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Old 01-31-2013, 07:22 PM   #121
tele1962 tele1962 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
You must be terribly bored, if you have to revise your comments on a continuous basis.
Probably i am.......but i was waiting for your justification for your post. Never mind you have my complete attention now, so fire away.

Still nothing?????

Last edited by tele1962; 01-31-2013 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:44 PM   #122
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Yes there are differences in players. The PS3 has lots of great features and is pretty fast. I have 3 players and have had 2 different PS3s.and they all work great. That being said, my Panny does have PQ that is somewhat better than the PS3.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:53 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman781 View Post
Yes there are differences in players. The PS3 has lots of great features and is pretty fast. I have 3 players and have had 2 different PS3s.and they all work great. That being said, my Panny does have PQ that is somewhat better than the PS3.
Oh boy.

This post summs it up..........never mind be happy guys..........the truth is out there.

Last edited by tele1962; 01-31-2013 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:02 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
To you my friend i have nothing else to say as you are continuing to gode and antagonise. You love your OPPO..........that's great.

Again in case you missed it:
" Again, this isn't personal, so please don't be offended - I hope this is just civilised debate between AV fans. But from a scientific perspective, all I see here is purchase validation. There are many reasons why you could call the PS3 a dog as a BD player. It's noisy, physically ugly... but picture quality isn't one of them. There are good reasons to spend cash on an expensive BD player - build quality, quiet disc transport, gamma correction features, analog surround outputs - but you're kidding yourself if you think you're getting better picture quality (via 1080p HDMI) than someone with a PS3. "
I will repeat, your above quote is meaningless in regards to what I have been saying. That's where you have gone wrong during our whole discussion, you think it's about the Oppo when it's not. The Oppo was used by me merely as an example, nothing more, which ultimately had nothing to do with my main point. My point wasn't about the ps3 or one specific player. The fact that you often latch straight on to Oppo makes you appear as if you have some kind of dislike towards Oppo. Just look at how much you are badgering John AV (a person who has a very close relationship with Oppo) in your last couple of posts, it just supports this even further. To be honest you are being a bit of an arse in the way you are treating everyone in this thread IMO, so I'm going to treat you the same. You seem to be sitting there arrogantly thinking that you own the thread, and are oblivious to the fact the that I have actually beaten you once again, and by continuing to insist that I am wrong you are just making matters worse for yourself. You are arguing something that I'm not disputing, and really does not have a lot to do with my point.

What's amusing, is that you don't even appear to really understand what my point actually was, when it was really quite clear. I wasn't arguing that if you have 2 players (same price, different price, it doesn't matter) that are working correctly, that there will be a difference, and this is what you have failed to realise just like last time. Things just seem to go over your head. My argument is based on the thorough scientific results from The Secrets of Blu-ray Benchmark that provided proof that there can be differences between players, where you and David have both admitted that if a player is not working to the correct specs, like how the The secrets of Blu-ray Benchmark discovered, that this means that they are faulty models by your definition. Therefore, they are not equal and won't perform the same as other players that don't have these issues, regardless of how minimal that may be. With that being said, you refuse to answer how you can be sure that all blu-ray players perform the same when you can't possibly know which models have these faults and which ones don't, and the only way you can know this is to put each individual player that exists, through the same scientific testing methods as the The Secrets of Blu-ray Benchmark did with the 4 players. You cannot claim that those were isolated instances, or deny the fact that if 3 out of 4 players that were tested showed these inaccuracies, that there isn't a high probability that many others players could have these sorts of variations. Why you have a problem admitting this I don't know, especially after you have freely admitted it before? I get the impression that you think that the percentage of players with these issues would be so small that's it's not even worth mentioning, which is where I disagree, based on The Secrets of Blu-rays Benchmarks findings. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree, since you can't disprove the facts behind HD benchmarks results. However the fact is that I haven't argued what you have claimed, so there is really no reason why we shouldn't be able to agree, as we are essentially arguing different things which really are irrelevant to one another, and hold their own merits factually. Though I suspect that you have too much pride to admit that , not that I need you to, as it's written in black and white in the older thread on this topic, unless you go and delete the post that is, which I wouldn't put that past you.

