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Old 02-04-2013, 03:20 AM   #781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:22 PM   #782
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So, where was I? I return from our Super Bowl sports junket and while my wife and I were out walking last night in the neighborhood in order to try to get some exercise after the plane flight back to the West Coast, we meet up with an acquaintance who informs me that for his ‘home business’ (IRS readers, out there), he will be purchasing one of these Sharp babies (hey Slimdude, less than $20K and this is a pro-level 4K monitor)…. http://www.techpowerup.com/179443/Sh...or-Priced.html

My neighbor is quite tech-savy and asks my humble electronics opinion [given the fact that I know, and he knows, that this monitor is claimed to support 60fps (in ‘consumer’ 4K rez) by using either 2 simultaneous HDMI connections or one DisplayPort]… as to whether or not he can get 4K @60fps video out of a REDRAY player if he purchases one of those RED 4Kplayers and hooks it up to his Sharp 4K display for his ‘home business’.

Before I respond to him, initially, I’m wondering if he is planning to write off the REDRAY player as a business deduction too . But anyway, I tell him that I have no insider information about the yet to ship REDRAY player and all I know are the official specs…. http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1354392330.jpg

Which imply, at least to me, that as a standalone device, a REDRAY player *should* provide 4K @ 60fps video to his display, even if it requires two HDMI cables to form the signal path…given that RED’s engineers are well aware of HDMI’s current limitations. If anyone out there has any insight as to this so I can give my friend confirmation, please post something or else send me a PM, if preferable.

My hesitation in confirming to my friend that he will indeed be able to view 4K @ 60fps with his Sharp display vis-à-vis a REDRAY player is that maybe those official 4K projection capabilities, i.e. (“Playback Frame Rates….24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60 fps”) as posted on the RED forum, come with the caveat that one has to purchase the RED projector (which includes a REDRAY player); and essentially use an internal integrated unit, i.e. player built into the projector, in order to circumvent current HDMI limitations.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:35 PM   #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
So, where was I? I return from our Super Bowl sports junket ....
For Baltimoreans, there is nothing in the world like hearing the Baltimore Fight Song played after a Baltimore football team scores a touchdown…especially in the Super Bowl. It brought tears to my eyes.
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/raven...ight-song.html

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Old 02-05-2013, 10:27 PM   #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
For Baltimoreans, there is nothing in the world like hearing the Baltimore Fight Song played after a Baltimore football team scores a touchdown…especially in the Super Bowl. It brought tears to my eyes.
What do they play when Baltimore players assault officials, interfere in the end zone, numerous other infractions and get away with it?

We won't even mention "I didn't see nuttin'" Ray...
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:47 AM   #785
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8ft wide (samsung 85inch) UHDT cost £60,000 in the uk !!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle4779192.ece
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:03 PM   #786
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Nice, very nice!
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:03 PM   #787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joliefan View Post
8ft wide (samsung 85inch) UHDT cost £60,000 in the uk !!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle4779192.ece
thats the one i will be buying at christmas.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:29 PM   #788
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thats the one i will be buying at christmas.
One! Don't be cheap.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:22 PM   #789
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What do they play when Baltimore players assault officials, interfere in the end zone, numerous other infractions and get away with it? ...

Peter, non-calls cut both ways and if you feel the 49ers were somehow cheated out of a victory, here’s another perspective- http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...smith/1891659/

Bottom line, at the end of the day, in my humble opinion, the final score reflected a fair result . And, the players dedicated the win, accordingly ….http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...er-oj-brigance

Don’t fret for the 49ers, given their talent and speed….baring injuries; they’ll be a force for years to come, or, at the very minimum, one more year, given the fact that every starter on their team is under contract for next season.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:38 PM   #790
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Thanks to an anonymous member for sending me the following link because I still haven’t plowed through all of the REDRAY Q&A/comment thread - http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...=1#post1110997

The 2nd paragraph in above post indicates that any capable non-RED monitor hooked up to a REDRAY player *should* display 4K @ 60fps, especially since I know that Stuart is quite tech-savy but, I think unless RED addresses this particular display chain combination (Sharp plus RED player, as noted above) with a direct answer, there remains some doubt.

