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Old 02-15-2015, 03:58 PM   #2481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Benny View Post
Happy Friday JJ!!
love looking at pix of your place man!!! so awesome!!
Thanks, Benny!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DangeRuss View Post
What's going on J ?
You know .............. I see this same complaint from a lot of people when talking about their matching center speaker (not being able to keep up) and I'm kinda mystified ......... To me and in my system the center channel conveys most of the information during movies and as such is prominent speaker. My front towers only support the actions of the center (pans etc.) with the exception of the accompanying musical score. But unless the center's have a much lower sensitivity than the towers I can't see where all of the issues are stemming from. Of course because the center is physically smaller and has less cabinet volume it won't produce sound in quite the same way as the towers but ....... If the crossovers are set properly the sub should be picking up the slack for the smaller speaker.
Now I guess if we're talking about playing movies at earth shattering dB levels I can see where the center (and even surrounds) would run out of gas before the towers ........ I don't know
So could someone enlighten me to this phenomena
BTW: I had no idea that the 2.5's were that light
Well, I had this issue with my HTM62 and B&W 683s, very well documented around this thread when I made the switch to my Sonus Faber. I thought it was just “part of the deal” and I never knew quite what I was missing. And I fully agree, in home theater – for full immersion, the center channel may just be the most important. I’m looking over the stats now and the following info stands out –
The sensitivity of the 2.5s and the Center is the same – 89 dB SPL. So that’s not a biggie. But the size difference is noticeable. It’s hard to quantify via looking at the specs what the issue is. But you can hear it. The crossover for the 2.5s is set at 250 Hz and 2.5kHz, while for the Venere Center it’s 1.8kHz. The drivers are 7” in the towers versus 6” in the center.

But I don’t play films at earth shattering levels. It’s not painful to my ears, and I know a couple buddies who turn it up to painful for x/y reason. I hate that. We all have what we consider, for our room, to be reference volume. But it just FEELS like in some movies the center starts sputtering. And I can notice it. So that’s why I’m curious to try the Verus Grand.

And yeah, the 2.5s are 43 lbs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badas View Post
^
I don't think matching is important but to my mind the Center has to be able to handle loads. Like you pointed out a lot of a movie soundtrack is in the Center. What about things like gunshots? Mine hits and slams so hard you can feel it in your chest. So that is why mine is more powerful than my other speakers. It has a built in amp and the two outer drivers are crossed over subs. Insane speaker.
Yep. I’m not married to timbre matching. Never was. Just for the sake of aesthetics, maybe. But the load handling is important. And I really want to see how much of a difference the larger, heftier Verus Grand makes. Although I will note its crossover information is not available online. That midrange driver is what is most tantalizing to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aces high View Post
Hi JJ,
The new setup looks great!!! Very well done.
Russ,
I've run into this problem a couple of times and am currently having the same problem as JJ, my Monitor Audio Silver Center just doesn't keep up to the Monitor Audio Silver 10's that I'm using as mains. What I'm thinking part of the problem is where the internal crossover is to the woofers vs which frequency one crosses the speakers over at in the processor to the subwoofer. The Silver 10 woofers have a 500hz crossover, so from 500hz and down the Silver 10's have the output of four 8 inch woofers in a much larger ported cabinet. The Silver Center has two 6.5 inch woofers in a small sealed cabinet. This causes the towers to sound much more dynamic and have much great output potential vs the center.
I never had any problems with any of the Paradigm speakers I've owned in the past in this regard. Part of that is that a couple of the Paradigm centers I've owned were very large speakers but did own a couple of the smaller models as well. For instance the Paradigm Signature S6 towers I once owned have a 190hz crossover to the woofers, therefore the added output of the woofers doesn't kick in until a much lower frequency, which is also much closer to what one would use for a crossover to a subwoofer.
Not sure what the crossover for the woofers in JJ's speakers are, wasn't able to find that bit of info on the Sonus Faber website. Anyway this has just been my experience over the years I've been into this hobby.
Thanks, Andrew!