And again, the same can be said about you, as all I am seeing from you is purchasing validation in the opposite direction, regarding your ps3 and cheap players such as your megavox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
So you are saying there is?
I have shown you facts regarding this from one of the worlds leading experts.......please tell me your thoughts on this?
And what do you think the people who did the tests I'm referring to are, for some unknown reason you think their expertise are less than David's, and facts from them are invalid, why is this?

Edit: Further more, below I refer you to the fact that the last time we had this discussion, at the end of it when you finally realised and acknowledged that what I was saying had merit, you requested for the Mod's to remove all post relating to our disagreement, because you knew that you misunderstood and were wrong, which made you look a bit silly. What I have said this time is no different to last time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
Advice taken and apologies if things got heated.

If Cevolution is willing will you please remove all our posts as it was stupid to get into silly arguments over what is our hobby.

And to Cevolution sorry mate, your argument was valid and sound.
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Last edited by Cevolution; 02-01-2013 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:01 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
So to put this back on topic is there a difference between the PS3 and a stand alone player PQ wise no.
This kinda makes no sense. The PQ actually depends in great part on your display. So with that logic, this guy/gal makes logical sense, but using senseless logic.

See what I did there?
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:27 AM   #126
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I give up, i asked John AV to justify his statement.........he disappeared ........Mr Hayes keeps coming in with nothing to add. Your continued long winded posts to validate your purchase are annoying.

I will simplify things.

1. You will see no difference in PQ between an OPPO and a budget player as long as they are working correctly.

2. Your argument was sound and valid to point of if there is a problem with a particular player you will see a difference. ( Use S&M to spot this). If they are working correctly you will not.

3. All players have faults even OPPO's so your argument that how would you know if a player is working correctly falls to pieces.

4. It really is quite easy to test any player.

5. I have quoted an expert on many occasions who agrees, you make no comment or refuse to read his posts or statements which i agree with 110%.

6. Finaly and this is the crux of it and i am asking you my friend. Will you see a difference in PQ between say an $80 Pansaonic BDT120, PS3 or $600 OPPO Yes or NO?

Last edited by tele1962; 02-01-2013 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:13 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
I give up, i asked John AV to justify his statement.........he disappeared ........Mr Hayes keeps coming in with nothing to add. Your continued long winded posts to validate your purchase are annoying.

I will simplify things.

1. You will see no difference in PQ between an OPPO and a budget player as long as they are working correctly.
Which I haven't disputed, however because you don't know which models in the market place work correctly and which don't, you can't confidently say that there isn't any difference without showing individual comparisons on the players that have been discussed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
2. Your argument was sound and valid to point of if there is a problem with a particular player you will see a difference. ( Use S&M to spot this). If they are working correctly you will not.
This is all I was saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
3. All players have faults even OPPO's so your argument that how would you know if a player is working correctly falls to pieces.
You still don't seem to get it. The scientific tests I've been referring to, which you have been made aware of in the past and agreed with, weren't about regular faults which affect a small percentage of each brand of model and player. It was demonstrating that entire model lines are affected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
4. It really is quite easy to test any player.
Then why haven't you ever come up with the same results which hometheatrehifi.com/the secrets of blu-ray benchmarks have gotten. David himself even stated the following during our previous debate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyris View Post
the Secrets BD Player benchmark is absolutely excellent. Their findings are scientific and as indisputable as they can possibly be. The way I skim-read this thread, it almost seemed like I'd been accused of disagreeing with them. That's not the case!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
5. I have quoted an expert on many occasions who agrees, you make no comment or refuse to read his posts or statements which i agree with 110%.
What, and I haven't? The secrets of Blu-ray benchmark are also highly respected experts, which David stated that he agreed with - as per the above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
6. Finaly and this is the crux of it and i am asking you my friend. Will you see a difference in PQ between say an $80 Pansaonic BDT120, PS3 or $600 OPPO Yes or NO?
That depends on whether the blu-ray players being compared have been manufactured to the correct specs. If, yes - then the answer is no (which I've never disputed), and if they haven't then the answer is yes. However, the fact still remains that unless you individually test every player on the market for these issues, then you cannot confidently say that every player will perform the same.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:56 AM   #128
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So removing all the stuff and nonsence from the post you agree that you will see no difference between the OPPO and all much cheaper players ( provided they are all working correctly) THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING.

