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Old 01-19-2013, 04:51 PM   #21
drbgood drbgood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taygan315 View Post
I'm with keb on this. My 2D-3D is okay but pales greatly next to a 3D blu. Just no comparison.

Many people believe an up converted DVD looks almost as good as a blu-ray. I agree. But....the same cannot be said about 2D-3D conversion vs 3D blu-rays. Not even close. This is all just my opinion.....to each his own.
Agree 100%, 2D->3D is terrible! Well done 3D movies are awesome on a 3D TV like my LG 6500.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:50 PM   #22
Karma16 Karma16 is offline
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HI All,
I don't know what an "upconverted" disk is. In the general sense, up conversion refers to a frequency translation from one to another. But in the world of DVD's and BD's I don't know how this applies. Can you explain, please?

And BTW, most of you seem to think I am trying to say that a simulated presentation is as good as a real 3D. I never said that and I didn't mean that. I commented that the simulation was NOT as good. The question I was asking was whether you found the simulation useful for a 2D disk. Why do you insist on not reading thoroughly?

Sparky
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:08 PM   #23
UFAlien UFAlien is offline
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I did read thoroughly. My answer was no, it's not useful for a 2D disc because the 3D conversion is so bad as to be worse than leaving it 2D, at least in my opinion.

"Upconversion" here is usually meant as a standard definition source (say, your DVD collection) scaled to a higher resolution for display on an HDTV. Exact methods vary from simply scaling it up with no effects to applying special algorithms or filters to try and make it appear artificially "sharper" or "more hi-def". The problem with this, of course, being that you can't magically create image information that isn't there, so any upscaler-added pixels are really just the software's best guess as to what should be there.

Under certain circumstances (bad Blu-ray and good DVD, especially if they're sourced from the same master) an upscaled DVD can come close to the Blu-ray in video quality... and there are some very rare cases where a Blu-ray has been handled SO badly (usually taken from an SD source and filtered or compressed to death) that the upscaled DVD is actually better. This is, however, very, very rare and in my experience most Blu-rays are noticeably better than their upscaled DVD counterparts, usually very much so.

Taygan was drawing a comparison between that and 2D-3D auto conversion, since they're both software-based guesswork that attempts to enhance content not originally encoded in whichever format it's trying to simulate (HD or 3D). He stated his belief that upconversion is better than 2D-3D auto conversion, as while some upconverted SD content can look almost as good as Blu-ray, he believes 2D-3D conversion never even comes close to a real 3D Blu and thus is not something he finds useful. I have to agree with him.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:49 PM   #24
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is online now
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I finally got around to experimenting with this feature last weekend. Strangely, it didn't seem to work with DVDs, only Blu-Rays. I first tried it out on the Gondor battle in Return of the King on DVD, and didn't notice anything. Then I popped in Disney's sailing documentary, "Morning Light" on Blu, and blammo - the 3D conversion kicked in and it looked like the movie as composed for a view-master.

I know the tech isn't there yet, but I have to admit a certain entertainment factor in the novelty of seeing classic favorites suddenly presented in "slices" of depth. I know I probably shouldn't, but it was fun. I checked out Empire of the Sun, Fantasia, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, the BBC Pride and Prejudice, and Bambi. A little trippy to see these in faux-3D, and nowhere close to a real 3D presentation, but as an entertaining novelty, it was a hoot.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:27 PM   #25
Karma16 Karma16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Rister View Post
I finally got around to experimenting with this feature last weekend. Strangely, it didn't seem to work with DVDs, only Blu-Rays. I first tried it out on the Gondor battle in Return of the King on DVD, and didn't notice anything. Then I popped in Disney's sailing documentary, "Morning Light" on Blu, and blammo - the 3D conversion kicked in and it looked like the movie as composed for a view-master.

I know the tech isn't there yet, but I have to admit a certain entertainment factor in the novelty of seeing classic favorites suddenly presented in "slices" of depth. I know I probably shouldn't, but it was fun. I checked out Empire of the Sun, Fantasia, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, the BBC Pride and Prejudice, and Bambi. A little trippy to see these in faux-3D, and nowhere close to a real 3D presentation, but as an entertaining novelty, it was a hoot.
HI Ernest,
On my Panasonic 55 the simulation works for all 2D sources including DVD, Blu-Ray, and off the air HD TV. What TV and Model do you have? Maybe there is something wrong. It really should work for all sources.

