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Old 09-26-2013, 09:48 PM   #881
steve1971 steve1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayabusa85 View Post
Give me somebody that wants to race over team orders that should be banned any day. Especially with how Ferrari abuse them. Well before they brought in Kimi who won't be pushed around like Massa. But if you like team orders more than racing Webber had it coming for ignoring orders in the final race with the championship on the line. Plus 9/10 times when Vettel is ignoring them he is risking his own race when they are worried about the car lasting and he is hell bent on fastest lap

As for the 10 grid penalty it is justified. When I first heard they were reprimanded for that I thought it was absurd based on what we saw on TV. But looking at how they did it paints a different picture since the ride along wasn't the issue. The issue was Alonso slamming on his brakes and stopping in a dangerous spot while Webber ran out onto the track with oncoming cars. While the ride along was a nice thing to see much like it was when it was Webber giving Alonso a lift in Germany a few years ago they were too careless with how they did it. Especially when you watch the on board from Hamilton. The cars are still going fast enough in that final trip around the track that stopping in such a stupid place was very dangerous let alone walking out onto the track with oncoming cars. Like Lewis said if he would have swerved the other way or if Webber had been coming from the other side he would have hit him and he was going 60km/h. They did it much better in Germany a few years ago pulling off the side.

Aw come on Hayabusa that was a BS penalty and a lot of people who race in F1 are saying the same thing INCLUDING Hamilton himself. And you saying Ferrari abuse Team Orders is also BS. There is also some "other" teams that do the same thing and get away with it like Red Bull! The only thing I agree with you on is Kimi indeed wont be pushed around by Ferrari but I don't think Massa was pushed around at all. Maybe if he would have helped out a little more by winning races then he wouldn't be in the spot he is in right now.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:39 PM   #882
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Ferrari are in a whole other league with team orders which is why they have got in trouble for how they have used it the most. Why they are the ones that got it banned with that absolute disgrace in 2002 and I will never understand why that ban got lifted. Others have used team orders but not to the extent Ferrari have. And with other teams the team orders can be used for both drivers much like Red Bull were trying to when Vettel was ignoring them. With Ferrari it is all about the #1 driver and their #2 driver being out there for no reason other than to serve that #1 driver.

If you do something stupid that endangers yourself and other drivers then a penalty is more than justified. I have not seen where Hamilton said it shouldn't have been penalized. He said the drive along is something he likes to see but again that isn't why they were punished. He was clearly not happy about what they did. And if Webber hadn't done two other things it would have been a slap on the wrist like it was for Alonso so it is his own fault. But realistically it should have been a penalty for both when they created such a dangerous situation.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:14 AM   #883
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Originally Posted by Hayabusa85 View Post
Give me somebody that wants to race over team orders that should be banned any day. Especially with how Ferrari abuse them. Well before they brought in Kimi who won't be pushed around like Massa. But if you like team orders more than racing Webber had it coming for ignoring orders in the final race with the championship on the line. Plus 9/10 times when Vettel is ignoring them he is risking his own race when they are worried about the car lasting and he is hell bent on fastest lap

As for the 10 grid penalty it is justified. When I first heard they were reprimanded for that I thought it was absurd based on what we saw on TV. But looking at how they did it paints a different picture since the ride along wasn't the issue. The issue was Alonso slamming on his brakes and stopping in a dangerous spot while Webber ran out onto the track with oncoming cars. While the ride along was a nice thing to see much like it was when it was Webber giving Alonso a lift in Germany a few years ago they were too careless with how they did it. Especially when you watch the on board from Hamilton. The cars are still going fast enough in that final trip around the track that stopping in such a stupid place was very dangerous let alone walking out onto the track with oncoming cars. Like Lewis said if he would have swerved the other way or if Webber had been coming from the other side he would have hit him and he was going 60km/h. They did it much better in Germany a few years ago pulling off the side.
Regarding the ride along- I didn't know of any other info to go along with it, so I was unaware of how Alonso picked him up. Sounds a bit dangerous, but still a classy move by Alonso.