And I also agree with your sentiments re: crossovers – as I noted above when comparing the stats of the 2.5 and the Center. Maybe it's all psychoacoustics, but I know a lot of others who share these sentiments. Sometimes center channels are afterthoughts, like when GoldenEar tried to match that teeny soundbar to their massive Tritons. The Paradigm centers that I know, further up the line, are huge – some the size of towers laid horizontally, if I recall. Sonus Faber used to have all the info on their site, but now it isn’t present. For reference, I found it in the product manuals themselves:

Quote:
Venere 2.5 Tower
Tweeter:
1” (29 mm) High-definition fabric dome

Mid-Woofer:
7” (180 mm) Curv cone driver

Woofer:
7” (180 mm) compression-free basket design with thermo-molded polypropylene textile Curv cone driver

Crossover Point:
250Hz and 2.5kHz

Frequency Response:
40Hz ‐ 25kHz

Sensitivity:
89 dB SPL (2.83 V/1m)

Nominal impendence:
6 ohms

Suggested Amplifier Power Output:
40W ‐ 250W without clipping

Dimensions (HWD):
43.6 x 13.4 x 17.2 in., 1107 x 340 x 437 mm

Weight:
43lbs., 19.45kg each
Quote:
Venere Center
Tweeter:
1” (29 mm) High-definition fabric dome

Mid-Woofer:
2 x 6” (150 mm) Curv cone driver

Crossover Point:
1.8kHz

Frequency Response:
60Hz ‐ 25kHz

Sensitivity:
89 dB SPL (2.83 V/1m)

Nominal impendence:
6 ohms

Suggested Amplifier Power Output:
30W ‐ 150W without clipping

Dimensions (HWD):
8.8 x 19.7 x 11.5 in., 222 x 500 x 290 mm

Weight:
21.0lbs., 9.5kg each
Quote:
Aperion Grand Verus Center
1" Custom Aperion ASR Tweeter
4” Woven Kevlar Woofer Midrange
(2) 6” Woven Kevlar Woofers
Frequency Response: (+/- 3dB) 50-20,000 Hz
(+/- 6dB) 42-22,000 Hz
Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Recommended Power: 40 - 300 Watts
Driver Configuration: 3- Way
Bass Alignment: Sealed
Dimensions: 9" H x 24.75" W x 11" D
Weight: 39 lbs.
In another 2-3 weeks, I'll have the Verus at home. Check out the recommended power, weight between the 2.5s and the Grand Verus. Who knows if it'll make a difference, but it's a heck of a lot more similar than the 2.5s and their matching center. Also to note - higher up the Sonus Faber line, the Olympica center channel, on paper, has similar stats to the Grand Verus. However, the Olympica center is $5,500.
- Orbis non Sufficit
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Last edited by JJ; 02-15-2015 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 02-15-2015, 04:39 PM   #2482
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Originally Posted by Badas View Post
^

I don't think matching is important but to my mind the Center has to be able to handle loads. Like you pointed out a lot of a movie soundtrack is in the Center. What about things like gunshots? Mine hits and slams so hard you can feel it in your chest. So that is why mine is more powerful than my other speakers. It has a built in amp and the two outer drivers are crossed over subs. Insane speaker.
I beg to differ when it come to timber matching . But then again, I rarely if ever come close to reference levels during playback

Quote:
Originally Posted by aces high View Post
Hi JJ,


The new setup looks great!!! Very well done.

Russ,

I've run into this problem a couple of times and am currently having the same problem as JJ, my Monitor Audio Silver Center just doesn't keep up to the Monitor Audio Silver 10's that I'm using as mains. What I'm thinking part of the problem is where the internal crossover is to the woofers vs which frequency one crosses the speakers over at in the processor to the subwoofer. The Silver 10 woofers have a 500hz crossover, so from 500hz and down the Silver 10's have the output of four 8 inch woofers in a much larger ported cabinet. The Silver Center has two 6.5 inch woofers in a small sealed cabinet. This causes the towers to sound much more dynamic and have much great output potential vs the center.

I never had any problems with any of the Paradigm speakers I've owned in the past in this regard. Part of that is that a couple of the Paradigm centers I've owned were very large speakers but did own a couple of the smaller models as well. For instance the Paradigm Signature S6 towers I once owned have a 190hz crossover to the woofers, therefore the added output of the woofers doesn't kick in until a much lower frequency, which is also much closer to what one would use for a crossover to a subwoofer.

Not sure what the crossover for the woofers in JJ's speakers are, wasn't able to find that bit of info on the Sonus Faber website. Anyway this has just been my experience over the years I've been into this hobby.
You were one of the members I thought about when discussing this issue ........... And I really can't see highly regarded manufacturers such as B&W, Dynaudio, MA and others selling or promoting center channel speakers that don't cut the mustard . I understand what you're talking about when discussing the crossovers but I think the phenomena has more to do with sensitivity and total output than the crossovers especially when you consider the bass management that's going in the processing of the entire array
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Old 02-16-2015, 01:32 PM   #2483
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I beg to differ when it come to timber matching . But then again, I rarely if ever come close to reference levels during playback

You were one of the members I thought about when discussing this issue ........... And I really can't see highly regarded manufacturers such as B&W, Dynaudio, MA and others selling or promoting center channel speakers that don't cut the mustard . I understand what you're talking about when discussing the crossovers but I think the phenomena has more to do with sensitivity and total output than the crossovers especially when you consider the bass management that's going in the processing of the entire array
I'd love to see what your reference volume is, now I'm curious. I do know everyone has their own particular quirks for what they play as. Some say "0" on their receiver is reference volume but that's earth-shattering loudness that hurts to me. But that also depends on how your receiver does the volume control anyway. But I side with Badas. Timbre matching from the LF/RF to the C...eh. What with EQ tweaking, they don't sound as alike anyway. And if I run the same EQ of the towers to the center, the center sounds bleh. So there it is.

