Panasonic's 2013 Viera Plasma HDTV line-up (CES 2013)

[v_squared123]

These TVs look AWESOME! Very excited to hear more about the ZT series. I wonder if it would surpass the Kuro....since this could be one of the last iterations of plasmas since oleds are around the corner maybe panasonic is finally using someof the 2nd gen Kuro technology!

[Blu Balls]

I'm waiting to hear all the details but, I'm considering the ZT60 or the ST60 depending on price to performance ratio. I have been looking to upgrade but, I feel now is the time. By the time these models are dated, the price of OLED/UHDTV will be somewhat affordable.... I hope.

[ImportFanatic]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Here you go - http://panasonic.com/business/plasma...sma-series.asp

I'd wait a little as the 400 models should be announced later this year. The 300VX I believe came out before the 50-series, so it's in line with the 30-series and there were no updates in 2012.

How do these professional displays handle fast paced content like video games? Are there input lag problems since they weren't developed with video games in mind?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by 5150z

In real world scenarios, one out of 1,000 people would be able to see a difference between the VT50 and VT60. The VT50 measures .002 MLL. In a controlled lighting environment, most people will not be able to see a difference between the VT50/60 vs. the ZT60! In a completely dark room, probably so.
Right now, I'm inclined to purchase a VT50 vs. the VT60 simply due to all the apps, sharing stuff, touch pen, personalized screen, & pop-up camera crap Panny has put on the VT60. Not to mention they put speaker panels on either side of the left and right bezel. UGH. Compared the the VT50, it doesn't do it for me. I realize that's where the current market is (gadgetry) and Panny needs to make money for their shareholders, but I hate it.

I'm guessing you were at CES? That's disappointing to hear that the difference in picture quality is slim to none. Did they actually have a VT50 up for comparison purposes? I think the difference between the VT30 and VT50 is pretty huge.

[ImStylinOnYaBro]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I'm guessing you were at CES? That's disappointing to hear that the difference in picture quality is slim to none. Did they actually have a VT50 up for comparison purposes? I think the difference between the VT30 and VT50 is pretty huge.

i wonder if maybe there isn't a big difference because of the rumored hault in r&d? but you'd think they made a good progression like samsung throughout hte 2012 year in the technology

[5150z]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I'm guessing you were at CES? That's disappointing to hear that the difference in picture quality is slim to none. Did they actually have a VT50 up for comparison purposes? I think the difference between the VT30 and VT50 is pretty huge.

Actually, no, was not at CES. My feelings are based on what I've learned from people I trust. Will numbers on paper show the VT60 better than the VT50? Probably. But in real world viewing (especially in a light-controlled environment), I don't believe most could tell a difference. Panny, IMO, put most of their eggs in the ZT basket, and that's where you'll see the noticeable difference between the ZT series and both the VT 50 and 60, both on paper and real world viewing.

[Kirk Out]

Originally Posted by 5150z

actually, no, was not at ces. My feelings are based on what i've learned from people i trust. Will numbers on paper show the vt60 better than the vt50? Probably. But in real world viewing (especially in a light-controlled environment), i don't believe most could tell a difference. Panny, imo, put most of their eggs in the zt basket, and that's where you'll see the noticeable difference between the zt series and both the vt 50 and 60, both on paper and real world viewing.

+1

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by ImStylinOnYaBro

i wonder if maybe there isn't a big difference because of the rumored hault in r&d? but you'd think they made a good progression like samsung throughout hte 2012 year in the technology

I think this just might be their ultimate plasma ever (ZT) and where the evolution stops. Maybe in the next 2-3 years (if they still make them, which I believe they have said) the tech might start to evolve down the chain, nothing more IMO

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by 5150z

Actually, no, was not at CES. My feelings are based on what I've learned from people I trust. Will numbers on paper show the VT60 better than the VT50? Probably. But in real world viewing (especially in a light-controlled environment), I don't believe most could tell a difference. Panny, IMO, put most of their eggs in the ZT basket, and that's where you'll see the noticeable difference between the ZT series and both the VT 50 and 60, both on paper and real world viewing.

I would think if anything a light-controlled environment (ie - one where you can make the room dark as possible) would be the environment you'd most be able to tell an improvement in overall PQ no? That's where an extremely small difference in black level rears its head most.