SO BETWEEN THE PS3 AND THE OPPO NO DIFFERENCE. Finaly thank you.

Same sort of argument i have seen over HDMI cables, i can't test them all but if they are within spec you will seen difference..............

Last edited by tele1962; 02-01-2013 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:38 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
So removing all the stuff and nonsence from the post you agree that you will see no difference between the OPPO and all much cheaper players ( provided they are all working correctly) THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING.

SO BETWEEN THE PS3 AND THE OPPO NO DIFFERENCE. Finaly thank you.
So after removing all the stuff and nonsense from your posts, you agree that the expertise and scientific finding from the Secrets of Blu-ray benchmark are valid, that not all players are the same and that there will be a difference in terms of PQ if a player isn't manufactured to specs, and that based on their results where 3 out of 4 players were found to be inaccurate, that it is impossible for you to say that there is no difference in terms of PQ between players knowing this?

As for the Oppo compared to the ps3, I would like to see further testing from The Secrets of Blu-ray Benchmark, this time including a ps3 as one of the players they test, before coming to any kind of conclusion, especially since 2 Sony models were found to be inaccurate in the previous test that Blu-ray benchmark preformed.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:55 AM   #130
tele1962 tele1962 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cevolution View Post
So after removing all the stuff and nonsense from your posts, you agree that the expertise and scientific finding from the Secrets of Blu-ray benchmark are valid, that not all players are the same and that there will be a difference in terms of PQ if a player isn't manufactured to specs, and that based on their results where 3 out of 4 players were found to be inaccurate, that it is impossible for you to say that there is no difference in terms of PQ between players knowing this?

As for the Oppo compared to the ps3, I would like to see further testing from The Secrets of Blu-ray Benchmark, this time including a ps3 as one of the players they test, before coming to any kind of conclusion, especially since 2 Sony models were found to be inaccurate in the previous test that Blu-ray benchmark preformed.
We are going round in circles with this and your moving the goal posts. The PS3 is the reference player of choice for many many professionals and reveiwers alike. Your now wanting this tested (already been done reference the pictures i posted) because you cant face the fact that cheaper players can have the same PQ as the OPPO. Now who is being rediculous?

PS
I think it was 3 out of 4 players were faulted was it not?

Last edited by tele1962; 02-01-2013 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:41 AM   #131
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I'm guessing that a MOD schedule has been assigned for constant surveillance of this thread. By now, there has to be someone making certain that this ongoing discussion doesn't take a quick 90 degree turn for the worst.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:51 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
What you need justification for saying "Most bag of hot air back and forth I've seen in a log time!" wow I see you are going on a tear in this forum. Must have had a good sleep.

If it is why don't you point us to all the reviews that use that as a reference player . . .I don't think so, but you can wish it!

Of course over in UK things might be a bit worse off then in the states, so maybe reviewers are harder up!
John your coming up with these statements, what exactly are you saying. This very forum for one uses it,AVS & HDTVTest has used it, AVForums have used it, i know many experenced ISF pros who use it, David Mackenzie has used it............do you want me to go on.

" Of course over in UK things might be a bit worse off then in the states, so maybe reviewers are harder up! " or maybe we have better reviewers.

PS
Reference post #67 on this thread.