I don't think it's a matter of cutting the mustard or not, I just think it's a matter of the center channel design in and of itself, and the inherent drawbacks (from an acoustic design standpoint) of creating a speaker that sits horizontally and is far smaller than its matching tower brethren to create a similar sound. I draw this from my own experience in listening to matching centers/towers from a wide variety of manufacturers.

Call me crazy, but sometimes I feel like the design process for center channels - in all manufacturers - is just "make it X*Y*Z in size, and so it looks kind of the same as the [towers/bookshelves of the same line], use the same drivers from the [towers/bookshelves of the same line], slap em in an MTM arrangement, cut the price by 25-50%, and sell em"
- Orbis non Sufficit
================

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Last edited by JJ; 02-16-2015 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 02-16-2015, 01:54 PM   #2484
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Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I'd love to see what your reference volume is, now I'm curious. I do know everyone has their own particular quirks for what they play as. Some say "0" on their receiver is reference volume but that's earth-shattering loudness that hurts to me. But that also depends on how your receiver does the volume control anyway. But I side with Badas. Timbre matching from the LF/RF to the C...eh. What with EQ tweaking, they don't sound as alike anyway. And if I run the same EQ of the towers to the center, the center sounds bleh. So there it is.

I don't think it's a matter of cutting the mustard or not, I just think it's a matter of the center channel design in and of itself, and the inherent drawbacks (from an acoustic design standpoint) of creating a speaker that sits horizontally and is far smaller than its matching tower brethren to create a similar sound. I draw this from my own experience in listening to matching centers/towers from a wide variety of manufacturers.

Call me crazy, but sometimes I feel like the design process for center channels - in all manufacturers - is just "make it X*Y*Z in size, and so it looks kind of the same as the [towers/bookshelves of the same line], use the same drivers from the [towers/bookshelves of the same line], slap em in an MTM arrangement, cut the price by 25-50%, and sell em"
That could be it ................ Just the deficiencies inherit in the design of horizontal center channels as seen here

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=89614

I guess the only solution would be buying a matching front speaker
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Old 02-16-2015, 11:36 PM   #2485
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Hello Gentleman.

This is a very interesting conversation. I had the same concerns when I changed my speaker array to the Klipsch Icon WF package. As dynamic as the speakers are, the 5.5" drivers alone guarantees that low end performance will be strickly for the accompanying subs.

Using SPL meters and REW calibration tools, I was able to improve the output across the front stage to near balanced performance. Not perfect mind you, but much better than before.

Now, here's my question? Doesn't current auto room correction calibration software built into today's pre-pro's and AVR's supposed to take speaker size/capabilities and room size and shape into acount during calibration, making up for deficiencies inherent in most room and speaker design? Is that an ambitious assumption?

I read time and time again how Audyssey XT32 is the holy grail when it comes to improving overall speaker dynamics, response and balancing output?

Granted, I will admit that there's not a single ARC software program that can fix a poorly designed speaker.
Regards,

My Room as of Sept 2014

"Chance favors only the prepared mind." Louis Pasteur

Last edited by ldgibson76; 02-17-2015 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:08 PM   #2486
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Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post
Hello Gentleman.

This is a very interesting conversation. I had the same concerns when I changed my speaker array to the Klipsch Icon WF package. As dynamic as the speakers are, the 5.5" drivers alone guarantees that low end performance will be strickly for the accompanying subs.

Using SPL meters and REW calibration tools, I was able to improve the output across the front stage to near balanced performance. Not perfect mind you, but much better than before.

Now, here's my question? Doesn't current auto room correction calibration software built into today's pre-pro's and AVR's supposed to take speaker size/capabilities and room size and shape into acount during calibration, making up for deficiencies inherent in most room and speaker design? Is that an ambitious assumption?

I read time and time again how Audyssey XT32 is the holy grail when it comes to improving overall speaker dynamics, response and balancing output?

