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Old 09-02-2013, 02:54 AM   #221
Christian Muth Christian Muth is offline
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80's film stocks were a lot slower and didn't have much latitude so it was harder to light for films and especially hard to shoot in low lighting with good results. David Cronenberg abd his cinematographer talk about this in the commentary track for Videodrome, so yes there is a very good reason a lot of these low budget 80s horror films look softer than others.
I know film stocks were slower back then, but that wouldn't explain why daylight shots and well-lit interiors on Q show almost no detail in the Blu-ray.com screenshots (look at the 4th and 5th screenshots, both well-lit close ups). Also, having lower light will result in an underexposed or more grainy image (if the negative was push-developed to compensate) but will not make the image soft.

I'm willing to concede that perhaps the screen-shots accompanying the review on this site are wildly inaccurate, but barring that I don't see how Q could possibly be an actual HD transfer.

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Old 09-02-2013, 03:42 AM   #222
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80's film stocks were a lot slower and didn't have much latitude so it was harder to light for films and especially hard to shoot in low lighting with good results. David Cronenberg abd his cinematographer talk about this in the commentary track for Videodrome, so yes there is a very good reason a lot of these low budget 80s horror films look softer than others.
You're absolutely right - film stock did change in the 1980s, and it had a pretty dramatic impact on the general "look" of the films from that period. That said, Videodrome looks really good on Blu-ray. It was never going to look like The Sound of Music or Lawrence of Arabia, no, but it still has a more than decent level of detail, and a present (if coarse) grain structure.

The Day of the Dead caps (so far, at least?) don't look anywhere near as good as Videodrome, despite having been shot in roughly the same period, and likely in comparable film stocks with fairly similar lighting situations. The first shot in particular on the RSP Review looks downright bad, but maybe this has to do with the shot being from an optical sequence? I'd have to double check... honestly, it's been far too many years since I've watched DAY.

Still waiting/hoping Cliff can tell us something about this HD transfer. When the telecine was made, what 35mm materials were used, who oversaw the work, and so forth. Hey, if this is really as good as Day of the Dead can and will ever look, I'm willing to listen to why... so long as he doesn't blame Fortune Star, I'm all ears.


That said, holy crap, it looks like Q - The Winged Serpent was completely blasted of anything resembling film grain. You want to see what optical softness looks like, check out The Burning - yes, it's soft, but there's still grain everywhere. Who thought "Q" looked ready to go?!
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Old 09-02-2013, 03:47 AM   #223
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I'm not sure this is completely fair, Lyle.

Most of the more problematic transfers that Scream has delivered have other origins. True, it'd be nice if they were able to take a more hands-on approach with the Universal titles (They Live and it looks like <d'oh!!!> Prince of Darkness too), as Cliff has stated unequivocally that he doesn't use DNR, but I guess it's out of his hands when the transfer comes from a third party.

I suppose the most egregious example is the upscaled Phantasm II. The dated master on The Howling didn't exactly knock my socks off either.

I'm so bummed about Prince of Darkness. Why couldn't Universal have left it alone?! More and more I'm of the opinion that Halloween II was a mistake, not a fluke.

I'll be buying the new Day of the Dead for sure; at least it has grain.
People keep falsely stating that Phantasm II is upscaled. It isn't - I've heard and seen enough evidence in that thread to believe that it isn't upscaled. Bad master - absolutely. Upscale - no.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:02 AM   #224
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I took the liberty of matching one of the shots to the Arrow Blu-Ray. Huge difference. The Arrow BD never really looked all that hot, so keep that in mind. This is a no-brainer, at least for me. The frame is not exact, but as close as I could get, also keep in mind that the Shout cap is lossy, so the BD will probably end up looking better. I think I'll pre-order this.

Enjoy!
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/39004
Ill most likely be buying the Shout release, but I will say the colors are just a bit too bright for me. I never saw this in theaters, and ill wait to see more comparisons, but when I see the pumped up contrast/brightness on the gun (with it losing definition between the varying reflection) it seems just too much... Not trying to be a complainer really, just my thoughts. The absence of DNR is a big plus for Shout though, obviously.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:16 AM   #225
Zivouhr Zivouhr is offline
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What's Horror Hound?
Horror Hound Magazine. Very colorful, well designed horror magazine on newstands at Barnes and Nobles and book stores.

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Originally Posted by Kentai View Post
If it's a new scan for DAY OF THE DEAD, hell yeah I'm in! But if they're just going to dust off the old "Divimax" master, I'm probably going to sit this one out. Already have AB's release, and at this point I've seen enough bonus features for this film to last a lifetime.