According to the Panasonic insider over at HDJ the improvements of the VT60 in person over the VT50 are "undeniable". DeWayne also stated "Gamma and grayscale tracking can be improved with higher APLs. Low end noise can be improved. Dither, color graduations and video processing can also be improved." By April we'll know if they did.

Hopefully the new red phosphor will allow for more accurate colour calibrations, because it seems that's where Samsung has whipped Panny's butt the last couple years.

I wonder if an OLED will make an appearance at the shootout this year?

[ImStylinOnYaBro]

do all new 60 models have the red phosphor or just the zt? i watched a video and a guy said he demo'd the zt60 in a completely dark room w/ zero light leaking in and he said w/ a matt black full screen image up, he couldn't tell where the tv or wall bgan.

[5150z]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I would think if anything a light-controlled environment (ie - one where you can make the room dark as possible) would be the environment you'd most be able to tell an improvement in overall PQ no? That's where an extremely small difference in black level rears its head most.
***Very valid points. By controlled lighting, I refer to bias (or back) lighting. I'd never advise viewing in a completely dark room. Bias lighting helps perceived black levels, contrast and color. And, it helps with eye fatigue as well. Some people 'may' be able to tell the difference between a .002 MLL vs a .0015 MLL, but most won't in a controlled lighting (my description) environment.

According to the Panasonic insider over at HDJ the improvements of the VT60 in person over the VT50 are "undeniable". DeWayne also stated "Gamma and grayscale tracking can be improved with higher APLs. Low end noise can be improved. Dither, color graduations and video processing can also be improved." By April we'll know if they did.
***I won't argue that all of the above is probably true, the question many of us have is: Is the price difference between the 60 series vs. the 50 series (close-out prices) worth these arguably small improvements? Personally, I don't think it is. It will be good to read about the 60 vs. 50 series comparisons in a few months.

Hopefully the new red phosphor will allow for more accurate colour calibrations, because it seems that's where Samsung has whipped Panny's butt the last couple years.
***Indeed, and both the ZT and VT have this for 2013.

I wonder if an OLED will make an appearance at the shootout this year?
***OLED vs the ZT60..............Yummie.

[Steelmaker]

I could be wrong but I have a feeling that the difference in PQ between the 50 and 60 models will be very minimal. I just don't see how THAT much improvement could have been made in one short year over what Panny currently is producing. I'm sure black levels will be measurably better but I doubt it will be anything noticable to the naked eye. The 50 series already boasts extremely good color accuracy and detail. I mean just how much further can it go within the limitations of 1080p? I'm still skeptical of just how much better OLED will really be over the top of the line plasmas (not counting 4K panels).

[Kirk Out]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I could be wrong but I have a feeling that the difference in PQ between the 50 and 60 models will be very minimal. I just don't see how THAT much improvement could have been made in one short year over what Panny currently is producing. I'm sure black levels will be measurably better but I doubt it will be anything noticable to the naked eye. The 50 series already boasts extremely good color accuracy and detail. I mean just how much further can it go within the limitations of 1080p? I'm still skeptical of just how much better OLED will really be over the top of the line plasmas (not counting 4K panels).

Nope panasonic seems to have made another leap with their plasmas. Between the now top of the line ZT series and last year much praised VT. Black levels more noticeable the new Red phosphor for both models , the new panel on the ZT and brightness is getting much praise . As for the other models im not quite sure the difference can be seen my guess very doubtful .

[lghaze42]

Originally Posted by 5150z

Actually, no, was not at CES. My feelings are based on what I've learned from people I trust. Will numbers on paper show the VT60 better than the VT50? Probably. But in real world viewing (especially in a light-controlled environment), I don't believe most could tell a difference. Panny, IMO, put most of their eggs in the ZT basket, and that's where you'll see the noticeable difference between the ZT series and both the VT 50 and 60, both on paper and real world viewing.

Avforums has a video on youtube saying that Panasonic had a darkened room with last years VT50 beside the the new ZT60.They said you could easily see the the ZT60 has darker blacks than the VT50.

[dobyblue]

I hope its true, but I also know it's easy for a manufacturer to make their previous year's panel look worse than it actually is.