Granted, I will admit that there's not a single ARC software program that can fix a poorly designed speaker.
Good morning, Lawrence

See, now your last three paragraphs raise another interesting variable to the fold manufacturer-specific room correction software. For my part, Ive always felt that Pioneers MCACC was a little lacking in this although Ill note that I think this moreso because of what Ive read online as to MCACCs drawbacks versus the purported quality of Audyssey. Now, I only had Audyssey for 4 months when I owned a Marantz 7002 and that receiver failed for a wide variety of other reasons, so I cant accurately compare using personal experience. But online they preach the benefits of Audyssey versus the limited capacity of MCACC. I know nothing of YPAO beyond anecdotes here and there.

But I DO know that my existing room is an acoustic nightmare and I do wonder if Audyssey could do more here than MCACC. I feel like for the average room, yours is an OK assumption to make, like say an enclosed 15x20 room with 7 ceilings, or a living room. In my room, it may be a little ambitious - software can only do yet so much for physics, you know.

Since my entire unit is open plan and 2-stories, well...now Im not so sure that Audyssey or MCACC or YPAO can create miracles here with the center channel. The Venere towers are masterpieces and breathtakers. When I dB match my entire front three using my SPL meter, the center channel practically disappears. I have to raise it by around 3-4 dBs manually to ensure it is clearly audible over surrounding effects.

Hopefully the Grand Verus and my future new Marantz receiver will provide some answers.
- Orbis non Sufficit
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Old 03-01-2015, 01:18 PM   #2487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post
Hello Gentleman.

This is a very interesting conversation. I had the same concerns when I changed my speaker array to the Klipsch Icon WF package. As dynamic as the speakers are, the 5.5" drivers alone guarantees that low end performance will be strickly for the accompanying subs.

Using SPL meters and REW calibration tools, I was able to improve the output across the front stage to near balanced performance. Not perfect mind you, but much better than before.

Now, here's my question? Doesn't current auto room correction calibration software built into today's pre-pro's and AVR's supposed to take speaker size/capabilities and room size and shape into acount during calibration, making up for deficiencies inherent in most room and speaker design? Is that an ambitious assumption?

I read time and time again how Audyssey XT32 is the holy grail when it comes to improving overall speaker dynamics, response and balancing output?

Granted, I will admit that there's not a single ARC software program that can fix a poorly designed speaker.

You wouod be amazed as to how good of a job it does do though. Unless you're in a studio no ones room is perfect. frim my experience xt32 is far superior then the others. Hopefully JJ will feel the same.
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Old 03-03-2015, 11:25 PM   #2488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post
Hello Gentleman.

This is a very interesting conversation. I had the same concerns when I changed my speaker array to the Klipsch Icon WF package. As dynamic as the speakers are, the 5.5" drivers alone guarantees that low end performance will be strickly for the accompanying subs.

Using SPL meters and REW calibration tools, I was able to improve the output across the front stage to near balanced performance. Not perfect mind you, but much better than before.

Now, here's my question? Doesn't current auto room correction calibration software built into today's pre-pro's and AVR's supposed to take speaker size/capabilities and room size and shape into acount during calibration, making up for deficiencies inherent in most room and speaker design? Is that an ambitious assumption?

I read time and time again how Audyssey XT32 is the holy grail when it comes to improving overall speaker dynamics, response and balancing output?

Granted, I will admit that there's not a single ARC software program that can fix a poorly designed speaker.
Hello LDG,

I think you last sentence is a very good observation, Audyssey can't work miracles. It's not that either JJ's or my center channel is poorly designed or of poor quality, they just have been designed in such a way that the output is compromised when using either with the larger tower speaker in each respective line. Both are designed around what sells rather than all out audio performance. Being sealed allows for a smaller size which which will fit in most av cabinet shelves, or will allow placement close to the wall without the performance compromises of a rear ported cabinet that is placed against a wall.

I've tried my MA Silver center with a couple of different models of bookshelf speakers ( MA Silver 1 and Paradigm Studio 20 v5 ) this configuration worked out much better to my ears. The output capabilities of all three speakers is much more closely matched, which makes for a better listening experience to my ears. I only find the MA Silver Center to start to fall behind when using the much larger and higher output Silver 10 towers.

I just wish that MA and others would offer a couple of center channel models in some of their speaker lines which only feature a small center. I realize that the sales numbers probably don't justify the expense of development, marketing and all the other things that go into selling these products and maintaining profitability. It seems with a number of companies you need to step up to the next price bracket to get a choice of center channel speakers.
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Old 03-04-2015, 09:17 PM   #2489
ldgibson76 ldgibson76 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aces high View Post
Hello LDG,

I think you last sentence is a very good observation, Audyssey can't work miracles. It's not that either JJ's or my center channel is poorly designed or of poor quality, they just have been designed in such a way that the output is compromised when using either with the larger tower speaker in each respective line. Both are designed around what sells rather than all out audio performance. Being sealed allows for a smaller size which which will fit in most av cabinet shelves, or will allow placement close to the wall without the performance compromises of a rear ported cabinet that is placed against a wall.

