4K movies get a new format or add to BD?

[epicmovietime]

Just curious when 4K movies eventually start coming out to stores for people to buy if there will be an all together new format for 4K or if Blu-ray will maybe end up getting more layers on the disc to hold more information and they'd just call it "Blu-ray 4K"?

Personally I think it should be a totally new format and call it "Ultra-HD Disc".

[Canada]

I hope they just add more layers to Blu ray's we just went through a format war about 7-8 years ago I don't want to go through another one so soon. If you can get 4K on Blu ray rather than some other delivery medium go for it.

[RocShemp]

If the bandwith and storage issues can be worked out, I'd rather they use BD's with more layers to handle the delivery of 4K content.

REDRAY seems interesting but it's still another format. We really don't need such a change so soon in home media. That said, I could see it being adopted for theatrical applications.

[ImStylinOnYaBro]

red ray doesn't make sense to me for one reason. i saw a "how its made" sort of thing and normal dvd's and cd's use a red laser, but blu and hd dvd used the bluer color laser in the ultraviolet end of hte spectrum because it was quicker or something and the normal red infrared end of the spectrum couldn't handle it.

[RocShemp]

Originally Posted by ImStylinOnYaBro

red ray doesn't make sense to me for one reason. i saw a "how its made" sort of thing and normal dvd's and cd's use a red laser, but blu and hd dvd used the bluer color laser in the ultraviolet end of hte spectrum because it was quicker or something and the normal red infrared end of the spectrum couldn't handle it.

I think the "red" in REDRAY is just a name. Since their cameras are also called RED. It's a brand name. Also, REDRAY doesn't employ optical media.

[Chevypower]

Don't care, just as long as it has no compromises on quality, and please no region coding! I also want to be able to rip it's ISO disc image to a server and play it from that through a media player with 100% content access. I see no different between a 4K Blu-ray and some other disc because it's not like a 4K Blu-ray could play on existing players anyway, so what's the difference?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by ImStylinOnYaBro

red ray doesn't make sense to me for one reason. i saw a "how its made" sort of thing and normal dvd's and cd's use a red laser, but blu and hd dvd used the bluer color laser in the ultraviolet end of hte spectrum because it was quicker or something and the normal red infrared end of the spectrum couldn't handle it.

actually CD is infrared (just on the cusp with red) and BD is more violet than blue to be exact (not UV). The reason is wave length, CD is 780nm, DVD is 650 and BD is 405 the smaller the wavelength the smaller the "pits" can be since the wave needs to be able to get into the pit. so the more pits per area and the more data. There is also depth that plays a role (that is why BD at 0.1mm was 25/50 while HDDVD was 15/30)




But like RocShemp said redray has nothing to do with a red laser as in DVD but that the company is called "red" and they call all their products red____ (i.e the red cameras, REDCINE-X PRO, Red Rocket and the REDRAY player)

[Jimmy Smith]

Some hold on to the belief that adding 2160p support to Blu-Ray is as easy as adding 3D support. However that is simply false. Since Blu-Ray was able to handle nearly 4 hours of play time without compression problems so well (look at how amazing Lawrence of Arabia looks all on a single BD-50 for proof of that) then the 50% higher bitrate 3D required could be added and still hold the good majority of movies without any new disc structure or compression efficiency needed. 2160p is 4x as high as 1080p and thus even without audio a BD-50 with AVC compression would be limited to an hour of video. Add 3D and/or 48 fps far below that. New discs and codecs are a nessesity and thus adding 2160p support will be far more difficult then adding 3D support was.

In 2010 the BDA approved quad layer write once media that has a capacity of 128 gigabytes. Of course since most Blu-Ray players can't read them they are not used for movie releases only for computer data storage but that fact can change if the BDA selects it as the choice for 2160p Ultra def discs. Also word is that new video codec now being called HEVC compression is nearly twice as efficient as AVC used on current blu-rays. Combined such quad layer discs with HEVC compression and 2160p resolution movies could be released and still have similar play times we enjoy from our current Blu-Ray collection. This will probably be the solution the BDA will support if I were to take a guess on the matter but maybe they have another idea in mind

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

2160p is 4x as high as 1080p and thus even without audio a BD-50 with AVC compression would be limited to an hour of video. Add 3D and/or 48 fps far below that. New discs and codecs are a nessesity and thus adding 2160p support will be far more difficult then adding 3D support was.

