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Old 02-23-2015, 04:20 AM   #1741
StingingVelvet StingingVelvet is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion138 View Post
Yeah...we see his peak...we just don't see how he got there. I enjoy the movie, as is, but it's lazy storytelling to have the most transformative part of your hero's journey take place off-screen.
I don't agree, like I said. Not sure why you wrote "yeah" when I'm disagreeing with you.

We definitely see his transformation in personality, authority and aggressiveness and I think those are the only important aspects. First he learns he can talk to this man, then he begins to talk with authority to others, then he becomes a genius manipulator, then he becomes the dominant voice in the room. This is all shown on screen while the gun stuff is glossed over because the film is about the former, not the latter.
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:29 AM   #1742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingingVelvet View Post
I don't agree, like I said. Not sure why you wrote "yeah" when I'm disagreeing with you.

We definitely see his transformation in personality, authority and aggressiveness and I think those are the only important aspects. First he learns he can talk to this man, then he begins to talk with authority to others, then he becomes a genius manipulator, then he becomes the dominant voice in the room. This is all shown on screen while the gun stuff is glossed over because the film is about the former, not the latter.
I wrote "Yeah," because you said that we see him at his peak...the one point in you entire post with which I agree. Syntax was pretty clear, I thought.

And what we see is Django emerging from his winter bounty hunting with Schultz (all of which takes place off-screen) a completely changed man.

Last edited by Oblivion138; 02-23-2015 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:41 AM   #1743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion138 View Post
I wrote "Yeah," because you said that we see him at his peak...the one point in you entire post with which I agree. Syntax was pretty clear, I thought.

And what we see is Django emerging from his winter bounty hunting with Schultz (all of which takes place off-screen) a completely changed man.

So u didnt seen any progression at all before winter?
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Old 02-23-2015, 03:53 PM   #1744
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We got a training montage. Did you want more training montages?
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Old 02-23-2015, 04:13 PM   #1745
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I sort of agree with Oblivion.

Not that Django's a bad film -- not at all -- but it suffers when compared to its immediate predecessor, Inglourious Basterds.

Menke's loss as editor is definitely felt (at least by me), because where the previous film is a marvel of construction, bringing together various disparate characters and elements gradually and then exploding them spectacularly in the final reel, Django has a fairly linear and straightforward story to tell, and yet it stumbles.

I don't know if it's too long or too short or what, but (particularly in the last half hour or so) it seems to lose steam.

Anyway, Jim Emerson explained some of these issues better than I ever could on his "Scanners" blog: http://www.rogerebert.com/scanners/d...nd-set-me-free
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Old 02-23-2015, 04:18 PM   #1746
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There are definitely plot structure issues, no one is saying otherwise. I think they're in the script more than the editing, but either way I agree with that.

I just don't agree Django gets his character development off-screen. Him learning to kill isn't the development that matters, plus they show him to be a natural anyway. His character development is learning to be assertive and confident, and that all happens on-screen.
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Old 02-23-2015, 04:22 PM   #1747
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We got a training montage. Did you want more training montages?
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:01 PM   #1748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balthazar_bee View Post
I sort of agree with Oblivion.

Not that Django's a bad film -- not at all -- but it suffers when compared to its immediate predecessor, Inglourious Basterds.

Menke's loss as editor is definitely felt (at least by me), because where the previous film is a marvel of construction, bringing together various disparate characters and elements gradually and then exploding them spectacularly in the final reel, Django has a fairly linear and straightforward story to tell, and yet it stumbles.

I don't know if it's too long or too short or what, but (particularly in the last half hour or so) it seems to lose steam.

Anyway, Jim Emerson explained some of these issues better than I ever could on his "Scanners" blog: http://www.rogerebert.com/scanners/d...nd-set-me-free
I felt the climax of Django was the best part. I got goosebumps when the
[Show spoiler]shootout
began. I thought it was more restrained and better acted than Inglourious Basterds as well.

However, I prefer Inglourious. It's my favorite Tarantino film and I'm obsessed with it. I think because it's less restrained it takes bigger risks and is more rewarding.
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Old 02-24-2015, 04:16 PM   #1749
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That's the thing though. I love the shootout too -- but the shootout isn't the conclusion. Instead, the film stops cold, takes us somewhere else, then takes us back to the very same location for more shooting.

It just seems sloppy when compared with the previous two hours.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:43 PM   #1750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balthazar_bee View Post
That's the thing though. I love the shootout too -- but the shootout isn't the conclusion. Instead, the film stops cold, takes us somewhere else, then takes us back to the very same location for more shooting.

It just seems sloppy when compared with the previous two hours.
Remember in Inglourious Basterds how we never got to see how Shosanna became the owner of the cinema? Tarantino shot all those scenes, but he cut them out for pacing issues and insisted that it's much more interesting for the audience to speculate how things came to be. He even said he could have made an entire movie just about that theater story. I agree. He could have done the same thing with Django. After the shootout, they should have kept the "torture" scene with Jackson and that small snippet where Django's on his way to the mining company (but without any of the dialogue. Just the very beginning). Then cut back to the funeral and when the family comes home, Django awaits them just like he does in the final cut. Stephen could ask some stupid question how he got back and Django just replies "I climbed the mountain... slayed the dragon... and walked through hellfire, because Brunhilda is worth it." BAM! Django starts shooting those basterds. End of story

Last edited by BladeRunner2007; 02-24-2015 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:54 PM   #1751
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Gee, with that approach, I guess Kill Bill coulda just been shortened to Kill Bill, Part 1/2.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:57 PM   #1752
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Probably most problems with Django's structure have more to do with all the rewrites that were done on set due to the shoot taking much longer than expected. Some characters were either dropped or combined with others, and whole scenes got the axe before cameras could start rolling on them.
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Old 02-24-2015, 06:25 PM   #1753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balthazar_bee View Post
That's the thing though. I love the shootout too -- but the shootout isn't the conclusion. Instead, the film stops cold, takes us somewhere else, then takes us back to the very same location for more shooting.

It just seems sloppy when compared with the previous two hours.
Because the shootout isn't the big climax for his character. The climax is him coming into his own as a man and taking a dominant role, which he doesn't fully do until after shootout when he cons the slavers and dominates the family remnants.

If you see the film as about Django becoming a real complete person after being a slave the structure makes complete sense.
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Old 02-24-2015, 06:33 PM   #1754
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Did anyone else think the slipcover was craply made? It was basically construction paper, it felt cheap and something a new studio with a budget of zero would put out.
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Old 02-24-2015, 07:53 PM   #1755
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My recycling bin didn't seem to know the difference.
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