PS4 technical discussion

[jsteinhauer]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I think it probably has some sort of internal clock that's still on in standby and that's what it uses to turn itself on at the specified time, but that's nothing compared to what the PS4 sounds capable of doing. It's sort of like the difference between Hibernation and Standby modes on Windows (XP). That analogy isn't perfect as the state you get when your computer resumes is the same, but when powering off, hibernation shuts down nearly completely, while standby mode is in a lower power consumption mode.

Whatever it wants to be called is fine. I think it's great and good for extending the lifespan of the device. It's a waste that the PS3 remains on all night long when I download a game or a movie.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

Whatever it wants to be called is fine. I think it's great and good for extending the lifespan of the device. It's a waste that the PS3 remains on all night long when I download a game or a movie.

I might be misunderstanding you, but there's an option to shut it off automatically after it has finished downloading something.

[Mavrick]

Orbis GPU – compute, queues and pipelines

PS4 GPU has a total of 2 rings and 64 queues on 10 pipelines

- Graphics (GFX) ring and pipeline

• Same as R10xx
• Graphics and compute
• For game

- High Priority Graphics (HP3D) ring and pipeline

• New for Liverpool
• Same as GFX pipeline except no compute capabilities
• For exclusive use by VShell

- 8 Compute-only pipelines

• Each pipeline has 8 queues of a total of 64
• Replaces the 2 compute-only queues and pipelines on R10XX
• Can be used by both game and VShell (likely assign on a pipeline basis, 1 for VShell, and 7 for game)
• Queues can be allocated by game system or by middleware type
• Allows rendering and compute loads to be processed in parallel
• Liverpool compute-only pipelines do not have Constant Update Engines (presented in R10XX cards)

As we said Liverpool GPU is derived from R10XX family from AMD (Southern Islands). Front end blocks, back end blocks, and the basics of the shader cores remain largely unchanged. But they have added some major new additions (mostly aimed at improving the capabilities and efficiences of compute workloads).

Liverpool has multiple compute rings and pipes that provides fine control over how the system resources are divided amongst all of the application’s GPU workloads. This pipelines can perform simulteneous asynchronous compute.

This diagram exposes the queues and pipelines from PS4 GPU.



You can compare the PS4 GPU rings (above) with R10XX retail (below)

[jsteinhauer]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I might be misunderstanding you, but there's an option to shut it off automatically after it has finished downloading something.

Yes, you are just not familiar with my situation. It literally takes all night to download most games and movies. It sometimes turns off before I leave for work.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

Orbis GPU – compute, queues and pipelines

PS4 GPU has a total of 2 rings and 64 queues on 10 pipelines

- Graphics (GFX) ring and pipeline

• Same as R10xx
• Graphics and compute
• For game

- High Priority Graphics (HP3D) ring and pipeline

• New for Liverpool
• Same as GFX pipeline except no compute capabilities
• For exclusive use by VShell

- 8 Compute-only pipelines

• Each pipeline has 8 queues of a total of 64
• Replaces the 2 compute-only queues and pipelines on R10XX
• Can be used by both game and VShell (likely assign on a pipeline basis, 1 for VShell, and 7 for game)
• Queues can be allocated by game system or by middleware type
• Allows rendering and compute loads to be processed in parallel
• Liverpool compute-only pipelines do not have Constant Update Engines (presented in R10XX cards)

As we said Liverpool GPU is derived from R10XX family from AMD (Southern Islands). Front end blocks, back end blocks, and the basics of the shader cores remain largely unchanged. But they have added some major new additions (mostly aimed at improving the capabilities and efficiences of compute workloads).

Liverpool has multiple compute rings and pipes that provides fine control over how the system resources are divided amongst all of the application’s GPU workloads. This pipelines can perform simulteneous asynchronous compute.

This diagram exposes the queues and pipelines from PS4 GPU.



You can compare the PS4 GPU rings (above) with R10XX retail (below)

That's special alright! Super GPGPU efficiency! The future will be a very special one. Years 1 and 3 (and beyond) should be a great years!