I've tried my MA Silver center with a couple of different models of bookshelf speakers ( MA Silver 1 and Paradigm Studio 20 v5 ) this configuration worked out much better to my ears. The output capabilities of all three speakers is much more closely matched, which makes for a better listening experience to my ears. I only find the MA Silver Center to start to fall behind when using the much larger and higher output Silver 10 towers.

I just wish that MA and others would offer a couple of center channel models in some of their speaker lines which only feature a small center. I realize that the sales numbers probably don't justify the expense of development, marketing and all the other things that go into selling these products and maintaining profitability. It seems with a number of companies you need to step up to the next price bracket to get a choice of center channel speakers.
Hello Aces.

It's really good to read from you. I hope all is well with you and the family.
When I made reference to poor design of the "center channel", I was speaking in general terms regarding the industry standard of a horizontal profile. The MA Silver Center and the Aperion Grand Versus Center for what they are, are both very strong centers. They may fall behind when compared to their floor standing counterparts, but nonetheless, they are very effective speakers. My poor little WC-24 can hardly keep up with the WF-35 towers.

I have a few questions for you,....

-At what point or where and when (movie watching or multi-channel music listening or both?) exactly do you experience the center channel fall off or it not being able to keep up with the towers?

-Did you have this same experience with the Dynaudio front stage?

-What expection do you have regarding the center's performance?

I ask the last question because the manufacturers and the studio's may have a different agenda when it comes to center channel capabilities.

Being that dialogue is the primary responsibility of the center, does that reduce the need to make it perform like or keep up with the towers? Off course, we all desire balance panning across the front stage but therein lies the conflict. Can you have true balanced performance across the front stage with a horizontal speaker?
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Old 03-08-2015, 02:20 PM   #2490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShockWave View Post
You wouod be amazed as to how good of a job it does do though. Unless you're in a studio no ones room is perfect. frim my experience xt32 is far superior then the others. Hopefully JJ will feel the same.
If it wasn't for the fact that I don't feel like spending $1k+ on an already obsolete 2014 receiver that won't be 4K compatible.

I think I'll just get a $750 Denon X4000 from 2013, which has the basics I need - XT32, preouts, 3D passthrough, basically - and stick with that until I decide to go full 4K in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aces high View Post
Hello LDG,

I think you last sentence is a very good observation, Audyssey can't work miracles. It's not that either JJ's or my center channel is poorly designed or of poor quality, they just have been designed in such a way that the output is compromised when using either with the larger tower speaker in each respective line. Both are designed around what sells rather than all out audio performance. Being sealed allows for a smaller size which which will fit in most av cabinet shelves, or will allow placement close to the wall without the performance compromises of a rear ported cabinet that is placed against a wall.

I've tried my MA Silver center with a couple of different models of bookshelf speakers ( MA Silver 1 and Paradigm Studio 20 v5 ) this configuration worked out much better to my ears. The output capabilities of all three speakers is much more closely matched, which makes for a better listening experience to my ears. I only find the MA Silver Center to start to fall behind when using the much larger and higher output Silver 10 towers.

I just wish that MA and others would offer a couple of center channel models in some of their speaker lines which only feature a small center. I realize that the sales numbers probably don't justify the expense of development, marketing and all the other things that go into selling these products and maintaining profitability. It seems with a number of companies you need to step up to the next price bracket to get a choice of center channel speakers.
Well, Andrew, poorly designed or not, I have seen a handful of folks whom at movie reference volumes, have qualms with the Venere center keeping up. But you nailed it in what I bolded above. I feel like that's the compromise right there. Paradigm does offer the massive centers we feel would keep up, but if we're spending this much $ on the towers already, we would have no qualms spending that much on the center. Just make it keep up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post
Hello Aces.

It's really good to read from you. I hope all is well with you and the family.
When I made reference to poor design of the "center channel", I was speaking in general terms regarding the industry standard of a horizontal profile. The MA Silver Center and the [Sonus Faber Venere (edit)] for what they are, are both very strong centers. They may fall behind when compared to their floor standing counterparts, but nonetheless, they are very effective speakers. My poor little WC-24 can hardly keep up with the WF-35 towers.

I have a few questions for you,....

-At what point or where and when (movie watching or multi-channel music listening or both?) exactly do you experience the center channel fall off or it not being able to keep up with the towers?

Movie watching only, at movie-watching volume levels. Not watching, say, "Friends" on Netflix at a reasonable level, but say watching "Fury" on Blu-ray at reference levels. It does just fine on the former.