The race where Vettel was told to stay behind webber earlier this year, and the fact that he didn't....shows a lack of cooperation to his whole team and lack of respect. I'm sorry but Vettel is a good driver in the BEST car. But he is not the BEST driver. He has shown his immaturity and that raises a few eyebrows. Like I said, put Kimi, Alonso, or Lewis in the RB9 and all them will take 1st place in almost every race....without the immaturity that follows Vettel.
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:22 AM   #884
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Just a reminder to my fellow Americans that Rush is out in theaters this week. I really enjoyed it
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:16 PM   #885
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Can anyone find a video of Hamilton's on board showing Webber walking to get to Alonso's car? FIA are so fast to shut down people's stuff.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:33 PM   #886
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Just a reminder to my fellow Americans that Rush is out in theaters this week. I really enjoyed it
I really want to see it
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Old 10-05-2013, 01:18 PM   #887
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All this technical talk of RBR's alleged (but still legal) torque modulation is quite fascinating. It also speaks to Vettel who understands how the car works much better than Mark does and exploits it performance fully. There's also an article (from James Allen I think) about how it's easy to say anyone could win a Red Bull, but the work involved to understand how everything in the RBR works might be beyond most drivers including Hamilton (sadly I can't remember where that article is).

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Old 10-05-2013, 08:24 PM   #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatter View Post
All this technical talk of RBR's alleged (but still legal) torque modulation is quite fascinating. It also speaks to Vettel who understands how the car works much better than Mark does and exploits it performance fully. There's also an article (from James Allen I think) about how it's easy to say anyone could win a Red Bull, but the work involved to understand how everything in the RBR works might be beyond most drivers including Hamilton (sadly I can't remember where that article is).

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...cret-revealed/
Vettel won poll again for tomorrows race Hatter. This kid is unreal!
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:35 AM   #889
Hayabusa85 Hayabusa85 is offline
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Well that wasn't awkward between Kimi and Romain at all. Didn't help that Romain was being a complete tool after the race with his comments to Vettel (Well at least what I think he was saying..... had a hard time understanding him) and then about Kimi getting lucky. Nice to see a good drive from who should have been in the McLaren this season and if they are smart will be next season despite their denial of the rumors they are talking with him. Disgraceful job by Mercedes keeping Hamilton out like they did and dropping him down the grid. Even without them being able to predict whatever the hell happened to Rosberg they should have had Hamilton in well before then. Although his radio messages were pretty entertaining at least

A win in Japan with Alonso 9th or lower and Vettel clinches. Can't imagine it isn't locked up by the end of the month in India unless Webber is contagious
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:37 PM   #890
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Well that wasn't awkward between Kimi and Romain at all. Didn't help that Romain was being a complete tool after the race with his comments to Vettel (Well at least what I think he was saying..... had a hard time understanding him) and then about Kimi getting lucky. Nice to see a good drive from who should have been in the McLaren this season and if they are smart will be next season despite their denial of the rumors they are talking with him. Disgraceful job by Mercedes keeping Hamilton out like they did and dropping him down the grid. Even without them being able to predict whatever the hell happened to Rosberg they should have had Hamilton in well before then. Although his radio messages were pretty entertaining at least

A win in Japan with Alonso 9th or lower and Vettel clinches. Can't imagine it isn't locked up by the end of the month in India unless Webber is contagious
McLaren is the better destination in my opinion. A lot of people say Lotus but I'd hate to sign with a company not knowing if I'm going to get paid on time. McLaren should finally rebound next year.
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:17 AM   #891
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Just remembered the Japanese Grand Prix starts here in a few hours - may have to give it a watch if I'm still up as feel I've driven some semblance of it many times while playing Real Racing 3 .
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:46 AM   #892
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Stupid Vettel and stupid red bull team. That was Mark Webber's race to win. But the team purposely pit him too early and too often. They screwed him over just so Vettel could win another race. I'm really sick of the red bull team and Vettel. I just wish Mark could have won today. And of course Vettel's car slashed Lewis' car's tire, so he had to retire very early. Lewis has the worst luck lately. *sigh*
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:46 AM   #893
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Stupid Vettel and stupid red bull team. That was Mark Webber's race to win. But the team purposely pit him too early and too often. They screwed him over just so Vettel could win another race. I'm really sick of the red bull team and Vettel. I just wish Mark could have won today. And of course Vettel's car slashed Lewis' car's tire, so he had to retire very early. Lewis has the worst luck lately. *sigh*
Yeah because teams never use different strategies and they had no reason to want Webber to three stop (Like a fair bit of teams did) after recent races. That pit stop you are whining about came when Vettel had gained two seconds on Webber over the last few laps and Webber was suffering a fair bit of lock ups. Seems like a logical reason to pit to me. They don't bring him in there and Vettel still has him while he is put in danger of not even getting on the podium if they were even more insane to try and run him as long as Vettel. Oh and in case you missed it during your rage while they were "screwing" Webber that strategy is what allowed him to jump Grosjean. Odd way to screw somebody.

