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Old 08-13-2013, 06:56 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenia View Post
Ecran Large posted an update of the French Plein Soleil BD from SC : http://www.ecranlarge.com/dvd_review-list-16375.php
They have been able to screen the French BD VS the French DCP VS the Criterion BD in a theater (owned by Carlotta, so the editors are really playing along ).

The French DCP is, according to them, equivalent to the French SC BD minus a logical lower resolution and a slight "veil" impacting the contrast.
I have a very simple comment: What is on the Blu-ray does cannot in any way come close to what Mr. Clement and Mr. Decae shot. And you don't have to be an expert to know and understand why

And since I have your attention here: Let me repeat one more time that there are no serious compression anomalies on the Shoah disc.

Thanks.

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Old 08-13-2013, 06:57 PM   #62
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Q & A Blu-ray REVIEW

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Old 08-14-2013, 06:23 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
I have a very simple comment: What is on the Blu-ray does cannot in any way come close to what Mr. Clement and Mr. Decae shot. And you don't have to be an expert to know and understand why
Of course, but still. The point is that the DCP which has been applauded here and there is said to have the same look that the BD which is booed everywhere, which makes me wonder why the color scheme of the Criterion should be prefered, especially since I understood on Classik that the Criterion color scheme is not especially close to the regular Decaë cinematography.

After this, it's quite clear that the 4K restoration has big issues. There should be no way for a BD taken from a 2K restoration to be better than one from a 4K restoration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
And since I have your attention here: Let me repeat one more time that there are no serious compression anomalies on the Shoah disc.


I still think that an encode coming from a 4K restoration shouldn't have that type of look. You told me that comes from Shoah being shot on 16mm. But Following was also shot on 16mm and restored in 4K, and it doesn't have this type of grain resolution, which looks as artifacts to me.

Anyway, I received since my copy from B&N and will have a personal look.

I wouldn't say anyway that it has "serious" compression issues. But it would have seemingly been better if Criterion chose not to overload the discs with 4hr+ on each BD.

On the other end, I do wonder about the scanner they use.
If you look at the screencaps at Caps-a-holic for Koyaanisqatsi, they are quite representative of what I've seen when I watched the Criterion BD and they seem to have the same grain pattern than Shoah.

Last edited by tenia; 08-14-2013 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:26 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by tenia View Post
Of course, but still. The point is that the DCP which has been applauded here and there is said to have the same look that the BD which is booed everywhere, which makes me wonder why the color scheme of the Criterion should be prefered, especially since I understood on Classik that the Criterion color scheme is not especially close to the regular Decaë cinematography.


After this, it's quite clear that the 4K restoration has big issues. There should be no way for a BD taken from a 2K restoration to be better than one from a 4K restoration.





I still think that an encode coming from a 4K restoration shouldn't have that type of look. You told me that comes from Shoah being shot on 16mm. But Following was also shot on 16mm and restored in 4K, and it doesn't have this type of grain resolution, which looks as artifacts to me.

Anyway, I received since my copy from B&N and will have a personal look.

I wouldn't say anyway that it has "serious" compression issues. But it would have seemingly been better if Criterion chose not to overload the discs with 4hr+ on each BD.

On the other end, I do wonder about the scanner they use.
If you look at the screencaps at Caps-a-holic for Koyaanisqatsi, they are quite representative of what I've seen when I watched the Criterion BD and they seem to have the same grain pattern than Shoah.
1. Mr. Decae - The cinematography and/or Mr. Decae's color preferences(s) are the very last things I would worry about with this resto and the transfer that is on the Blu-ray. There are very basic issues on display here that are directly linked to the filtering that has been applied. Start there.

On the other hand, it is easy to tell that the actual 4K resto was of very high quality because even with the filtering you can see that there are many close-ups that look quite pleasing. So the type of depth you would expect from a 4K scan, the ultra-fine grain, it was all there. Then someone did something. I have zero desire to speculate what was done or what was the idea behind it, but to come forward and try to argue that Mr. Decae's cinematography and color preference(s) had to be reproduced with heavy filtering is disrespectful.

2. Criterion. I see on different French forums people making comments that Criterion like to "Americanize" the color-schemes on films. And European films in particular.

Here's what I have to say about this: In the past Criterion have made some inappropriate adjustments, but they have actually been very honest about them. They have even addressed them publicly. Color grading was an issue with some of the Melville films they released on DVD back in the days. But in the Blu-ray era things have been pretty much balanced across the board because a lot of labels now coordinate their efforts. (See Army of Shadows). There are a couple of films where I prefer the cooler European grading on European releases (see Canal's Belle de jour) as opposed to the warmer grading (typically meaning elevated reds and blacks), but there have not been any massive discrepancies to address. So, please give credit where credit is due: Criterion's release has a convincing organic look and despite all the speculations produced on French forums, it has a color-scheme that very much works for Plein soleil. I am afraid this isn't the case on the other end, where some of the criticism for the Criterion release has originated from. In other words, some people should have studied and debated the look of the new resto long before they placed it on Blu-ray, not after.