Also, in the simulation mode, my Panasonic has three settings for depth. I'm still experimenting with these. So far, the medium depth setting seems best but it probably varies with the program and source.

Someone wrote below that the simulation mode uses algorithms to make a "best guess" as to how the moment to moment depth should appear. This is true. However, there is no reason to assume that all algorithms are created equal and that they all use the same picture variables. These are all software variables subject to the skill of the programer and the complexity of the signal processing chips. Anyone who has programmed professionally, such as myself, knows the programmer and the hardware are major variables.

Also, we should understand what an algorithm is. It is a set of mathematical software rules that define the overall software processing of the problem. They are not fixed at all. They are completely dependent on the the engineering analysis applied to the issue. Again, these can be highly variable from one TV manufacturer to another. And being highly variable, the results can also be highly variable.

I see no reason to believe that all TV's are equally good performing simulation. Indeed, it seems far more likely that all TV's are different, some better than others. Unfortunately, I have read almost nothing about this technology either in manufacturers TV descriptions or in the test reviews. It seems the simulation feature is being ignored and probably untried. This is one of the reasons I started this thread.

So far the dialog has been very interesting.

Sparky

Last edited by Karma16; 01-25-2013 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:39 PM   #26
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karma16 View Post
HI Ernest,
On my Panasonic 55 the simulation works for all 2D sources including DVD, Blu-Ray, and off the air HD TV. What TV and Model do you have? Maybe there is something wrong. It really should work for all sources.
It's my brother-in-law's TV...I have a 3D blu-ray player, and several 3D movies. He has a 3DTV, but no content, and a 2D only blu player. I go house sit and take care of his pets from time to time, so I haul my player and my movies over to check out all these 3D movies I have. Having sort of exhausted these, I decided to check out the TV's 2D-3D conversion mode, and was giddy at some of the results, while recognizing they're nowhere near the quality of an actual 3D product.

Quote:
Also, in the simulation mode, my Panasonic has three settings for depth. I'm still experimenting with these. So far, the medium depth setting seems best but it probably varies with the program and source.
I didn't see that exactly - there were other 3D modes, but they seemed to be bizarre stretch and squash modes. Maybe I didn't know what I was looking at, I just played the films on regular 2D-3D mode. Plus, it isn't my TV, and I'd never monkey with the settings on someone else's TV. Never rub another man's rhubarb.

Quote:
Someone wrote below that the simulation mode uses algorithms to make a "best guess" as to how the moment to moment depth should appear. This is true. However, there is no reason to assume that all algorithms are created equal and that they all use the same picture variables. These are all software variables subject to the skill of the programer and the complexity of the signal processing chips. Anyone who has programmed professionally, such as myself, knows the programmer and the hardware are major variables.

Also, we should understand what an algorithm is. It a set of mathematical software rules that define the overall software processing of the problem. They are not fixed at all. They are completely dependent on the the engineering analysis applied to the issue. Again, these can be highly variable from one TV manufacturer to another. And being highly variable, the results can also be highly variable.

I see no reason to believe that all TV's are equally good performing simulation. Indeed, it seems far more likely that all TV's are different, some better than others. Unfortunately, I have read almost nothing about this technology either in manufacturers TV descriptions or in the test reviews. It seems the simulation feature is being ignored and probably untried. This is one of the reasons I started this thread.

So far the dialog has been very interesting.

Sparky
I hear you. I thought it was fun, and again, I recognize it isn't the same quality as an actual conversion. If anything, it simply whetted my appetite for Fantasia in 3D, because even in this form, it was a whole lot of fun.

For the record, my 3D Blu's are:

John Carter
The Adventures of Tintin
Tron Legacy
Titanic
Toy Story, Toy Story 2, Toy Story 3
The Lion King
Beauty and the Beast
Brave
Finding Nemo
Cars 2
The Avengers

I know the conversion is wonky and I understand I probably shouldn't have fun watching the Battle of Hoth from Empire Strikes Back or the Imaginary Air Battle from Empire of the Sun or the Death Star Battle from Star Wars in TV-converted 3D...but I did.

Last edited by Ernest Rister; 01-24-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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