Not to mention Webber also had plenty of laps to catch Vettel on a new set of faster tyres and he couldn't even get around Grosjean until he made an error behind traffic. He also didn't do enough when he had jumped Grosjean to increase the gap to come out in a better spot. Had he not failed to pass Grosjean on his first attempt he would have been six seconds back of Vettel with six laps to go on faster and fresher tyres. His failure to get around Grosjean was his downfall not a different strategy that was better than keeping him out there for a long stint. So sorry it wasn't his day to defeat a superior driver in top form on his best track and your blind Vettel hate is showing again. You probably think he won that pole too and Vettel not having KERS was made up to downplay Webber getting pole don't you?

Screwing drivers is saved for teams that don't pay their driver and when he decides to leave them for obvious reasons pretty much abandon him in the remaining races.

Anyway......................

Other than the start which isn't like Vettel another textbook race and was nice getting to see more of his mastery than usual without the pole to flag victory. Even if the end result was still another win with a good gap.

Lewis used up his luck being the last person to win that wasn't Vettel way back in July I guess.

Also happy to see another pretty good showing from Hulk. Really hope his height doesn't screw him out of a seat next season. He is far more talented than the likes of Perez. Seems to do well in the closing races of the season since he did this last year too.

Also does anybody know why Red Bull took that guy from Lotus up with them and have him toss on a Red Bull shirt? Seemed odd and awkward.

--------------------------------------

And of course onto the other recent news....

Sad that after all this time Maria died from injuries related to her crash with Murussia. Figured she was in the clear by now and didn't show signs of being in poor health. Always seemed to be in good spirits despite having lost her eye and career. Her positive spirit after that crash can serve as a good example to other drivers no matter if male or female. R.I.P. Maria.
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:45 PM   #894
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Anyway people want to look at it Webber got screwed by his own team! It pisses me off so I wont go into it any further. But at least Fernando prevented Vettel from capturing the title this weekend and I hope he does until the very last race. Cant wait until next year when the Ice Man joins Ferrari and then he and Fernando can tear the track up!!! Lastly what's all this about Massa ignoring team order's? He say's he did and if true then it don't surprise me because he simply don't care being he will no longer be with Ferrari next year anyway. And thank god for that!
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:55 PM   #895
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Yeah because teams never use different strategies and they had no reason to want Webber to three stop (Like a fair bit of teams did) after recent races. That pit stop you are whining about came when Vettel had gained two seconds on Webber over the last few laps and Webber was suffering a fair bit of lock ups. Seems like a logical reason to pit to me. They don't bring him in there and Vettel still has him while he is put in danger of not even getting on the podium if they were even more insane to try and run him as long as Vettel. Oh and in case you missed it during your rage while they were "screwing" Webber that strategy is what allowed him to jump Grosjean. Odd way to screw somebody.

Not to mention Webber also had plenty of laps to catch Vettel on a new set of faster tyres and he couldn't even get around Grosjean until he made an error behind traffic. He also didn't do enough when he had jumped Grosjean to increase the gap to come out in a better spot. Had he not failed to pass Grosjean on his first attempt he would have been six seconds back of Vettel with six laps to go on faster and fresher tyres. His failure to get around Grosjean was his downfall not a different strategy that was better than keeping him out there for a long stint. So sorry it wasn't his day to defeat a superior driver in top form on his best track and your blind Vettel hate is showing again. You probably think he won that pole too and Vettel not having KERS was made up to downplay Webber getting pole don't you?

Screwing drivers is saved for teams that don't pay their driver and when he decides to leave them for obvious reasons pretty much abandon him in the remaining races.

Anyway......................