-What expection do you have regarding the center's performance?

To keep up with the towers with a distortion free performance, readily audible performance.

I ask the last question because the manufacturers and the studio's may have a different agenda when it comes to center channel capabilities.

Being that dialogue is the primary responsibility of the center, does that reduce the need to make it perform like or keep up with the towers? Off course, we all desire balance panning across the front stage but therein lies the conflict. Can you have true balanced performance across the front stage with a horizontal speaker?
The Aperion will be here on Wednesday and then I can compare it to my Sonus Faber Venere center. I edited your post, Lawrence, the Venere center is the one I'm having qualms with. Effective or not on its own, it doesn't make me happy when compared to the masterpieces that the Venere are.

Re: your last paragraph, Lawrence, dialogue is a huge responsibility, I don't know why manufacturers would minimize it. Centers have the same "load-bearing", in my opinion, of towers, since they go through the same effects during movies - gunshots, dialogue, explosions, weather, ambient effects - I'd say everything but the movie's soundtrack comes through the center. And I do agree - you can't have a true balance performance across the front stage with a horizontal speaker, so timbre matching be damned, I want the best horizontal center channel possible (you know, aesthetics and placement).
- Orbis non Sufficit
================

Sonus Faber Venere - Epik Empire
Epson HC-5030ub - 92" DIY Screen - Emotiva XPA-3
Pioneer Elite VSX-03 - Pioneer Elite DV-48 - Sony S790

Last edited by JJ; 03-14-2015 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 03-14-2015, 04:29 PM   #2491
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Well, the Aperion Grand Verus smacked the Venere center. The Venere center has been sold.

I'm also acquiring a Denon X4000 for use as a prepro, replacing my aged Pioneer VSX03 -

...and probably selling my Epson 5030 in exchange for a Sony VPLHW40.

More details to come.
- Orbis non Sufficit
================

Sonus Faber Venere - Epik Empire
Epson HC-5030ub - 92" DIY Screen - Emotiva XPA-3
Pioneer Elite VSX-03 - Pioneer Elite DV-48 - Sony S790
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Old 03-14-2015, 07:05 PM   #2492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Well, the Aperion Grand Verus smacked the Venere center. The Venere center has been sold.

I'm also acquiring a Denon X4000 for use as a prepro, replacing my aged Pioneer VSX03 -

...and probably selling my Epson 5030 in exchange for a Sony VPLHW40.

More details to come.
That's a big project.

A bit like mine last year. I changed the AVR and power amps. Added a second blu player, PS4, changed subs from Polk to SVS and changed the projector. I must say it was overwhelming and I have only just started getting the gear calibrated correctly. It was hard work.
Source: iPod 160G in Arcam DrDock, 2x Oppo BDP-103D's (Blu-ray, CD, SACD and DVD Audio), PS3 and PS4.
Amplification: Marantz SR7009(Atmos), 2x Marantz MM7055's (10 amps bi-amping 5 channels).
Speakers: (Atmos 5.3.2): 4 x Polk RTiA7's, Polk CSP 1000, 2x Atlantic TLC-8.2, Polk PSW 1200, 2x SVS SB Ultra 13's and triple buttkicker system.
Projection: Dreamvision Yunzi + 3 Tentation Ltd. Ed.
Headgear: Woo WA22 (tube amp), Oppo HA-1 (DAC and amp), Audeze LCD-3.

BLU's FOR SALE
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Old 03-15-2015, 05:32 PM   #2493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badas View Post
That's a big project.

A bit like mine last year. I changed the AVR and power amps. Added a second blu player, PS4, changed subs from Polk to SVS and changed the projector. I must say it was overwhelming and I have only just started getting the gear calibrated correctly. It was hard work.
I saw the dreaded "screen door" effect on my 5030 and now I can't see it. Took me 2 months to notice it, but now that I did (curse you, Simpsons movie and your simple color/black line animation) I can't unsee it and it's distracting. So yeah, I made the decision to move onto the Sony VPL40, with its DLP tech, I don't have that. Lose a little bit of black level, but gain more contrast, so it's worth it to me.

I'm excited for the X4000. I'll probably place the order today. Thought about selling my VSX03 but it's the oldest piece of HT gear I still have so I'm kinda attached to it.