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by 42041

Every developer has to deal with limited resources and deadlines.
The original Mass Effect was somewhat out of Bioware's comfort zone as a developer. It was an untested IP, it was their first game for this generation of consoles, there was certainly no guarantee it would be a success. They had to create all the game code and resources from scratch, whereas in ME2 they could polish and re-use lots of that stuff. I don't know the relative budgets of the games, but consider that the second game has almost 3 times as many credited level designers.

The Mass Effect disc was 100% full. So your claim is that they chose to skimp on something they couldn't have added anyway...based on a fear of failure? Note that Mass Effect was about the most anticipated new IP coming to the console before Gears of War was released.

And that's more likely then they had no choice but to cut corners because they were limited on disc space?

*EDIT* Edited for tone.

[42041]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

So your claim is that they chose to skimp on something they couldn't have added anyway...based on a fear of failure?

No, based on the reality of the game business, which is limited time, resources, and manpower to create a product (as well as all the other factors that cause game development to go awry, such as mismanagement, big changes late in the development process, etc). Creating unique content is expensive and time consuming. Reusing content is a cheap way to pad the length of your game.
The disc being full doesn't tell you much. Pretty much anything that takes up any significant amount of space (audio, video, music, textures, etc) is compressed to the appropriate size. And there's always the option of using more discs if that pushes the quality too low. Are you really saying that every game released on a DVD is padded with repeating environments like Mass Effect?

And that's more likely then they had no choice but to cut corners because they were limited on disc space?

Yes, that's my point. That is far more likely.
And I'm arguing this because you're missing the real issue. I guarantee you that triple-A games on this generation will still be short, because the disk space is a secondary issue at best considering how much sheer labor is involved in making modern video games.

Here's an interview with a Bioware guy where he even discusses the issue:
http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/2563673

AusGamers: Were there any concerns over disk size? Other developers have complained about a lack of space on the 360 disks – was that a problem for Mass Effect and if so, was anything pulled from the game because of the issue?

Chris Priestly: Not at all. We didn’t have any issues whatsoever and everything that was intended to make it into the game did. The compression technology we used did a great job and to be honest, we didn’t really see a need to think about two disks or anything like that.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by 42041

And I'm arguing this because you're missing the real issue. I guarantee you that triple-A games on this generation will still be short, because the disk space is a secondary issue at best considering how much sheer labor is involved in making modern video games.

Here's an interview with a Bioware guy where he even discusses the issue:
http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/2563673

A couple of quick comments about these topics, especially regarding how they will impact next-gen development (PS4, NextBox, Wii U).

Shorter games are not happening due to disk space. The shift to shorter games is catering to changing tastes where gamers are just too busy with their lives to invest into 80-hour epic RPGs. Not everyone, mind, but certainly a sizable chunk of people.

This makes sense in context. When we're young and in our teens in grade school and college, free time is often available in large quantities. As we get older and get jobs, spouses/SOs, kids, etc. that free time drops and our ability to just sit down and play a game for an hour or more is reduced.

There are studies showing that the average gamer is now in their 30s, and this trend has everything to do with that. I know that, as someone in my late 30s (part of the original Atari generation of gamers), I certainly have to budget my time for gaming much more carefully now than I ever had to in the past. And I'm atypical, as I'm single.

In that context, while it's also true that longer games cost more resources to make and take up more space, it's not generally true that the gradual reduction in game length is strictly due to this phenomenon. Greater compression, multiple discs, and smarter game design would allow for longer games if the market dictated that longer games were necessary.

That's not to say that the occasional game like Mass Effect 1/2/3 wasn't compromised by DVD limits; they obviously were, going all the way back to how the gameplay itself was designed to avoid disc switching headaches on the lead 360 platform. Mass Effect 2 in particular suffered from this, with the two-part dossier basically dividing the game into three phases (opening, mid-game, endgame). That didn't make ME2 a shorter game though; it's still a decently long 40+ hour game if you don't beeline to the ending.

I expect games to be no shorter in generation 8 than they were in the PS360Wii generation. The only difference from an asset development standpoint is that a little less compression will be used, and game creators can spend opt to spend more time polishing (but hopefully also spend less time optimizing for hardware limitations).