Other than the start which isn't like Vettel another textbook race and was nice getting to see more of his mastery than usual without the pole to flag victory. Even if the end result was still another win with a good gap.

Lewis used up his luck being the last person to win that wasn't Vettel way back in July I guess.

Also happy to see another pretty good showing from Hulk. Really hope his height doesn't screw him out of a seat next season. He is far more talented than the likes of Perez. Seems to do well in the closing races of the season since he did this last year too.

Also does anybody know why Red Bull took that guy from Lotus up with them and have him toss on a Red Bull shirt? Seemed odd and awkward.

--------------------------------------

And of course onto the other recent news....

Sad that after all this time Maria died from injuries related to her crash with Murussia. Figured she was in the clear by now and didn't show signs of being in poor health. Always seemed to be in good spirits despite having lost her eye and career. Her positive spirit after that crash can serve as a good example to other drivers no matter if male or female. R.I.P. Maria.
You're coming at me as if I've personally pissed you off time and time again with my "rants" on here. I've voiced my humble opinion regarding F1 races this year just a handful of times on this forum. Your clear immaturity and disrespect towards other peoples' opinions on here doesn't send an inviting message towards others. Instead of having a grown up, logical debate about the subject, you choose to take the high road and bash someone's opinions and thoughts. So to you, I was clearly "whining, raging, and hating". God forbid someone doesn't like what a team does or how they go about their driver plans. I forgot about the rule in here that says everyone has to love Vettel and every little thing he does. Next time I see him on tv, I'll bow down to him. Thanks for keeping the maturity level high in here. You're right, and everyone else is wrong.
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:01 PM   #896
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Anyway people want to look at it Webber got screwed by his own team! It pisses me off so I wont go into it any further. But at least Fernando prevented Vettel from capturing the title this weekend and I hope he does until the very last race. Cant wait until next year when the Ice Man joins Ferrari and then he and Fernando can tear the track up!!! Lastly what's all this about Massa ignoring team order's? He say's he did and if true then it don't surprise me because he simply don't care being he will no longer be with Ferrari next year anyway. And thank god for that!
I'm glad you saw it the same way I did. It was beyond clear that the team sacrificed Webber just so Vettel could win another race. Even the race announcers saw that and mentioned it. Vettel is a very good driver, but I don't respect him after seeing what he did early on this season disobeying orders from the team.

Regarding fernando, I agree. He was able to have a good enough race to postpone Vettel from clinching. I hope Alonso keeps that pressure on for every race until the end. And yes, next year will be very interesting to see how Ferrari can compete. They should be a serious force to compete against.
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Old 10-13-2013, 11:23 PM   #897
Hayabusa85 Hayabusa85 is offline
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You're coming at me as if I've personally pissed you off time and time again with my "rants" on here. I've voiced my humble opinion regarding F1 races this year just a handful of times on this forum. Your clear immaturity and disrespect towards other peoples' opinions on here doesn't send an inviting message towards others. Instead of having a grown up, logical debate about the subject, you choose to take the high road and bash someone's opinions and thoughts. So to you, I was clearly "whining, raging, and hating". God forbid someone doesn't like what a team does or how they go about their driver plans. I forgot about the rule in here that says everyone has to love Vettel and every little thing he does. Next time I see him on tv, I'll bow down to him. Thanks for keeping the maturity level high in here. You're right, and everyone else is wrong.
It is immature to post some blind hate in a thread and get mad when somebody calls you out on it while not even debating the points they posted. I posted points you could have easily had a mature debate about and instead you just decided to call me immature and ignore the points. All I have seen you do time after time is post blind Vettel hate and not a humble opinion about any race. Sorry I don't view that as inviting or mature.

What Red Bull did is called undercutting and was done to get around Grosjean. Without it Grosjean had a good chance of winning while Webber was on pace for third. But instead they used the undercut to perfection and outplayed Lotus getting the top two spots they were not on pace for after the first stint. Their strategy allowed them to get the best result they could have after the poor start and first stint from both drivers.