Hopefully when they're calibrated by independent ISF guys the difference will still be noticeable. There's clearly room for improvement, one only need compare a KRP-500M beside a VT50 to know that inky blacks are still a little ways off.

As for OLED, guys...this will be the one that makes you go "Kuro who?", "plasma what?"

I'll enjoy plasma technology for another 5 or 6 years I imagine until the price comes down, but I have no doubt when it does we're all going to be gaga over OLED.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

As for OLED, guys...this will be the one that makes you go "Kuro who?", "plasma what?"

I'll enjoy plasma technology for another 5 or 6 years I imagine until the price comes down, but I have no doubt when it does we're all going to be gaga over OLED.

I have great concern over OLED's shelf life. Not only for how long an OLED set would last, but also gradual PQ degradation. I know OLED is TV tech's new kid on the block but I'm not so sure if I'm ready to crown it king superior just yet based on the technology alone. Plus who's to say that plasma PQ can't eventually match OLED's? I mean at the end of the day, if all the measurables meet what is considered industry standard, what difference does it make whether the tech behind it is plasma, LED, OLED, etc? Zero black is zero black, accurate color is accurate color, and so on and so forth. Plasma already has the advantage over other technologies in terms of video processing, off angle viewing, etc. If Panasonic, Samsung, etc can offer a much cheaper plasma that looks at least nearly as good as OLED and put it out for cheaper, why would anyone choose OLED?

[ImStylinOnYaBro]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I hope its true, but I also know it's easy for a manufacturer to make their previous year's panel look worse than it actually is.

Hopefully when they're calibrated by independent ISF guys the difference will still be noticeable. There's clearly room for improvement, one only need compare a KRP-500M beside a VT50 to know that inky blacks are still a little ways off.

As for OLED, guys...this will be the one that makes you go "Kuro who?", "plasma what?"

I'll enjoy plasma technology for another 5 or 6 years I imagine until the price comes down, but I have no doubt when it does we're all going to be gaga over OLED.

idk what manufacturer, but sources at CES said one manufacturer told them that only 30% of their OLED's produced turn out to be sellable and the rest have flaws. compiled with new technology and that cost for failed products, can't blame them for a high price. although, i think 12 grand is ridiculous for a 55" oled. especially when research shows those larger sizes, including 55, are becoming the norm for consumers.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I have great concern over OLED's shelf life. Not only for how long an OLED set would last, but also gradual PQ degradation. I know OLED is TV tech's new kid on the block but I'm not so sure if I'm ready to crown it king superior just yet based on the technology alone. Plus who's to say that plasma PQ can't eventually match OLED's? I mean at the end of the day, if all the measurables meet what is considered industry standard, what difference does it make whether the tech behind it is plasma, LED, OLED, etc? Zero black is zero black, accurate color is accurate color, and so on and so forth. Plasma already has the advantage over other technologies in terms of video processing, off angle viewing, etc. If Panasonic, Samsung, etc can offer a much cheaper plasma that looks at least nearly as good as OLED and put it out for cheaper, why would anyone choose OLED?

Because I don't believe it's their intention to keep manufacturing plasma panels once they have conquered cost of the OLED panels. You can only choose what is available. Just about every manufacturer this year announced no new CCFL-lit LCD sets, they've all gone LED. I think we're going to see both LCD panels and plasma panels disappear in the next 10 years altogether for large screen flat panels.

If the cost of making a panel that performs as well as OLED puts it in the same ball park as OLED, presuming that over the next 5~6 years pricing on OLED will drop drastically, then why will they not want to streamline manufacturing?

If I can get the same or better performance as my plasma from a set with virtually no heat and minimal power consumption at the same price then I'm off to the races.

The reliability of the sets particularly in manufacturing if it is an issue will definitely be something they work on, but remember when 50GB blu-ray discs were a figment of people's imagination, "science fiction" I think was the term? And how small independent studios would never release on Blu because of the costs?

[dobyblue]

This is mostly speculation though, I have no doubt that for most people's wallets where PQ is a primary concern that plasma will still be king for several more years.

[Kirk Out]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

This is mostly speculation though, I have no doubt that for most people's wallets where PQ is a primary concern that plasma will still be king for several more years.

Agreed. Im getting ready to place my preorder for a 60in ZT , I just got done pre ordering a panasonic bdt330