EDIT: "New Extras!!" being the key selling point isn't a great start... but hey, we'll see.
New extras sound good, thanks. Romero's Day of the Dead is one of the most memorable horror movies I've ever seen over the years. The gore was off the charts, Savini and Nicotero (KNB).
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Old 09-02-2013, 05:19 AM   #226
tylergfoster tylergfoster is offline
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Originally Posted by Kentai View Post
The Day of the Dead caps (so far, at least?) don't look anywhere near as good as Videodrome, despite having been shot in roughly the same period, and likely in comparable film stocks with fairly similar lighting situations. The first shot in particular on the RSP Review looks downright bad, but maybe this has to do with the shot being from an optical sequence? I'd have to double check... honestly, it's been far too many years since I've watched DAY.
Considering I JUST clicked through the Criterion Videodrome to make a screencap for my facebook (I saw it in 35mm last night!), there's certainly no question about this. Even in its softest or grainiest shots, Videodrome shows more detail than Day of the Dead ever musters. I do find this curious, if not suspicious.

Finishing my review 20 or so minutes ago, I just found a print flaw in the Shout! Day of the Dead and capped it. I am now ripping the Arrow to find the same scene and see if the defect is there also. I will post caps either way.

EDIT: Here you go. Can't quite tell if this is an exact frame grab due to the slightly different framing -- are my eyes playing tricks on me? In any case, I do not see the defect, which is quite visible in motion, on the Arrow.

http://www.tylergfoster.com/images/rhodesshout.png
http://www.tylergfoster.com/images/rhodesarrow.png
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Last edited by tylergfoster; 09-02-2013 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 09-02-2013, 05:58 AM   #227
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Considering I JUST clicked through the Criterion Videodrome to make a screencap for my facebook (I saw it in 35mm last night!), there's certainly no question about this. Even in its softest or grainiest shots, Videodrome shows more detail than Day of the Dead ever musters. I do find this curious, if not suspicious.

Finishing my review 20 or so minutes ago, I just found a print flaw in the Shout! Day of the Dead and capped it. I am now ripping the Arrow to find the same scene and see if the defect is there also. I will post caps either way.

EDIT: Here you go. Can't quite tell if this is an exact frame grab due to the slightly different framing -- are my eyes playing tricks on me? In any case, I do not see the defect, which is quite visible in motion, on the Arrow.

http://www.tylergfoster.com/images/rhodesshout.png
http://www.tylergfoster.com/images/rhodesarrow.png
So we're basing how Day of the Dead should look based off of how Videodrome looks? Not exactly seeing how that's a valid comparison.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:11 AM   #228
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So we're basing how Day of the Dead should look based off of how Videodrome looks? Not exactly seeing how that's a valid comparison.
Because Day of the Dead was shot by the legendary cinematographer, David Cronenberg
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:26 AM   #229
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Wow... People are starting to flip out on DAY OF THE DEAD based off of one review Ian did and comments from each other about it looking poor, as if most of you have seen it already. Amazing. Shout really has become a target for some of you. That's really too bad that so many are quick to jump on this sad bandwagon. Making ridiculous and absolutely false claims of PHANTASM II being an upscale, as well as many other Scream titles, not to mention some actually thinking the terrible UK bd of THE FOG looks better than Shout's transfer. Some of you really need to get out more, or actually think for yourselves and make educated comments after you actually have the disc and have watched it. I think some of you don't even understand the terminology that you're throwing around on forums like this. I know Kentai does - but at least he's the first to admit that his comments are based off of screen caps, that he may not have see a disc yet, and that he'll admit when he's wrong. No wonder Cliff doesn't participate like he used to here and some other places.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:53 AM   #230
mar3o mar3o is offline
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Wow... People are starting to flip out on DAY OF THE DEAD based off of one review Ian did and comments from each other about it looking poor, as if most of you have seen it already. Amazing. Shout really has become a target for some of you. That's really too bad that so many are quick to jump on this sad bandwagon. Making ridiculous and absolutely false claims of PHANTASM II being an upscale, as well as many other Scream titles, not to mention some actually thinking the terrible UK bd of THE FOG looks better than Shout's transfer. Some of you really need to get out more, or actually think for yourselves and make educated comments after you actually have the disc and have watched it. I think some of you don't even understand the terminology that you're throwing around on forums like this. I know Kentai does - but at least he's the first to admit that his comments are based off of screen caps, that he may not have see a disc yet, and that he'll admit when he's wrong. No wonder Cliff doesn't participate like he used to here and some other places.

I just watched The Incredible Melting Man tonight actually, and I was blown away by how good it looked. Good color, nice, bright transfer, outstanding blacks, nice grain, and stunning detail - so I'm a fan of Shout Factory actually - when they get it right. There was a shot in The Incredible Melting Man where you could see some printing, and you could easily see the detail of the text - now I look at that screenshot of the newspaper from Day of the Dead, and the text looks awful - no detail at all in the image.

I'm willing to see and hear more about this transfer - I'm just saying that right now, there may be reason to believe this transfer may be problematic.
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:05 AM   #231
deepbreathsanddeath deepbreathsanddeath is offline
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This may sound silly, but maybe the print on the newspaper in day of the dead has always been blurry because it doesn't actually say anything particularly relavent and it just serves as a generic newspaper with a relavent headline? I can't give any examples off the top of my head but I always see it happen in movies. I could be completely wrong but I'm just saying that it does seem to be a fairly normal thing in low budget older horror movies. Might not be a problem with the transfer.