So if you want to have a mature debate about the race then by all means bring on the mature debate. But don't bother if you are just going to reply with more of your blind hate instead of taking a proper look at what Red Bull did. You don't have to agree which I never suggested you had to but don't just post, "OMG RED BULL SCREWED MARK AND VETTEL IS THE DEVIL". Come up with some actual logic and make points as to why that is the case. That is all I want since I like proper debates and not somebody just posting blind hate and wrecking a thread with their hyperbole. I don't like Ferrari at all because of how much they use team orders but I don't let that blind me into posting nothing but Alonso bashing. No in fact I consider Alonso the second best driver in F1 and don't let myself get blinded to that because he drives on a team I despise. So I am sure you can try to do the same.

Anyway, race points I would love for you to debate...........
  • When Webber struggled to pass Grosjean on faster and fresher tyres at the end of the race how was he going to pass him using the same strategy as Grosjean without the undercut? Especially when the Lotus manages the tyres better.
  • Webber's setup has more top end speed to make overtaking easier while Vettel's setup is about downforce and managing the tyres better. Who did it make more sense to undercut Grosjean with?
  • When Webber had lost two seconds to Vettel over a few laps before the early pit and was showing more signs tyre wear how was he going to hold him off if they had the same stint? Again knowing that Vettel also has a setup designed to manage the tyres better than Webber allowing for longer stints.
  • Grosjean talked about a strategy they had in Korea to pit early themselves knowing they have better tyre management to prevent the Red Bull undercut before the safety car spoiled that. Would either Red Bull pass him if they did that this weekend?
  • With two different strategies Grosjean had to cover both drivers which he doesn't have to do if they use the same strategy. Does that make it harder or easier on him?
  • If Webber wouldn't have failed to get around Grosjean like Vettel did with ease would he have really had no chance to catch Vettel? Again he botched the pass with six laps to go when there was a six second gap to Vettel then got stuck behind Grosjean. Once he finally did get around Grosjean due to the error Grosjean made Webber gained two seconds on Vettel over one lap with his newer and faster tyres. So if he doesn't botch the chicane and takes Grosjean on the first attempt what does the math add up to? Six laps, six second gap, two seconds a lap faster, twelve seconds gained...... a Webber win. So is there really enough evidence to suggest what Red Bull did gave Webber no chance at all and was a screw job?
  • Vettel was clearly not as calm at the end of the race complaining about the blue flags as he has had the privilege of being as of late. Would he have been stressing that if he honestly thought Webber had no chance of catching him?

And not specifically related to this race but since you bring it up every chance you get.
  • Why do you have an issue with Vettel ignoring team orders this season and don't have problems with Webber doing it last season? Webber almost took Vettel out of the final race ignoring team orders when Vettel was in a race for the championship. Vettel did it in a race with very little impact on the championship and obviously wanted to send a message to Webber after what he pulled.
  • You are a big Ferrari fan why do you even feel Webber should have had team orders in his favor? Do you see Ferrari giving team orders to Alonso to benefit Massa? When Webber was slowing down Vettel earlier in that race and allowing the Mercedes drivers to close in on both of them do you think Ferrari would have stood for that? Or would they have told Massa to get the hell out of Alonso's way?
  • Why do you even like team orders? Would you not rather see drivers race each other than be told to stop racing? The best thing about Kimi going to Ferrari is that it should kill their use of team orders and we can actually see the Ferrari's race each other. Don't remember the last time we got to see that.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:57 AM   #898
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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Originally Posted by Hayabusa85 View Post
It is immature to post some blind hate in a thread and get mad when somebody calls you out on it while not even debating the points they posted. I posted points you could have easily had a mature debate about and instead you just decided to call me immature and ignore the points. All I have seen you do time after time is post blind Vettel hate and not a humble opinion about any race. Sorry I don't view that as inviting or mature.

What Red Bull did is called undercutting and was done to get around Grosjean. Without it Grosjean had a good chance of winning while Webber was on pace for third. But instead they used the undercut to perfection and outplayed Lotus getting the top two spots they were not on pace for after the first stint. Their strategy allowed them to get the best result they could have after the poor start and first stint from both drivers.

