A discussion on the future of plasma TV

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by genkifd

From HT Mag

Full-On/Full-Off Contrast Ratio: 1,855:1

the full on/off CR is 1,855:1 i would doubt the Ansi is 4,000:1

http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panel...tv/index3.html

There's obviously something seriously wrong with a measurement like that (if I understand it correctly). Full on/off is the same as dynamic, correct (which is a worthless number)? Dynamic CR on the V10 is listed as 2MM:1 and native (ANSI) as 40,000:1 (which I have a hard time believing). The ANSI on the Kuro was measured in the ~13,000:1 range, which is believable. 4,000:1 on the V10 sounds extremely low to me.

[genkifd]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

There's obviously something seriously wrong with a measurement like that (if I understand it correctly). Full on/off is the same as dynamic, correct (which is a worthless number)? Dynamic CR on the V10 is listed as 2MM:1 and native (ANSI) as 40,000:1 (which I have a hard time believing). The ANSI on the Kuro was measured in the ~13,000:1 range, which is believable. 4,000:1 on the V10 sounds extremely low to me.

firstly never believe what manufacturers put as CR for their tvs - always exaggerated.

actually full on/off ratio and ANSI CR are both important - one tells the maximum whites / blacks and the other gives a calculated figure on both black and whites being on screen at the same time....

most importantly believe your own eyes - look into the picture's blacks - compare the tvs black is the tvs black frame (if possible).

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by genkifd

From HT Mag

Full-On/Full-Off Contrast Ratio: 1,855:1

the full on/off CR is 1,855:1 i would doubt the Ansi is 4,000:1

http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panel...tv/index3.html

D Nice tested the G10 at 3,800:1 ANSI, so the V10 will be higher.

HT Mag also tested the G10 46" at 3,150:1
http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panel...tv/index3.html

Yet tested the 42" at 1,855:1 which is the EXACT SAME PANEL.

If that doesn't show something peculiar about their methods, I'm not sure what does?

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by genkifd

firstly never believe what manufacturers put as CR for their tvs - always exaggerated.

Yes, I understand that. But obviously there is something seriously different in the tests if one gives a value of 1,855 and the other is 2MM.

actually full on/off ratio and ANSI CR are both important - one tells the maximum whites / blacks and the other gives a calculated figure on both black and whites being on screen at the same time....

Again, I fully uunderstand the differences in the tests, though I completely disagree about dynamic being important, as it is not. Unless you plan to watch either an all-white signal or stare at your set while it is off, a max white/black means nothing. Once you add light and dark on the screen at the same time, those numbers are no longer applicable, so why even measure them?

[sarge1976]

Dumb question but what does ANSI stand for or mean? is it the black level?

[genkifd]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

Yes, I understand that. But obviously there is something seriously different in the tests if one gives a value of 1,855 and the other is 2MM.


Again, I fully uunderstand the differences in the tests, though I completely disagree about dynamic being important, as it is not. Unless you plan to watch either an all-white signal or stare at your set while it is off, a max white/black means nothing. Once you add light and dark on the screen at the same time, those numbers are no longer applicable, so why even measure them?

put it in another perspective.... say you had fL of 0.02 for blacks and 60 for whites and the Ansi could be say 4,000:1 - this tv would have bad blacks - washed out looking pictures even though it has a great ansi contrast ratio.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by genkifd

put it in another perspective.... say you had fL of 0.02 for blacks and 60 for whites and the Ansi could be say 4,000:1 - this tv would have bad blacks - washed out looking pictures even though it has a great ansi contrast ratio.

I've never seen this in real world testing. No TV with an ANSI of 4,000:1 has washed out blacks.

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

Once you add light and dark on the screen at the same time, those numbers are no longer applicable, so why even measure them?

That's what Gary Merson's been asking the CE's for ages, yet he notes they still post these meaningless measurements.

Originally Posted by sarge1976

Dumb question but what does ANSI stand for or mean? is it the black level?

American National Standards Institute.

ANSI contrast is measured with a checkerboard pattern and shows the TV's real contrast ratio under the most absolute circumstances, as it has to show black and white on the screen at the same time. This is more indicative of the set's real world performance and rarely does any set acheive much more than 5,000:1 except in the case of the Kuro's.

http://carltonbale.com/2007/01/the-t...ntrast-ratios/
http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...NSI%20Contrast
http://www.digitalhome.ca/content/view/3969/283/

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by sarge1976

Dumb question but what does ANSI stand for or mean? is it the black level?

American National Standards Institute

It's just an acronym for a standardized test; in this case, one for measuring contrast ratio. There's ANSI standards for just about any kind of testing performed in the world. Want to know the strength of your Glad Wrap? I'm sure there's and ANSI standard out there for testing it.

As for contrast ratio, you can read-up on it here:

http://www.practical-home-theater-gu...ast-ratio.html

http://www.cnet.com/8301-17914_1-9985085-89.html

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

American National Standards Institute.

ANSI contrast is measured with a checkerboard pattern and shows the TV's real contrast ratio under the most absolute circumstances, as it has to show black and white on the screen at the same time. This is more indicative of the set's real world performance and rarely does any set acheive much more than 5,000:1 except in the case of the Kuro's.

Looks like we were typing at the same time.