no, the same way that adding 3D did not require 2x the capacity or BW, 4k won't be anywhere near 4x, it is compressed data, which means that the more info you add the less data you need to add to get the benefit. To put it simply, compression works on two levels

1) blocking: using a block instead of representing each pixel individually. So imagine this, you have an 8x8 block in 1080p consisting of 4 squares each being of different colours, the encoder will, hopefully need to give the pixel info and not the block and so describe the all 64 pixels. Now imagine that we move to 4k instead of it being 256 (4x) pixels that are described, it can be shrunk to 4 blocks (1/8) and so not only will the info be preserved and not need more data but in this example going to 4k actually reduces the amount of data needed to properly encode it.

2) movement: in compression there are i frames and p/b frames, i frames describe the whole pic, but p/b frame just describe the differences. So Let's assume the p/b frame is exactly the same as the i frame, then there will be no difference if the following p/b frame is 4k or2k since it will be the digital version of "ditto"

[Taikero]

They have 100 GB Blu-ray discs and WILL be able to fit "4K" resolution releases on a single 100 GB disc, with the exception of perhaps the longest films.

If/When this does happen, I will only be upgrading the films which require the best video to be enjoyable and as well have exceptional transfers.

Additionally, if a new and better video codec becomes available beyond MPEG-4 AVC, that will lengthen the time of which Blu-ray will be viable.

I must note this will get a bit complicated if more filmmakers opt for 48/60 FPS camera work on their films. More frames = more overall data, after all (though not a 1:1 relationship, obviously).

[Love Blu-Ray]

RedRay is a terrible idea, people will think the old format HD is back (red cases)

[Steedeel]

Redray would be downloadable not actual physical wouldn't it?

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Redray would be downloadable not actual physical wouldn't it?

correct. it's not a disc format

[quikblend]

Originally Posted by wormraper

correct. it's not a disc format

the only problem with digital(audio & video) is that the quality will never be the same as a physical version. (only example that doesn't suffer are video games)

[Taikero]

Originally Posted by quikblend

the only problem with digital(audio & video) is that the quality will never be the same as a physical version. (only example that doesn't suffer are video games)

Not true.

Today, you are correct that they do not match.

However, with proper transfers and lossless video and audio codecs, the results would be indistinguishable from an analog copy to human eyes and ears.

That said, we do not currently have a home theater-friendly solution that allows for this (lossless video is still very large).

As such, we make do with lossy video codecs (MPEG-4 AVC being the current best option) and lossless audio codecs until and when our storage capabilities for a single disc/storage item exceed the demands of lossless video for at minimum a 2 hour 30 minute action movie (I specify action movie due to the increased movement and therefore increased storage requirements).

In the end, the transfer is far and away the most influential portion of the process. We're at the stage now where MPEG-4 AVC vs. lossless video is waaaaayyyyy less important than how the publishing studio created the digital master to begin with (and in fact, digital masters are honestly much better so long as they're 4K-8K native resolution, if only because you don't have to worry about messing up an analog to digital transfer process).

[Ryan0503]

Originally Posted by Love Blu-Ray

RedRay is a terrible idea, people will think the old format HD is back (red cases)

Also from what I read ... redray requires the movie to have been filmed with a RED camera (the hobbit was) so movies already made wouldn't benifit from it

[RocShemp]

Originally Posted by Ryan0503

Also from what I read ... redray requires the movie to have been filmed with a RED camera (the hobbit was) so movies already made wouldn't benifit from it

Having the film shot on RED cameras is not a requirement. REDray is just a distribution method.

[Ryan0503]

Originally Posted by RocShemp

Having the film shot on RED cameras is not a requirement. REDray is just a distribution method.

I misspoke ... it has to be encoded in the RED format ... not filmed with the camera

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1354605554

[Visionist]

Does this mean 4K films not shot on RED will be granted RED encodes for the new player? Otherwise there isn't much point...

Which 4K films avoid this problem by being native RED? The Hobbit is one, Prometheus is another...

If I can't enjoy Skyfall's Shanghai scenes (shot on ARRI Alexa) in 4K on this machine I won't be bothering with it...

[img eL]

Asked about the potential for 4K on Blu-ray discs, he noted that "there has been some progress" on a new industry standard, "but there's no conclusion, and I have to let that forum do their work."

Sony Electronics President and COO Phil Molyneux