So if you want to have a mature debate about the race then by all means bring on the mature debate. But don't bother if you are just going to reply with more of your blind hate instead of taking a proper look at what Red Bull did. You don't have to agree which I never suggested you had to but don't just post, "OMG RED BULL SCREWED MARK AND VETTEL IS THE DEVIL". Come up with some actual logic and make points as to why that is the case. That is all I want since I like proper debates and not somebody just posting blind hate and wrecking a thread with their hyperbole. I don't like Ferrari at all because of how much they use team orders but I don't let that blind me into posting nothing but Alonso bashing. No in fact I consider Alonso the second best driver in F1 and don't let myself get blinded to that because he drives on a team I despise. So I am sure you can try to do the same.

Anyway, race points I would love for you to debate...........
  • When Webber struggled to pass Grosjean on faster and fresher tyres at the end of the race how was he going to pass him using the same strategy as Grosjean without the undercut? Especially when the Lotus manages the tyres better.
  • Webber's setup has more top end speed to make overtaking easier while Vettel's setup is about downforce and managing the tyres better. Who did it make more sense to undercut Grosjean with?
  • When Webber had lost two seconds to Vettel over a few laps before the early pit and was showing more signs tyre wear how was he going to hold him off if they had the same stint? Again knowing that Vettel also has a setup designed to manage the tyres better than Webber allowing for longer stints.
  • Grosjean talked about a strategy they had in Korea to pit early themselves knowing they have better tyre management to prevent the Red Bull undercut before the safety car spoiled that. Would either Red Bull pass him if they did that this weekend?
  • With two different strategies Grosjean had to cover both drivers which he doesn't have to do if they use the same strategy. Does that make it harder or easier on him?
  • If Webber wouldn't have failed to get around Grosjean like Vettel did with ease would he have really had no chance to catch Vettel? Again he botched the pass with six laps to go when there was a six second gap to Vettel then got stuck behind Grosjean. Once he finally did get around Grosjean due to the error Grosjean made Webber gained two seconds on Vettel over one lap with his newer and faster tyres. So if he doesn't botch the chicane and takes Grosjean on the first attempt what does the math add up to? Six laps, six second gap, two seconds a lap faster, twelve seconds gained...... a Webber win. So is there really enough evidence to suggest what Red Bull did gave Webber no chance at all?
  • Vettel was clearly not as calm at the end of the race complaining about the blue flags as he has had the privilege of being as of late. Would he have been stressing that if he honestly thought Webber had no chance of catching him?

And not specifically related to this race but since you bring it up every chance you get.
  • Why do you have an issue with Vettel ignoring team orders this season and don't have problems with Webber doing it last season? Webber almost took Vettel out of the final race ignoring team orders when Vettel was in a race for the championship. Vettel did it in a race with very little impact on the championship and obviously wanted to send a message to Webber after what he pulled.
  • You are a big Ferrari fan why do you even feel Webber should have had team orders in his favor? Do you see Ferrari giving team orders to Alonso to benefit Massa? When Webber was slowing down Vettel earlier in that race and allowing the Mercedes drivers to close in on both of them do you think Ferrari would have stood for that? Or would they have told Massa to get the hell out of Alonso's way?
  • Why do you even like team orders? Would you not rather see drivers race each other than be told to stop racing? The best thing about Kimi going to Ferrari is that it should kill their use of team orders and we can actually see the Ferrari's race each other. Don't remember the last time we got to see that.
First off, this is my first season watching F1. I'm relatively new to the sport but have soaked up a good amount of information since I started watching. I'm nowhere near as knowledgable as you to the sport, since you've seem to have been watching F1 for years. I haven't watched or seen any races prior to the 2013 season, so I'm unaware of what any driver did to another in the past. (Aka webber/Vettel). BUT, that doesn't mean that I don't have my own opinions and have all the right to explain my opinions on here.

So, going back all the way to the second or third race this year (I can't remember exactly which one) where Vettel was told to hold second place behind webber so they could finish one/two, Vettel completely ignored his boss' orders and pulled an a-hole move on webber. To me, that's disrespectful to the team. I understand thr F1 is an individual sport but also a team sport. I get it. But that was the start of my distaste for Vettel. And to add to that, last night when Vettel was nearly crying to his team on the radio because of some slower cars in front of him. Give me a break. He clearly had the race won at that point.