[tarvis]

Are games actually shorter? I honestly can't tell. There certainly don't seem to be as many JRPGS, at least released in the States, as there were on the Playstation. But, is, say, the Playstation classic "One" any longer than a random Playstation 3 action game? Or, I dunno, Super Metroid? That game seems short in my brain.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by tarvis

Are games actually shorter? I honestly can't tell. There certainly don't seem to be as many JRPGS, at least released in the States, as there were on the Playstation. But, is, say, the Playstation classic "One" any longer than a random Playstation 3 action game? Or, I dunno, Super Metroid? That game seems short in my brain.

I'd say they are shorter. Older FPS games used to run about 10-20 hours (see: Duke3D, Half Life 1 & 2, etc.). Nowadays you're lucky if a FPS gives you more than 5 hours in its single player campaign.

Third person brawlers used to be a bit longer too. Maximo is a longer game than God of War I, and God of War I is a longer game than God of War III. You can see the same sort of reduced campaign length in the Devil May Cry series too (DMC1 is a much, much longer game than DMC4 or DmC Devil May Cry).

Even JRPGs used to routinely be 40+++ hour affairs, with a maximum get-everything time sink of 100+h. Nowadays they're more likely to be 20+++ (Final Fantasy XIII, Ni No Kuni, Tales of Graces, etc.), with a max closer to about 60h.

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by tarvis

Are games actually shorter? I honestly can't tell. There certainly don't seem to be as many JRPGS, at least released in the States, as there were on the Playstation. But, is, say, the Playstation classic "One" any longer than a random Playstation 3 action game? Or, I dunno, Super Metroid? That game seems short in my brain.

I don't think they are shorter. Really it comes down to the games and you can pull examples supporting both sides.

Super Metroid is far shorter than Metroid Prime.

Dark Souls is pretty length for a non-Turn based game. ES:IV and Skyrim also come to mind, though I haven't played Skyrim.

Resistance Fall of Man is fairly long for a FPS and it is a launch game. The COD games which seem to focus on MP have shorter campaigns from what I've read.
Far Cry 3 is long as well.

Looking at my Genesis collection most of those games are much shorter. Super Marios Brothers is short as well. Going back further to Atari, games were even shorter.

edit: Maximo!!! Please make another one

[tarvis]

Yeah, same. When I look at my games they seem all over the place. Whether it's a short game like Assault Suit Leynos 2 on the Saturn or the 22 hours I put into Crysis 2 on the PC. Although, in the case of Crysis 2, I know that had a lot to do with the inability to save.

Some of the older first person shooters without a cohesive narrative may have been longer. Like Doom or Quake. Which are just a bunch of levels thrown together in one package. But I can't remember how long a game like Dark Forces is. Other than it's apparently twelve levels.

[Havok83]

Originally Posted by Icemage

I'd say they are shorter. Older FPS games used to run about 10-20 hours (see: Duke3D, Half Life 1 & 2, etc.). Nowadays you're lucky if a FPS gives you more than 5 hours in its single player campaign.

Third person brawlers used to be a bit longer too. Maximo is a longer game than God of War I, and God of War I is a longer game than God of War III. You can see the same sort of reduced campaign length in the Devil May Cry series too (DMC1 is a much, much longer game than DMC4 or DmC Devil May Cry).

FPS these days have a strong emphasis on MP. I would say the replay value is higher in current ones bc of that in spite of a shorter campaign

God of War 1 was not longer than 3. There was a trophy for beating it in under 5 hours and I didn't have any trouble doing that. I believe my final game clock for 3 was closer to 8-9. There wasn't anything long about GoW1.

Im playing through all the DMC games right and on mission 8 of DMC4 and based on my progress and knowing there are 20 missions, it seems like it will be roughly the same length as the original unless things start to speed up towards the latter half

Anyways as pointed above, there are plenty of examples of long games this gen. Castelvania Lord of Shadows and the Assassins Creed series also come to mind. I actually think being long hurt those IMO. The pacing was off and I felt LoS and AC3 dragged on towards the end

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by 42041

No, based on the reality of the game business, which is limited time, resources, and manpower to create a product (as well as all the other factors that cause game development to go awry, such as mismanagement, big changes late in the development process, etc). Creating unique content is expensive and time consuming. Reusing content is a cheap way to pad the length of your game.
The disc being full doesn't tell you much. Pretty much anything that takes up any significant amount of space (audio, video, music, textures, etc) is compressed to the appropriate size. And there's always the option of using more discs if that pushes the quality too low. Are you really saying that every game released on a DVD is padded with repeating environments like Mass Effect?