That's the first I've heard about ANSI's not being much more than 5,000:1 (except in the case of LCD). I guess I just assumed (yeah, I know) that since the Kuros were ~13,000:1, then other good quality plasmas would be ~8-10K range. Good to know for future reference.

[sarge1976]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I've never seen this in real world testing. No TV with an ANSI of 4,000:1 has washed out blacks.



That's what Gary Merson's been asking the CE's for ages, yet he notes they still post these meaningless measurements.



American National Standards Institute.

ANSI contrast is measured with a checkerboard pattern and shows the TV's real contrast ratio under the most absolute circumstances, as it has to show black and white on the screen at the same time. This is more indicative of the set's real world performance and rarely does any set acheive much more than 5,000:1 except in the case of the Kuro's.

http://carltonbale.com/2007/01/the-t...ntrast-ratios/
http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...NSI%20Contrast
http://www.digitalhome.ca/content/view/3969/283/

Thanks

[sarge1976]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

American National Standards Institute

It's just an acronym for a standardized test; in this case, one for measuring contrast ratio. There's ANSI standards for just about any kind of testing performed in the world. Want to know the strength of your Glad Wrap? I'm sure there's and ANSI standard out there for testing it.

As for contrast ratio, you can read-up on it here:

http://www.practical-home-theater-gu...ast-ratio.html

http://www.cnet.com/8301-17914_1-9985085-89.html

Thank You too

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

Looks like we were typing at the same time.

Probably not the first time!

That's the first I've heard about ANSI's not being much more than 5,000:1 (except in the case of LCD). I guess I just assumed (yeah, I know) that since the Kuros were ~13,000:1, then other good quality plasmas would be ~8-10K range. Good to know for future reference.

In reality most LCD's struggle to hit 1,000:1 contrast ratio (not including the full-LED backlit sets) and most projectors in the $2,000~$4,000 bracket reach around 1,500~2,000:1 while most plasma's until the last 3~4 years wouldn't have made it too much over 2,000:1.

This makes the dynamic ratings seems all the more ludicrous.

[genkifd]

[QUOTE=dobyblue;2380413]I've never seen this in real world testing. No TV with an ANSI of 4,000:1 has washed out blacks.
/QUOTE]

you are not getting the point.....

[genkifd]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Probably not the first time!



In reality most LCD's struggle to hit 1,000:1 contrast ratio (not including the full-LED backlit sets) and most projectors in the $2,000~$4,000 bracket reach around 1,500~2,000:1 while most plasma's until the last 3~4 years wouldn't have made it too much over 2,000:1.

This makes the dynamic ratings seems all the more ludicrous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1ZzFLYOiU

CR for projectors

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by genkifd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1ZzFLYOiU

CR for projectors

Nice that they're honest right from the start. More proof that ANSI is the only # that should really be considered.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/vivi...or_review.htm#

Where this projector really shines, though, is ANSI contrast. ANSI contrast describes the relative black and white levels that can appear in the same image at the same time - in other words, ANSI contrast measures the maximum contrast in any one particular image. In the past, the best projectors we've seen measured around 580:1 or 600:1, while many very good projectors measured 450:1 or lower.

This background information is provided in order to put the following number in perspective: the Vivitek H9080FD measured 844:1 ANSI contrast in our test lab. This is nearly half again as much as the next nearest competitor, and very impressive by any reasonable standard. The dynamic range on screen at any given time is broad enough to do justice to even the highest-contrast content available.

I was being generous with 1,500:1 - but this is still superior to most CCFL-LCD sets and behind most plasma sets.

Again, the G10 and V10 approach 4,000:1 ANSI.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by genkifd

you are not getting the point.....

There is no point - a TV with 4,000:1 ANSI will not have washed out blacks, period.

[genkifd]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

There is no point - a TV with 4,000:1 ANSI will not have washed out blacks, period.

lol

[callas01]

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201...y-in-shanghai/

Looks like plasma tvs will be a thing of the past. Never thought I would see Panasonic dumping plasma for LCD/LED.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by callas01

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201...y-in-shanghai/

Looks like plasma tvs will be a thing of the past. Never thought I would see Panasonic dumping plasma for LCD/LED.

I think OLED is the handwriting on the wall.

[dobyblue]

Panasonic has several factories, it is closing one of its factories in China that does dedicated plasma assembly, it will MOVE some plasma assembly to another factory in China (as indicated in the link you posted where it says With the closure of the Shanghai factory, the electronics maker’s plant for liquid crystal display TVs in Shandong Province will become its main production base for TV assembly in China - note it doesn't say "for LCD TV assembly in China") and will continue most of the plasma assembly in Japan and other factories.

WSJ has a more accurate article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...278808676.html

In recent years, the industry has been looking beyond LCD displays. Major television makers, including Panasonic, are developing new models using organic light-emitting-diode, or OLED, technology.

Panasonic said it still manufactures plasma-display panels at its Japanese factory, and assembles plasma-TV sets at several overseas plants.

The decision to close the Shanghai plasma-TV factory doesn't mean the company is walking away from plasma technology, a spokeswoman for Panasonic said. The company still expects demand for plasma panels, particularly for nonconsumer purposes such as large public displays and digital signage, she said.