More info on that pic later.
- Orbis non Sufficit
================

Sonus Faber Venere - Epik Empire
Epson HC-5030ub - 92" DIY Screen - Emotiva XPA-3
Pioneer Elite VSX-03 - Pioneer Elite DV-48 - Sony S790
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Old 03-15-2015, 09:43 PM   #2494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I saw the dreaded "screen door" effect on my 5030 and now I can't see it. Took me 2 months to notice it, but now that I did (curse you, Simpsons movie and your simple color/black line animation) I can't unsee it and it's distracting. So yeah, I made the decision to move onto the Sony VPL40, with its DLP tech, I don't have that. Lose a little bit of black level, but gain more contrast, so it's worth it to me.
The Sony VPL40 is not really a DLP tech. Well it kinda is. Kinda not.

It is Sony's SXRD tech which is LCOS (Liquid crystal on silicone). They really developed it so they could copy JVC's D-ILA (Digital Image Light Amplifier (stupid name) tech without paying a license.

SXRD or LCOS or D-ILA is basically all the same. It is the DLP micro mirrors with tiny LCD panels stuck to each mirror. So each mirror can iluminate Red, Green, Blue or not at all for white. This eliminates the need for a colour wheel that single chip-set DLP's require. So no rainbow effect. The DLP micro mirrors have a larger inter pixel fill than LCD. So less screen door. At the moment it is the best of everything on offer.

With my projector that I purchased last year I have the ability of choosing 4K or dot for dot pixel matching at 1080P. Putting it into 1080P mode is interesting. When close to the screen you can barely see pixels. D-ILA or SXRD has very faint lines between pixels. not very noticable. When I stick in 4K you just can not see anything that looks like a pixel. Not a chance of seeing it.
For 1080P blu-ray I thought 1080P dot for dot mode would be best and I used that for the first 6 months. I however have been using 4K upscale since the start of the year and I can't go back to 1080P. The 1080P upscaled to 4K does introduced some nice qualities. First most noticable thing is subtitles. They are so smooth. No staircase effect. Very natural. The other is hard to describe in words. If I pause a frame and flick between 1080P and upscaled 4K it is almost impossible to pick which is which or what is better. It is that close. However as you play a movie you realize everything just looks so smooth in 4K. No digital effects. Digital is gone. It really looks like film. I think you lose just a tad of sharpness with 4K upscaled as it is blending edges however that slight loss in sharpness is overtaken by the pure beauty of the image. I really don't feel like I have a digital projector anymore. It doesn't look digital.

Long rant. Sorry.

Edit: I found my original screen shots showing the 4K upscale effect. See the staircasing is gone from the logo. So has pixels.



You might find interesting.

Okay.

I did this for you guys last night. To show the 4k upscaling results.

Firstly I had to just throw up this pic. That 4K2K 24 in the menu is cool aye.



Right. The easiest thing to show the results of smoothing is white graphics on black background. A bit like subtitles. I like what upscaling does to them.

A lot of members will recognize the Oppo home Menu. Look at those bloody black levels. Gets me every time.

Keep an eye out for the settings symbol far right middle row.



Here it is 4K off. This years pixel structure is so good.



Okay. Very hard to get a photo of the pixel structure. Very close to screen. Look at the jaggies. 1080P mode.



4K upscale is now on. Photo taken as close as possible to the previous position. Note pixel structure completely gone and edges smoothed. Jaggies almost gone. However I think a little softer.



So there you go. 4K upscaling.
Source: iPod 160G in Arcam DrDock, 2x Oppo BDP-103D's (Blu-ray, CD, SACD and DVD Audio), PS3 and PS4.
Amplification: Marantz SR7009(Atmos), 2x Marantz MM7055's (10 amps bi-amping 5 channels).
Speakers: (Atmos 5.3.2): 4 x Polk RTiA7's, Polk CSP 1000, 2x Atlantic TLC-8.2, Polk PSW 1200, 2x SVS SB Ultra 13's and triple buttkicker system.
Projection: Dreamvision Yunzi + 3 Tentation Ltd. Ed.
Headgear: Woo WA22 (tube amp), Oppo HA-1 (DAC and amp), Audeze LCD-3.

BLU's FOR SALE

Last edited by Badas; 03-15-2015 at 09:52 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 AM   #2495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badas View Post
The Sony VPL40 is not really a DLP tech. Well it kinda is. Kinda not.

It is Sony's SXRD tech which is LCOS (Liquid crystal on silicone). They really developed it so they could copy JVC's D-ILA (Digital Image Light Amplifier (stupid name) tech without paying a license.

SXRD or LCOS or D-ILA is basically all the same. It is the DLP micro mirrors with tiny LCD panels stuck to each mirror. So each mirror can iluminate Red, Green, Blue or not at all for white. This eliminates the need for a colour wheel that single chip-set DLP's require. So no rainbow effect. The DLP micro mirrors have a larger inter pixel fill than LCD. So less screen door. At the moment it is the best of everything on offer.