Almost no games on the 360 use the entire DVD. Mass Effect is one of a dozen over the life of the console. Neither Mass Effect 2 nor 3 used the full DVDs(3 came close on one of the two discs). Neither did games you might expect to like GTA4, Final Fantasy XIII, the Halo franchise, Skyrim/Oblivion, or the Gears of War franchise. So you are going to need to support this theory that things are compressed to the appropriate size, with more than just your hunch, because frankly they aren't.

Yes, that's my point. That is far more likely.
And I'm arguing this because you're missing the real issue. I guarantee you that triple-A games on this generation will still be short, because the disk space is a secondary issue at best considering how much sheer labor is involved in making modern video games.

Here's an interview with a Bioware guy where he even discusses the issue:
http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/2563673

This has NOTHING to do with what I said, which is that DVD limited Mass Effect. Game length is irrelevant to this statement, because changing the layout of the caves would not have changed the length of the game. Media limitation is more than just game length.

I'm still waiting for the explanation as to why Mass Effect is the one and only game Bioware has ever created where they did this by choice.

*EDIT* FWIW, a few other games that used the entire DVD were Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, The Darkness, and Final Fantasy XI.

[xtop]

remember those rumors of the next xbox blocking used games and sony saying they wouldn't block them? yeahhhhhhh, you can bet if 1 is doing it, they're both doing it

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1825112...ified_yet.html

Sony's stance on second-hand games working on PlayStation 4 'isn't clarified just yet' admits Fergal Gara, Managing Director Of PlayStation UK.

The admission came during our PS4 interview with Gara, when we asked that following confirmation that second-hand games won't be blocked on PS4 [Source: EuroGamer], if Sony ever considered going down that route.

"Well first of all, we haven’t stated that second-hand games… we haven’t made a statement on the second-hand games question," answered Gara. "There was a lot of reaction to a patent that was filed, which is a matter of course for a technology business like us, to file various patents at various times, many of which many never see any application but they are good to have depending on ideas that might be building."

"So what we’re here to do is offer the best value and the best gaming experience for gamers," he continued. "The answer to the pre-owned question isn’t clarified just yet and we’re working through that and we’ll announce our position in more detail as and when we can."

So it seems that second-hand games being blocked on PlayStation 4 could very much still happen.

[DetroitSportsFan]

Originally Posted by xtop

remember those rumors of the next xbox blocking used games and sony saying they wouldn't block them? yeahhhhhhh, you can bet if 1 is doing it, they're both doing it

Agreed. It would be suicide for the console that does it if the other doesn't.

I wonder how many people will stand by their word and not buy either console if that's the case? I'm guessing not many.

[i007spectre]

I have seen lots of complaints from other sites about PS4 games don't look significantly better. But with my theater set up, native 1080p in games is a huge deal.

[kristoffer]

Originally Posted by xtop

remember those rumors of the next xbox blocking used games and sony saying they wouldn't block them? yeahhhhhhh, you can bet if 1 is doing it, they're both doing it

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1825112...ified_yet.html

Well that sucks!

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by i007spectre

I have seen lots of complaints from other sites about PS4 games don't look significantly better. But with my theater set up, native 1080p in games is a huge deal.

They will look MUCH better in time. Graphics arent the ONLY thing that better processing power will get you.

For me the number one thing I am hoping for is FEWER loading screens.

Games like Skyrim and Fallout come to mind.

[NARMAK]

I think people actually need to remember YouTube isn't a good way to measure the total quality of a 1080p game

HQ 1080p dowloads are probably the closest thing you can check the potential quality on imo. Still, i have a high expectation that i feel will be met. I remember watching Ridge Racer and NFS at launch thinking they were really good looking, but fast forwards to now and look at the visuals of NFS most wanted, GT5 etc.

Also, i think PS4 will at the very least provide a very visible jump at launch over PS3 in all areas. So i'll be impressed enough and i'm guessing mainly from 1st part studios, but i'm really looking forwards to the long term potential they'll get out of it