Bottom line is this: The resto, with the Blu-ray release, was not a small project. It was a huge project. It was an expensive project. It was a very important project. And the fact that Canal had a living legend agree to do an exclusive interview for it to publicly state his respect for Mr. Clement should have forced people to check, recheck, recheck one more time, and then check again everything before it was signed off and sent to the pressing facility.

3. Shoah was completed in 1985. A lot more was done before that and on different locations and under different conditions. Following was shot in 1998, and under vastly different conditions. I mean, really, to try and compare these two films and draw some definitive conclusions about their looks on Blu-ray because both were shot on 16mm is rather strange.

And one last point. This practice of first looking at what discs are used (single-layer/double-layer, etc), forming an opinion and then trying to defend it is also rather strange.

You can relax, Tenia. Shoah's restoration and presentation on Blu-ray is outstanding. It is a fabulous release from Criterion. End of story.

Have a great week, Tenia, and I hope to see you on the forum

Pro-B

Last edited by pro-bassoonist; 08-14-2013 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 08-14-2013, 08:38 AM   #65
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I will precise my thoughts because I actually agree with you here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
1. Mr. Decae
That is exactly my point. One can't discuss today about the right or the wrong color scheme. Nobody relevant is alive today to validate one or the other color scheme.

However, as you write, the 4K restoration has been filtered at a later stage, and the BD clearly show this.

My point was simply to show that the new DCP shown at Cannes has a look very close to the French / UK BD, so the filtering seems to have been done during the restoration and not for the BD, which is something that highly bothers me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
2. Criterion
Same here. Yes, indeed, something wrong happened during the 4K restoration.
And it's clear that Criterion are known to tweak the colors of their release. Contrast boost is something they often use and is widely known. There are Le cercle rouge, Army of Shadows, Belle de jour, but also Senso, The Burmese Harp, etc, but it doesn't bother me more than this.

However, the difference of colors on Plein Soleil is quite extreme and I would wonder which one is the closest to what was thought during the shooting.

But I agree with you : on such a big project, with I guess a big budget, it's quite sad that something like this can happen, but unfortunately, between this, Madame De, Le samourai and Les enfants du Paradis...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
3. Shoah was completed in 1985. A lot more was done before that and on different locations and under different conditions. Following was shot in 1998, and under vastly different conditions. I mean, really, to try and compare these two films and draw some definitive conclusions about their looks on Blu-ray because both were shot on 16mm is rather strange.
I admit it's a long shot.
But I'm still surprised by what shows Shoah on BD as part of the grain resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
And one last point. This practice of first looking at what discs are used (single-layer/double-layer, etc), forming an opinion and then trying to defend it is also rather strange.
It's not looking first at specs. I learnt quite long time ago that one can have an average bitrate of 20 Mbps and having wildly different results. You can also have maxed out bitrates but have compression artifacts (Carlotta Dressed to Kill BD).

So I'm not defending an opinion based on bitrates analysis but rather trying to understand where what I think I see might be coming from.

It seems to me that Shoah shows slight compression issues. Knowing that the whole 9hr+ movie was planned at first to be spread on 3 BDs, one can guess it might be coming from the switch to 2 BDs only.

In the end, it simply looks to me that Criterion, not having the habit to deal with less than about 22 Mbps av. bitrate, are not used to optimise their encodes for this type of lower bitrates.
Fanny & Alexander TV version, Carlos, The Last Emperor, these are 3 releases with lower-than-usual bitrates, and all 3 show compression issues.

Same technical team for the encode, same lab for the BD mastering. At some point, it looks like habits, usual flows and all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
You can relax, Tenia. Shoah's restoration and presentation on Blu-ray is outstanding. It is a fabulous release from Criterion.
Oh, it's nit-picking. I don't think it will hamper my viewing in any form.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:27 AM   #66
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:59 AM   #67
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Old 11-29-2013, 01:32 AM   #68
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:17 AM   #69
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:44 AM   #70
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:27 AM   #71
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:22 PM   #72
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Old 03-30-2014, 11:10 AM   #73
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Old 05-11-2014, 08:32 AM   #74
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Old 06-09-2014, 07:18 AM   #75
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:40 AM   #76
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Old 09-17-2014, 03:30 PM   #77
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is there a list of french (classic) movies that you would recommend importing that are english friendly? (english SDH subs would be nice)
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Old 09-17-2014, 08:45 PM   #78
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Hi Mansinthe

I don't have a list but I could recommend some films later today. If you are looking for something to add to your order, Pathe's La Reine Margot is one of the year's top releases.

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Old 09-17-2014, 09:00 PM   #79
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i was gonna get queen margot from Cohen for the bonus features
im region free and i dont mind importing movies from criterion / cohen / kino etc but i was looking for releases that are superiror in france.


Secret beyond the door (fritz lang) is one of the movies i want from france.
i dont really need to have eng sdh , but it would be nice if they are included on heavy dialoge driven movies.
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