I never said I was a ferrari fan. In fact, I've never said I was a fan of any team. I'm a fan of certain drivers. My favorites are Hamilton, Kimi, and Alonso. I've also rooted for webber because he seems to be the underdog on that team. Plus with 2013 being his last year, I wanted him to win some races. It's my perogative to root for who I want to root for, without having to explain myself. So you may look at my distaste for Vettel as blind hate, but it's not. I have my reasons.

Honestly, I would have been happy if Grosean had won this race. I'm a fan of the sport, so I like to see more than one guy win races. In regard to webber not being able to pass up Grosean, I looked at it in a variety of reasons. One, Grosean is a hell of a driver and was putting up a good fight by not allow webber to pass him. Two, Suzuka doesn't allow for many areas to overtake. The only opportunities webber had to overtake was on the DRS start/finish straight. For those 4 or 5 laps where webber was trying to overtake but didn't succeed was due to that relatively short distance where DRS actually is being used. He didn't have much track to work with and you could see Romain blocking him on one of Webber's tries. So plainly, it was really hard to get into that 2nd spot. Third, on one of Webber's tries in passing him, his DRS wasn't working. His wing didn't open up.

I never said Vettel was the devil, so stop putting words into my mouth.

Team orders are there for a reason, for the greater benefit of the team. When I see drivers not following orders, I look at that as immaturity and pure stubbornness. It would be the same if ferrari told Massa to let Alonso by because he was faster, but Massa not executing those orders and holding Alonso up. That's a detriment to the team causes tension between the drivers of the same team, when the whole point of being on the same team is to work for the greater good. Accidents and crashes result from being pigheaded.

Sorry I can't make as well thought out points and well thought out statements and questions as you, but that's simply due to the fact that you've been following the sport longer than I have. So take my opinions and thoughts as what they are and let it be. But I have all the right in this free country to say what I darn please. I hope Lewis, Kimi, or Alonso win the next 4 races. If you don't like it, tough.

P.s. Anyone who knows F1 can't pretend that Adrian Newey doesn't have a big hand into RB's success on the track. Put Kimi, Lewis, or Alonso into the RB9 and they'd all finish first. In my opinion, they're all better drivers than vettel. Newey has worked magic into that chassis.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:32 AM   #899
Hayabusa85 Hayabusa85 is offline
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See that is more like it. A good debate can be had Sorry if I came across as harsh I just hate when people post stuff without backing it up or sharing more in depth why they feel that way. Especially when making bold claims.

Quote:
First off, this is my first season watching F1. I'm relatively new to the sport but have soaked up a good amount of information since I started watching. I'm nowhere near as knowledgable as you to the sport, since you've seem to have been watching F1 for years. I haven't watched or seen any races prior to the 2013 season, so I'm unaware of what any driver did to another in the past. (Aka webber/Vettel). BUT, that doesn't mean that I don't have my own opinions and have all the right to explain my opinions on here.
Fair enough. To me Webber had it coming after the stunt he pulled but understandable that somebody who didn't see what Webber did in that race can't hold that against him too. Sure you can argue two wrongs don't make a right but I don't feel the ban should have been lifted on team orders so I feel neither case should have been an issue. Which is why I don't fault Vettel for sending a message. They both should have raced each other both times. Which is why I also don't have an issue with them not telling Webber to get out of the way when he slowed down Vettel in that very race. Or the fact that Webber has never helped Seb over multiple seasons despite admitting he knows he is their #2 driver. I have less respect for Vettel telling them to get Webber out of his way than I do him ignoring the team orders because I hate team orders so much. I wish Rosberg would have ignored orders like Vettel did and not gave up the spot to Hamilton too personally. And I am not a Rosberg fan at all so my reasons are not just pro-Vettel. They are anti-team orders. And to me nobody wants to race more than Vettel most races which is why I like him so much. I would rather see him DNF when he has a lead trying to set fastest lap and ignoring the team than listening to them to boringly escort the car to the checkered flag and get the 25 points.