With my projector that I purchased last year I have the ability of choosing 4K or dot for dot pixel matching at 1080P. Putting it into 1080P mode is interesting. When close to the screen you can barely see pixels. D-ILA or SXRD has very faint lines between pixels. not very noticable. When I stick in 4K you just can not see anything that looks like a pixel. Not a chance of seeing it.
For 1080P blu-ray I thought 1080P dot for dot mode would be best and I used that for the first 6 months. I however have been using 4K upscale since the start of the year and I can't go back to 1080P. The 1080P upscaled to 4K does introduced some nice qualities. First most noticable thing is subtitles. They are so smooth. No staircase effect. Very natural. The other is hard to describe in words. If I pause a frame and flick between 1080P and upscaled 4K it is almost impossible to pick which is which or what is better. It is that close. However as you play a movie you realize everything just looks so smooth in 4K. No digital effects. Digital is gone. It really looks like film. I think you lose just a tad of sharpness with 4K upscaled as it is blending edges however that slight loss in sharpness is overtaken by the pure beauty of the image. I really don't feel like I have a digital projector anymore. It doesn't look digital.

Long rant. Sorry.

Edit: I found my original screen shots showing the 4K upscale effect. See the staircasing is gone from the logo. So has pixels.



You might find interesting.

Okay.

[Show spoiler]I did this for you guys last night. To show the 4k upscaling results.

Firstly I had to just throw up this pic. That 4K2K 24 in the menu is cool aye.



Right. The easiest thing to show the results of smoothing is white graphics on black background. A bit like subtitles. I like what upscaling does to them.

A lot of members will recognize the Oppo home Menu. Look at those bloody black levels. Gets me every time.

Keep an eye out for the settings symbol far right middle row.



Here it is 4K off. This years pixel structure is so good.



Okay. Very hard to get a photo of the pixel structure. Very close to screen. Look at the jaggies. 1080P mode.



4K upscale is now on. Photo taken as close as possible to the previous position. Note pixel structure completely gone and edges smoothed. Jaggies almost gone. However I think a little softer.



So there you go. 4K upscaling.
That's actually pretty awesome. And I love how barely noticeable the pixel structure is. I'm actually pretty excited now. Just finished ordering all the cables I'd need and new IR 3D glasses.

Ordered the Denon X4000 too, and I'll be ordering the VPL-HW40 tomorrow.

Setup date is already next weekend. Epson was successfully sold, and I'll move the VSX03 upstairs with so it can rejoin my Kuro for another few years.

The Aperion Verus Grand combined with the X4000s XT32 plus the DLP of the Sony 40, I think, will bring the JJ Condo Cinema to a new level of amazingness. Think I've seen all of one movie all month.
- Orbis non Sufficit
================

Sonus Faber Venere - Epik Empire
Epson HC-5030ub - 92" DIY Screen - Emotiva XPA-3
Pioneer Elite VSX-03 - Pioneer Elite DV-48 - Sony S790
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Old Yesterday, 05:08 AM   #2496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
That's actually pretty awesome. And I love how barely noticeable the pixel structure is. I'm actually pretty excited now. Just finished ordering all the cables I'd need and new IR 3D glasses.

Ordered the Denon X4000 too, and I'll be ordering the VPL-HW40 tomorrow.

Setup date is already next weekend. Epson was successfully sold, and I'll move the VSX03 upstairs with so it can rejoin my Kuro for another few years.

The Aperion Verus Grand combined with the X4000s XT32 plus the DLP of the Sony 40, I think, will bring the JJ Condo Cinema to a new level of amazingness. Think I've seen all of one movie all month.
I think you will like the Sony. You should do it is one hell of a projector.
I don't notice pixel structure on DLP, LCOS or DILA. I walked into a store a couple of weeks ago and said to the staff member. LCD projector isn't it. He said yes how did you know that quick? I had noticed the dot pixel structure straight away.

Better pixel fill and better native contrast should keep you very happy.
Source: iPod 160G in Arcam DrDock, 2x Oppo BDP-103D's (Blu-ray, CD, SACD and DVD Audio), PS3 and PS4.
Amplification: Marantz SR7009(Atmos), 2x Marantz MM7055's (10 amps bi-amping 5 channels).
Speakers: (Atmos 5.3.2): 4 x Polk RTiA7's, Polk CSP 1000, 2x Atlantic TLC-8.2, Polk PSW 1200, 2x SVS SB Ultra 13's and triple buttkicker system.
Projection: Dreamvision Yunzi + 3 Tentation Ltd. Ed.
Headgear: Woo WA22 (tube amp), Oppo HA-1 (DAC and amp), Audeze LCD-3.

BLU's FOR SALE
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