the financial collapse. Consumers and electronic companies took a hit. Pioneer pulled out of the tv business, their bd players are no longer true genuine Pioneer bd players. People didn't want to or didn't have the money to spend to upgrade.

DVD's were still popular and people's dvd collection were becoming pretty big and just spent so much money replacing their VHS collection and weren't ready or weren't wanting to start a new collection of discs on a new format that they thought wasn't a big enough step up in improvement in PQ. Don't get me wrong, dvd and bluray is a difference in PQ but not by a mile. A lot of novices can't see a huge difference between a dvd and bluray on their 40inch flatscreen that isn't even 1080p. So many people still have 720p and 1080i tv's.

Plus, there's only so many young people in this country who are passionate about electrionics and can afford to upgrade. Lots of seniors in thie country aren't excited or passionate about this new technology and will stick with their 10 year old tv and 10 year old dvd player. Plus lots of young people are living in dorm rooms, in apartments and don't have the money to spend on new electronics. I bet the vast majority of members at this website are under 40 years old, most are under 30 years old I bet.

Last edited by oppopioneer; 01-05-2013 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:15 PM   #4336
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Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
Plus, there's only so many young people in this country who are passionate about electrionics and can afford to upgrade. Lots of seniors in thie country aren't excited or passionate about this new technology and will stick with their 10 year old tv and 10 year old dvd player. Plus lots of young people are living in dorm rooms, in apartments and don't have the money to spend on new electronics. I bet the vast majority of members at this website are under 40 years old, most are under 30 years old I bet.
Bingo! Most people who adopted dvd, adopted it because VHS was done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
DVD's were still popular and people's dvd collection were becoming pretty big and just spent so much money replacing their VHS collection and weren't ready or weren't wanting to start a new collection of discs on a new format that they thought wasn't a big enough step up in improvement in PQ. Don't get me wrong, dvd and bluray is a difference in PQ but not by a mile. A lot of novices can't see a huge difference between a dvd and bluray on their 40inch flatscreen that isn't even 1080p. So many people still have 720p and 1080i tv's.
Well said, and this is exactly why I will not upgrade certain DVDs to blu ray.

And for the DVD renting person, digital rentals is so much easier than going to rent a DVD.

The blu ray market is for a niche collector, very similar to laserdisc owners before dvds came around.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:42 PM   #4337
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Originally Posted by pagemaster View Post
The blu ray market is for a niche collector, very similar to laserdisc owners before dvds came around.
I think we'll start seeing blu-ray be more mainstream here shortly. Blu-ray is doing very well and people said the same thing about DVD being only for niche collectors. I can't count how many times people said that DVD would never take off or that they didn't see a need to buy into it yet both have since been proven wrong.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:01 PM   #4338
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Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post

And the point that was made in my last post that when tech is clearly better (i.e. everyone agrees) then it eventually replaces the old (no more CRT TVs, no more VHS, no more 78 rpm records no more audio tapes) when it is just new but not accepted by everyone as better then it never does (33 rpm records are still around because some people think they sound better and still chose to buy and listen to them even though CDs came out 30 years ago, CDs are still the lions share of music sales.....
This is it in a nutshell. For one format to dominate, everyone has to agree; I can't see there ever being a time when everyone agrees downloads are best, esp with technology moving as fast as it does.

I bought a brand new SACD today over the counter at an actual shop. I absolutely rock the dead formats, me. Some people like SACDs, ergo, some SACDs are still available.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:46 AM   #4339
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Originally Posted by rdodolak View Post
I think we'll start seeing blu-ray be more mainstream here shortly. Blu-ray is doing very well and people said the same thing about DVD being only for niche collectors. I can't count how many times people said that DVD would never take off or that they didn't see a need to buy into it yet both have since been proven wrong.
I remember those days but there are a couple of things that are a lot different from over a decade ago.

1) There are a lot more options for watching tv and film. Renting prices are worlds better than ever before and streaming/digital downloads are slowly making strides.

2) I don't think we've had a format where people went all in to purchase films they loved, liked, thought were ok, and went in totally blind. I think since this is the format after DVD, movie collecting isn't as mainstream as it was years ago.

Also, I think in addition to the format war, the console war being split on which movie format would be supported didn't help HD movie adoption. This last generation the Xbox 360 and PS3 seemed to both have a good level of support.My first non-PC DVD player was a PS2. The PS2's only competition back then was the Dreamcast and later the Xbox. Both the PS2 and Xbox supported DVD playback.
Come to think of it, having native O/S support of Blu-ray would have been a help as well since a lot of people seem to catch up on movies and tv shows on the go. Blu-ray playback in PC's is still a bit buggy and a premium expense where is DVD playback can be obtained easily.
As a movie lover, I enjoy watching my favorite films and older ones that I like but I also enjoy discovering new films from around the world. Since I only want to spend so much on this hobby, I have to choose which titles I want to upgrade, buy for the first time, etc. This didn't happen for me with DVD as my VHS collection was in the single digits.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:48 PM   #4340
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Originally Posted by biznus97 View Post
I remember those days but there are a couple of things that are a lot different from over a decade ago.

1) There are a lot more options for watching tv and film. Renting prices are worlds better than ever before and streaming/digital downloads are slowly making strides.
not realy, there have always been many options during DVD there was VHS (production stopped in 2006), LD, DVHS, VCD and BD/HD-DVD (started in 2006) just to name a few there was never a time when DVD had 100% of the market nor was there a time when it was the only choice. This idea that a split market is something new is just a story invented by people that just bought a DVD one day and then the next all they were buying was DVD and have forgotten that it was never that neat


Quote:
2) I don't think we've had a format where people went all in to purchase films they loved, liked, thought were ok, and went in totally blind. I think since this is the format after DVD, movie collecting isn't as mainstream as it was years ago.

I am not sure of your point, you say there was never a format where people went all in, and that is true, there have always been renters and there have always been buyers, I don't know why you see it different now. I was a buyer when DVD was king and I am a buyer today, my three sisters were renters when DVVD was king and they are renters today with renting most of the films they watch an d buying just a few.

Quote:
As a movie lover, I enjoy watching my favorite films and older ones that I like but I also enjoy discovering new films from around the world. Since I only want to spend so much on this hobby, I have to choose which titles I want to upgrade, buy for the first time, etc. This didn't happen for me with DVD as my VHS collection was in the single digits.
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