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Old 12-19-2012, 05:41 PM   #441
repete66211 repete66211 is offline
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Speaker companies make their center channels horizontal because many/most people have their TV on furniture that can't house tower speakers or those tower speakers would block the view of the TV. If your layout can accommodate a tower center channel then by all means do it, but I think it's a bit dramatic to arrange your entire TV room around it or to propose that the difference between vertical and horizontal center channels is night and day. Theoretically the argument is there but practically I don't think you're suffering to keep the center horizontal.
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Last edited by repete66211; 12-19-2012 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:14 PM   #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post
Theoretically the argument is there but practically I don't think you're suffering to keep the center horizontal.
It's not just a theory. It's been measured and tested to be true. There was a really good study on it. They found that a cheap 2-way bookshelf was better than a $300 center channel speaker.

A good coaxial speaker would be good for a horizontal CC.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:17 PM   #443
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post
It's not just a theory. It's been measured and tested to be true. There was a really good study on it. They found that a cheap 2-way bookshelf was better than a $300 center channel speaker.

A good coaxial speaker would be good for a horizontal CC.
A la, Kef, Tannoy, or Bag End? I saw that study too over at audioholics, but it's been known longer than that.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:12 PM   #444
repete66211 repete66211 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post
It's not just a theory. It's been measured and tested to be true. There was a really good study on it. They found that a cheap 2-way bookshelf was better than a $300 center channel speaker.

A good coaxial speaker would be good for a horizontal CC.
Oh, it's a sound theory. The effect is real. I'm not commenting on that. My argument is that in the real world--your head isn't a microphone on a tripod--the effect isn't so dramatic as to justify designing your room around a vertical center channel. And let's not forget that shifting a horizontal-oriented MTM speaker vertically doesn't eliminate the effect, it just shifts it in a different direction. (I'm sure this is covered on the first page.) Of course this won't be a as much of a problem when the ears of all listeners are on roughly the same horizontal plane but if they were all sitting on a ladder....well that might be a problem.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:12 PM   #445
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3 year old thread and most all centers are still mtm. i'm look for the mtm with a slight curve and can't find hardly any.
anyone know of any budget friendly centers in the curved style?
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:41 PM   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx_6r View Post
3 year old thread and most all centers are still mtm. i'm look for the mtm with a slight curve and can't find hardly any.
anyone know of any budget friendly centers in the curved style?
That's due to aesthetics (MTM centers). I know of no budget friendly curved centers
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:31 AM   #447
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My PC600's are hexagonal in shape which also prevents lobing.

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Old 12-28-2012, 03:36 AM   #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpatt View Post
My PC600's are hexagonal in shape which also prevents lobing.

Oh yeah, but are they budget friendly? Snell offered a curved center at one time also but it was costly.
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Old 12-28-2012, 04:34 AM   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post
Oh yeah, but are they budget friendly? Snell offered a curved center at one time also but it was costly.
At 1700$ retail not excatly cheap
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:43 AM   #450
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This curved baffle center channel speaker from Speaker Hardware is an excellent choice.





Martin Logan makes excellent curved center channel speakers, but they are very expensive.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:05 AM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post
Oh yeah, but are they budget friendly? Snell offered a curved center at one time also but it was costly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl87 View Post
At 1700$ retail not excatly cheap
True, but the point I was getting at was not to limit the search to "curved" baffle.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:26 AM   #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpatt View Post
My PC600's are hexagonal in shape which also prevents lobing.

The shape of the baffle does not appreciably affect lobing because the woofers are still horizontally aligned and reproduce the same frequencies. They act as two point sources and will inescapably have wave interference. It may not be that audible since they're crossed over to a mid, perhaps in the 300Hz area, but how they could have prevented lobing is to beef up that mid and lose the woofers. The vertical alignment of the mid and tweeter is where your money is going to reduce lobing out of the critical zone. If they can get the mid to respond to perhaps 60-70Hz, then the majority of its <80Hz burden would then be handed over to the sub.