Last edited by tele1962; 02-01-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:11 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
We are going round in circles with this and your moving the goal posts. The PS3 is the reference player of choice for many many professionals and reveiwers alike. Your now wanting this tested (already been done reference the pictures i posted) because you cant face the fact that cheaper players can have the same PQ as the OPPO. Now who is being rediculous?
Explain how I was being ridiculous? We are going around in circles because you're ignoring everything that has been said to you, and refuse to answer questions that you are asked. However, you expect everyone else to not ignore you and answer your questions, questions that you keep repeating, and that have already been answered multiple times, just like in post #128 where I answered your questions, but then you asked the same questions again in post #129, even though I had answered those question in the post before it, all because you don't like the answer you have gotten.

That's great, and I'm not disputing those findings about the ps3. I haven't moved the goal posts at all. All I said is that I would like to see what Blu-ray benchmark were to come up with if they tested the ps3, which is completely reasonable since you have stated that you haven't come up with any discrepancies between players from tests you have preformed, when The Blu-ray Benchmark have. If this is the case then obviously the methods they use are different than yours in some way, and these are methods which you can't dispute, particularly since David (the expert you keep quoting) supports just that in the following statement, which I am now referring you to for a 2nd time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyris View Post
the Secrets BD Player benchmark is absolutely excellent. Their findings are scientific and as indisputable as they can possibly be.
Face what? Again, show me where I have said that the Oppo is the only "reference" player? I think you need to take a good look at my home theatre gallery, as I own 6 blu-ray players, though I do rarely use the others over the Oppo, mainly because the other players (except for my 60gb ps3) are not used in my main setup, they are in other rooms. Obviously I own an Oppo, I have 2 ps3's, a Panasonic dmp-bdt300, a Toshiba bdx3200ky, and an HP dv6-3139tx laptop. So that just there goes against your little theory about facing facts regarding cheaper players that are not Oppo's. However the fact of the matter is, out of all those players I own, I can't be sure whether they are all performing correctly to specs or not. I haven't seen individual scientific data for each of these players I own, therefore I can't be sure. Though based on The Secrets of Blu-ray Benchmarks test, I do at least know that the Oppo 93 does perform to specs. That is not me saying that my ps3 or the other players I own don't, but it certainly is possibly that they might not be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
PS
I think it was 3 out of 4 players were faulted was it not?
They were not faulty in the way you are implying, clearly I need to refer you back to this from post # 128 of mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cevolution View Post
You still don't seem to get it. The scientific tests I've been referring to, which you have been made aware of in the past and agreed with, weren't about regular faults which affect a small percentage of each brand of model and player. It was demonstrating that entire model lines are affected.
Like I have previously mentioned, the way that you always seem to heavily focus on Oppo, just comes across as if you have some kind of personal issue with Oppo and their products.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:15 AM   #134
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No issue with OPPO but issues with some of the statements you make. Clearly i am getting no where with this, you choose to go with what you believe to be right. I will stick with no difference if the player is performing correctly.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:22 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cevolution View Post
HDTVTest is David Mackenzie, and seems to be the only expert that you mention and value, try using other sources for a change.
I can mention many more but it would be useless. Why would i want to use other sources when they all agree?

To be honest i am bored with this now and i am sure most on here are i have gave my answer no difference between the PS3 and OPPO as requested by the OP..................Signing off.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:39 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
I can mention many more but it would be useless. Why would i want to use other sources when they all agree?

To be honest i am bored with this now and i am sure most on here are i have gave my answer no difference between the PS3 and OPPO as requested by the OP..................Signing off.
The funniest thing here is that David Mackenzie has gone on record on these boards, stating that the source I have been quoting and the scientific methods they use are "indisputable", therefore he agrees with their findings, which he in fact did say. By you going against this, and stating that you can provide other sources which state otherwise, you are going against the man that you so heavily praise.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:47 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cevolution View Post
The funniest thing here is that David Mackenzie has gone on record on these boards, stating that the source I have been quoting and the scientific methods they use are "indisputable", therefore he agrees with their findings, which he in fact did say. By you going against this, and stating that you can provide other sources which state otherwise, you are going against the man that you so heavily praise.
Your determined to twist and turn my words, i have never said here that i disagree with them. I disagree with you. I for the last time am saying that if there is no problem with the player,the Blu Ray PQ will be the same......simple really, and that goes for all players and that is why we have reviews and tests. If a particular player is not performing as it should it will be noted. Apart from the test you keep referring to have you seen any?