In any event, its doubtful this will ever be a perfect transfer. They're not Criterion and at least this one looks grainy. I'm not expecting a revelatory transfer but I think it'll be a good one. I only own the arrow set after all.

Just ease up on them for pete sake.
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:08 AM   #232
Lyle_JP Lyle_JP is online now
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People keep falsely stating that Phantasm II is upscaled. It isn't - I've heard and seen enough evidence in that thread to believe that it isn't upscaled. Bad master - absolutely. Upscale - no.
I agree. It's piss poor quality for blu-ray, but there's still quite a bit more detail than my PAL Anchor Bay DVD. It's not an upconvert.
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:34 AM   #233
Christian Muth Christian Muth is offline
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So we're basing how Day of the Dead should look based off of how Videodrome looks? Not exactly seeing how that's a valid comparison.
Since you want to play that game, let me point out that the first person to bring VIDEODROME into this discussion was somebody who was DEFENDING Scream Factory: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=212

So it's okay to use an unrelated (albeit same era) title when you're defending something, but not as a counter-argument?

Chris
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:12 AM   #234
Funcha Funcha is offline
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Since you want to play that game, let me point out that the first person to bring VIDEODROME into this discussion was somebody who was DEFENDING Scream Factory: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=212

So it's okay to use an unrelated (albeit same era) title when you're defending something, but not as a counter-argument?

Chris
Whether defending or counter arguing, I don't think any other film makes a perfectly sound basis on determining why one particular film looks as it does. Condition of the negative or film print scanned, cameras used, possible filters used on lenses, lighting, etc. could all be wildly different from one production to the next. Sure, there may be similar factors that may influence the possibility of films from the same era possibly having the same fine grain, sharpness, softness etc. but think there's too many other potential variables at play.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:22 AM   #235
tylergfoster tylergfoster is offline
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I was just making a comment. I wasn't using it as an argument for or against anything.

The main point I was making was that I discovered a print defect in Shout's transfer that is not on the Arrow and posted screencaptures. I don't know that that's conclusive evidence they're not the same transfer but it might be useful.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:13 AM   #236
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Universal did the transfer. Of course it has problems.
It look like I may have to import the German release for the transfer.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:18 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by bgart13 View Post
Wow... People are starting to flip out on DAY OF THE DEAD based off of one review Ian did and comments from each other about it looking poor, as if most of you have seen it already. Amazing. Shout really has become a target for some of you. That's really too bad that so many are quick to jump on this sad bandwagon. Making ridiculous and absolutely false claims of PHANTASM II being an upscale, as well as many other Scream titles, not to mention some actually thinking the terrible UK bd of THE FOG looks better than Shout's transfer. Some of you really need to get out more, or actually think for yourselves and make educated comments after you actually have the disc and have watched it. I think some of you don't even understand the terminology that you're throwing around on forums like this. I know Kentai does - but at least he's the first to admit that his comments are based off of screen caps, that he may not have see a disc yet, and that he'll admit when he's wrong. No wonder Cliff doesn't participate like he used to here and some other places.
Sure. But here's the thing: I did actually watch Shout's edition of the Fog and posted my thoughts (in short: it's good, but not great), and still got shouted down for not drooling over it like a hungry dog eyeing a t-bone.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:10 PM   #238
balthazar_bee balthazar_bee is offline
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Amazing. Shout really has become a target for some of you. That's really too bad that so many are quick to jump on this sad bandwagon. Making ridiculous and absolutely false claims of PHANTASM II being an upscale, as well as many other Scream titles, not to mention some actually thinking the terrible UK bd of THE FOG looks better than Shout's transfer.
I'm generally in Shout's corner, broheim, but I call it as I see it.

As such, I would never claim that the UK release of The Fog is superior to Scream's. I'm also happy as a pig in shit that they're going to be releasing the Psycho sequels and (!) Witchboard.

However, that doesn't change the fact that I can't really see any more detail (whether in motion or via screengrabs) in the Phantasm II blu-ray than the DVD. Is it an upscale? I don't know. But it ain't exactly a satisfying HD presentation.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:55 PM   #239
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At first when this was announced, I was upset that it didn't have all of the Anchor Bay features. But today I was comparing the features of the Scream release with the AB and Arrow releases, and it's not as bad as I thought. If you have the Arrow and Scream releases (which both have exclusive features not available elsewhere), the only thing you are missing from the AB release is the Gateway Commerce Center featurette! It's actually pretty nice how the Scream release doesn't have any of the same features as the Arrow release, except for the Wampum Mine promo.
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:33 PM   #240
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At first when this was announced, I was upset that it didn't have all of the Anchor Bay features. But today I was comparing the features of the Scream release with the AB and Arrow releases, and it's not as bad as I thought. If you have the Arrow and Scream releases (which both have exclusive features not available elsewhere), the only thing you are missing from the AB release is the Gateway Commerce Center featurette! It's actually pretty nice how the Scream release doesn't have any of the same features as the Arrow release, except for the Wampum Mine promo.
That's how I see it. I own the Arrow release already so ill be happy to have both
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