Which then brings the fact that if the mid and tweeter could handle things on their own, then why not match their bookshelf profile to the L/R and then have identical timbre across the front?

That Speaker Hardware may be an excellent sounding soundbar, but it can't have flat horizontal response with all those horizontally aligned identical drivers up in the critical midrange and treble zone. If it did, then you'd see some L/R configurations like that. It would sound much better rotated by 90 degrees and then purchase three across the front as vertical line arrays, although you'd still have wave interference across the crossover band.

Cheers,
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:39 PM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpatt View Post
True, but the point I was getting at was not to limit the search to "curved" baffle.
Oh, ok
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:01 AM   #454
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I have listed the different options used by manufacturers to deal with MTM center channel speaker at the end of post #1. Curved center speakers is only one of the options and is used primarily by Martin Logan. Other manufacturers use other options that are simpler to build.

By far, the cheapest option is to use a two-way bookshelf speaker from the same line or place an MTM speaker vertically.

The best option is to use three identical vertical front speakers that are placed at the same height. Unfortunately, that is not practical for most people as the center speaker blocks the monitor.






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Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
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Last edited by Big Daddy; 12-29-2012 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:48 AM   #455
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I want to thank you guys for all the responses - great information. Big Daddy, a special thanks to you for taking the time to document a very difficult concept.

I now realize I have a lot more reading to do before I buy anything. I am in the process of upgrading my old system of 10 plus years. I have been using Mackie 824s for fronts and 624s for CC and rears driving them with an Anthem AVM-2. My sub is a Vandersteen V2W. This setup worked great in my smaller room; however, I've moved into a larger home and the system no longer sounds good for music - even though 5.1 movies still sound great. I thought I could do some rearranging and keep the Mackies as fronts and center (all sit on bridge and shelves of Salamander cabinet) but the room just swallows the sound even though I'm only 10 feet from speakers in a 20' x 16 room. I realize that Mackies are near field monitors but have been told they should work at a distance of 8 to 9 feet.

I just wonder if I need to trash the entire system (keep sub) and get separates with floor towers that are not self powered. I would mate these with a decent preamp and amplifier, Emotive, Marantz, etc., that I could afford. Unfortunately, I would lose the fronts and CC being all vertical and from the same brand.

Sorry for such a long response, but again thanks. This is a great forum!

The Mackies are 2 way studio monitors with 2 separate power supplies and amps in each enclosure with active crossovers.
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:12 PM   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
When are you going to invite us over to audition your seamless front stage?
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
I second that.

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Your welcome anytime....bring a case of PBR and call me in advance and ill BBQ up some BabyBack ribs
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:38 PM   #457
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How about Paradigm's CC-690 its a very large center..


Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post
Very!!!! When I left horizontal center channels - I never looked back. Now my front array must be three of the same speakers. I wan't nothing less (unless it's that 200 pound B&W with some 802D's, then I would consider a horizontal - but it's not really horizontal - look at the design)
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:38 AM   #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhayman View Post
How about Paradigm's CC-690 its a very large center..
The Paradigm CC-690 is a great center speaker. However, you are emphasizing the wrong thing. The performance of an horizontal center speaker does not depend on the size of the speaker. It is all about the arrangement of the drivers and the crossover to make the horizontal center speaker perform as well as a vertical center speaker.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:46 AM   #459
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Default How about 3 near/mid field monitors?

Would 3 Emotiva stealth 8's perform better than say Studio 100s for L&R with a CC-690 for a center driven by an Emotiva XPA-3. Thanks.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:57 AM   #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saril View Post
Would 3 Emotiva stealth 8's perform better than say Studio 100s for L&R with a CC-690 for a center driven by an Emotiva XPA-3. Thanks.
Tests at Audioholics have shown that a bookshelf speaker can perform better than a horizontal center speaker.

Ideally, three vertically placed identical front speakers is the best option.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
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