ALL PLAYERS IF THEY ARE PERFORMING AS THEY SHOULD WILL HAVE THE SAME PQ......................EASY.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:56 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
Your determined to twist and turn my words, i have never said here that i disagree with them. I disagree with you. I for the last time am saying that if there is no problem with the player,the Blu Ray PQ will be the same......simple really, and that goes for all players and that is why we have reviews and tests. If a particular player is not performing as it should it will be noted. Apart from the test you keep referring to have you seen any?

ALL PLAYERS IF THEY ARE PERFORMING AS THEY SHOULD WILL HAVE THE SAME PQ......................EASY.
, considering my argument has been based solely on The Secrets Blu-ray Benchmark scientific findings, if you disagree with me then you are disagreeing with them.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:03 PM   #139
tele1962 tele1962 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cevolution View Post
, considering my argument has been based solely on The Secrets Blu-ray Benchmark scientific findings, if you disagree with me then you are disagreeing with them.
Twisting again. Do you agree if the player is performing as it should you will see no difference? A simple YES OR NO will suffice.

OH and before i forget or John who posted earlier:

" Both Joe Kane and the Criterion Collection use the PS3 as a reference player. It's nothing special any more, but there's nothing defective about it either. "
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:46 PM   #140
Lyris Lyris is online now
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There's a ton of jeering, misconceptions and also ignoring of what's been posted, to the extent that this is actually hard to read

If anyone wants to hear my findings on this subject, do feel free to ask me questions, but I'm not associating myself with childish finger-pointing. It's kind of weird seeing my name get dragged into this bickering. I don't understand why it has to get so emotional when we're dealing with verifiable facts.



One interesting thing I've seen is referring to the (excellent) Secrets BD Benchmark. You realize, much of this is a test of core video performance, that is, pulling what's on the disc off the disc without distorting it. To the best of my knowledge, they're not taking the extra processing features (like the Marvell Qdeo stuff that was linked to) into account because much of the functions are designed to create deviations from the source.

Whenever this subject comes up I keep bumping into statements like, "Player X has branded video processor from company Y, the PS3 doesn't, so Player X must be better". Not so. I do think that some people referring to post-processing aren't 100% sure of what the processing is, what it does, why it would be better, and when it's not even active.

Quote:
So to put this back on topic is there a difference between the PS3 and a stand alone player PQ wise no.
Which stand alone player? If it's a comparison between a PS3 and a standalone player which has, say, some undefeatable gamma distortion, then yes, there will be a difference, the PS3 will be better from a purist point of view.

But usually the PS3 is the one getting derided. That probably has a lot to do with the fact that the PS3 was a lot of people's first BD player and they'll naturally want to believe that each new one they buy is going to be an improvement on their first in terms of picture quality. Not so.

I've seen people say that it's "soft" (it's not, and that's a demonstrable fact), that it has "picture noise" (at a loss to explain this, but perhaps they mean grain and they've seen players which filter that - no thanks) etc. I've even seen people claim that the PS3 can't be as good as a dedicated hardware player because the BD player is implemented in software - which is a total misunderstanding.

Then we also have to take into account that many of the people commenting on this subject won't be interested in preserving the accuracy of the source, so, a player like the current Panasonics which by default add edge enhancement might look better than the PS3 in their eyes. I don't care about that stuff, I want an accurate representation of what's on the BD.


OK? Are we all in agreement to this extent? Please keep the replies civil...
The opinions above are my own and not those of my employers or clients.
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