I’ll try to ask Stuart (in person) at HPA for confirmation if it will definitely work because it's apparent that RED Insiders haven’t been taking questions on that REDRAY thread for some time now.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:37 PM   #791
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Reminds me, b.t.w. a new 4K projector which would be attractive to independent cinemas who are in the market for buying, just recently (1/15) passed all compliance testing with no failures detected -

http://dcimovies.com/compliant_equip...-20130115.html
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:18 PM   #792
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I got to see sony's latest 4K HD projector and LCD TV. It was hard to see how much better it was compared to 1080p since they had all 1080p up scaled.

From what I could tell the up scaled video on the projector looked good. They said that the processors they use take data off the blu-ray disk which has some info they use to reconstruct the 4K image.

I think I would rather have a 4K TV though, especially if I can get a 100" TV. The sony TV had much better blacks and super smooth animation compared to the projector.

They said for now the only way to get 4K media was using the box with the movies they provide with your purchase. They said that if/when content can be downloaded they would provide that to their customers. I got the feeling it would be free of charge for early adopters but that was not said.

They seemed to think that downloading 4K content would be first but blu-ray could be used as the physical media.

They also confirmed my original post which started this thread which that they already have 4K movies, but no hardware to play them and no media to deliver them.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:15 PM   #793
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PAHETIC, PEOPLE do you realize ULTRA and/or 4k at the bitrate of 20 something mb per second, will ONLY give you the almost equivalent of seeing 1080p video at its uncompressed state ?

I have been to a trade show and I have seen - compressed 1080p - right next to a display showing - uncompressed 1080p - and next to it was a prototype display with the - proposed H.265 compressed 4k -and then next to it and - uncompressed 4k display. The clip was only like 15 seconds due to how many terabytes the uncompressed 4k video took up.

the uncompressed video looked almost exactly the same as h2.65 compressed 4k video and the REAL UNCOMPRESSED 4k looked jaw dropping.

SO either give us uncompressed 1080p video or forget 4k UNLESS you give us uncompressed 4k video.
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But the difference was that big huh? The compression codecs are suppose make it so the compressed film looks the same as the uncompressed but i guess there's only so much you can do compressing terabytes of information down to gigs.
The statement was abbrasive, but valid. Even when the format war was in full swing, those inside the industry were talking about how much better Blu-ray could be. One thing I remember vividly is with regards to Chroma Subsampling. There was a call by some in the industry to have a format that allowed for 4:4:4 subsampling to better preserve the original film image. I'm sure 4K is going to be very nice, but on my 60" flatscreen, would I be better off with 4K 4:2:0 or 2K 4:4:4?
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:46 PM   #794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
The statement was abbrasive, but valid. Even when the format war was in full swing, those inside the industry were talking about how much better Blu-ray could be. One thing I remember vividly is with regards to Chroma Subsampling. There was a call by some in the industry to have a format that allowed for 4:4:4 subsampling to better preserve the original film image. I'm sure 4K is going to be very nice, but on my 60" flatscreen, would I be better off with 4K 4:2:0 or 2K 4:4:4?
I agree, Josh. That's why i always say there's other things we should work on besides just adding pixels. 1080p can be improved to look so much better than it already does.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:43 PM   #795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dib2 View Post
I got to see sony's latest 4K HD projector and LCD TV. It was hard to see how much better it was compared to 1080p since they had all 1080p up scaled....
At the last CES, there was an ability to directly compare 4K to 1080p (without upscaling) which I will try to elaborate further upon later because it disproves the accuracy of a commonly accepted viewing/seating distance chart constantly used as a basis to ridicule 4K displays by some tech reporters.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:47 PM   #796
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...They also confirmed my original post which started this thread which that they already have 4K movies, but no hardware to play them and no media to deliver them.
I think the thread has blossomed nicely since you planted the seed.

Given the recent announcements over the past couple of months, I’m actually a little surprised that nobody has taken the initiative to start a generic thread on their feelings about over the top (OTT) 4K services.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:50 PM   #797
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Originally Posted by Josh View Post
...I'm sure 4K is going to be very nice, but on my 60" flatscreen, would I be better off with 4K 4:2:0 or 2K 4:4:4?
Definitely 4K 4:2:0

Beeeecause, good quality chroma upsampling does an excellent job and additionally, luma resolution is much more important than chroma resolution.

For DI processing, 4:4:4 16 bit is nice
http://tech.ebu.ch/testsequences
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:55 PM   #798
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...That's why i always say there's other things we should work on besides just adding pixels.
I know.

On that note, ITU dutifully took into account the support for superior colorimetry, bit depth and higher frame rates (up to 120p) in their parameter values for future 4K (and 8K) displays with the recently approved BT. 2020….

http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...8-I!!PDF-E.pdf

But sorry Hobbit-speed aficionados, there is no 48 included in the futuristic spec. People shouldn't be surprised at this.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:44 PM   #799
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
I know.

On that note, ITU dutifully took into account the support for superior colorimetry, bit depth and higher frame rates (up to 120p) in their parameter values for future 4K (and 8K) displays with the recently approved BT. 2020….

http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...8-I!!PDF-E.pdf

But sorry Hobbit-speed aficionados, there is no 48 included in the futuristic spec. People shouldn't be surprised at this.
So they will upconvert that 48fps to another rate through pulldown?

PS: Not a 49 fan and saw some bad behavior from them as well, just not as much and as blatant as the Raven stuff. Kids see bad sportsmanship being rewarded, and that sucks.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:36 PM   #800
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http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...-still-stupid/

Specifically, see Point #2 -
“2) The eye has a finite resolution
This is basic biology. The accepted "normal" vision is 20/20. In response to my previous articles on the stupidity of 4K TVs, many people argued they had better vision, or some other number should be used. This is like arguing doors should be bigger because there are tall people.”

Well, the only thing I know about doors (and windows, for that matter) is what the http://www.renaissancedoorsandwindows.com/ people tell me before I write them out a check, so I’ll defer that subject to them, as I’ve always been happy with their service and product. I guess that makes me a happy stupid person.

Moving on.

As an inquiring stupid person, I question the applicability of the “basic biology” measurement, namely one arcminute of resolution which was excruciatingly previously described here -

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7...vs-are-stupid/ -which, b.t.w., forms the basis of the following chart, which is touted on internet forums as a Commandment, rather than just a rough guideline for 4K viewing… http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

For, to me as a stupid person, it seems incorrect and limiting in its applicability to real world viewing beeecause, other than “resolution”, there are additional types of visual acuity which play an important role in human vision, namely ‘recognition’, ‘detection’ and ‘hyperacuity’.

Lucky Lecture 21 (for stupid people)
Scroll down to “Table 1 Types of Visual Acuity”, paying particular attention to Vernier (hyperacutiy) and this statement in the paragraph below the Naval Aviator figure…”shows that blur can significantly degrade resolution acuity. As the blur circles become larger, it is more difficult to resolve the two dots. Vernier acuity, on the other hand, is largely unaffected by blur. Whether the upper and lower lines of dots are blurred or not, the visual system is equally able to detect a difference in their positions.” See…http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/v.../Lecture21.pdf

Or, think of it in this way. Two lines must be at least 1 arcminute apart to be assured that they are seen (by people with ‘normal’ 20/20 vision) as separate (resolved), but a misalignment of only 1/10 of this value can easily be detected in two abutting lines, see…http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Hyperacuity

And so, one might then ask, as a smart person, what is the accepted objective measurement for Vernier acuity? One arcminute, like which forms the basis of the cnet article(s) doctrine?

Hardly, again see Table 1 in the provided link…it’s more like 2-10 arc seconds!

I mean really….some tech reporters should realize that the above information is all “basic biology” to imaging scientists. Actually, the more interesting research/debate is advanced along the lines of what are the mechanisms which cause the reduction of Vernier acuity in the elderly, of which logMAR charts…. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....ar#post6698239

are valuable as measuring devices. But research into that is for really, really stupid people…http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3293147/

So, what does this all mean in layman’s terms?

It means…that humans can perceive aliasing and sharpness at distances beyond ‘resolution acuity’… and resolution acuity is what forms the basis of this reporter’s rant…and the calculations which led to the development of that dated home theater viewing distance chart. Or, think of it this way, just because a person can’t read the letters in a row on a Snellen chart at a particular viewing distance, does not mean that he/she can’t see that there are discrete letters at that distance or even much further distances away.

So, how does all this translate into TV viewing? It means that at the last CES, for instance, although one could not read the newspaper print in side-by-side 4K and 1080p displays beyond a distance of about 2 Picture Heights (which could be described as the ‘full benefit’ viewing distance)…. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....es#post7013360

a viewer with normal (20/20 vision) could sit/stand substantially further away from the screen, like at least about 4 Picture Heights away and still perceive a *difference* (difference = better image) between the 4K and 1080p tv’s, with the 4K looking clearer and sharper, esp. when comparative viewing of detailed images characterized by high contrast sensitivity.
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