Quote:
So, going back all the way to the second or third race this year (I can't remember exactly which one) where Vettel was told to hold second place behind webber so they could finish one/two, Vettel completely ignored his boss' orders and pulled an a-hole move on webber. To me, that's disrespectful to the team. I understand thr F1 is an individual sport but also a team sport. I get it. But that was the start of my distaste for Vettel. And to add to that, last night when Vettel was nearly crying to his team on the radio because of some slower cars in front of him. Give me a break. He clearly had the race won at that point.
There was time at that point for Webber to catch him still if he got around Grosjean soon enough. So I can understand Vettel being concerned. Usually he does have it locked up and doesn't need to worry which is why he doesn't care too much. Even then them battling could easily take him out. Especially when you start to get around the likes of Perez and Maldonado that are a bit careless to say the least. But the cars were ignoring blue flags so even if he had a 10 lap lead he would have a valid protest. The problem is the guys up top are so fast that they often tend to lap drivers battling for points. And obviously you don't want to make a mistake in a close battle that not only allows the faster driver around you but the person you are battling for points taking advantage of you slowing too.

Quote:
I never said I was a ferrari fan. In fact, I've never said I was a fan of any team. I'm a fan of certain drivers. My favorites are Hamilton, Kimi, and Alonso. I've also rooted for webber because he seems to be the underdog on that team. Plus with 2013 being his last year, I wanted him to win some races. It's my perogative to root for who I want to root for, without having to explain myself. So you may look at my distaste for Vettel as blind hate, but it's not. I have my reasons.
Fair enough you just seemed to like Ferrari based on a couple of posts.

And while nobody is holding a gun to your head to explain yourself you have to realize when you make comments about how Vettel isn't as good as other drivers or Webber got screwed then you have to be prepared to get challenged on that. Not because somebody is being immature but because you are making bold claims. I mean Steve agreed that Webber got screwed but all the same disagreed with you claiming the likes of Hamilton should be considered better than Vettel which he disputed more than I did even. So it won't always just be me and you can't be happy one person agrees with you while dismissing somebody else as immature when they were debating your bold claim.

And I can understand people wanting Webber to win one last race. Everybody likes the feel good story. Just like it would have been nice to see Schumi get one last checkered flag. But at the end of the day he needs to earn it. He wasn't on pace to earn it today and he wasn't on pace to earn it earlier in the season without the attempted team orders.

I won't lose sleep over him not winning another race though since I don't respect him very much. Short of his bromance with Alonso he has been very disrespectful with comments about many other drivers including Seb (DUH!), Kimi etc. And tends to be a huge crybaby. You can talk maturity with Vettel but the comments Webber has made about other drivers and some of his actions over the years have been much more immature to me.


His crowning achievement IMO.

Quote:
Honestly, I would have been happy if Grosean had won this race. I'm a fan of the sport, so I like to see more than one guy win races. In regard to webber not being able to pass up Grosean, I looked at it in a variety of reasons. One, Grosean is a hell of a driver and was putting up a good fight by not allow webber to pass him. Two, Suzuka doesn't allow for many areas to overtake. The only opportunities webber had to overtake was on the DRS start/finish straight. For those 4 or 5 laps where webber was trying to overtake but didn't succeed was due to that relatively short distance where DRS actually is being used. He didn't have much track to work with and you could see Romain blocking him on one of Webber's tries. So plainly, it was really hard to get into that 2nd spot. Third, on one of Webber's tries in passing him, his DRS wasn't working. His wing didn't open up.
Webber should have easily taken Grosjean just like Vettel made it look like he could have done it blindfolded. Especially when Webber has the setup more geared toward overtaking since he has to overtake pretty much all the time. It got harder after Webber botched the first pass he should have easily had because the tyre advantage slips away the longer you fail to pass and end up in the dirty air. But Webber didn't get the traction down in the chicane and blew his best spot to pass not longer after his pit.

And I would have no problem with Grosjean or even Webber winning it either. I just don't like the claims that Webber was screwed when it was actually a near perfect use of undercutting. Webber could have won and the strategy got Red Bull the top two spots when they were not on pace for that. The strategy didn't pay off for Webber due to him not passing Grosjean but at the same time he wasn't on pace to win regardless so second was a good result.

But let's not go too overboard calling Grosjean a hell of a driver yet. He is getting better but he has also benefited from the problems between Kimi and Lotus as of late. This is still the same guy that Webber called a first lap nutcase last season (In that case Webber was accurate with his disrespect of another driver) and had as bad a rep as Maldonado. So let's give it another season to make sure he really has matured into a less reckless driver that can put together some good showings. I do hope this is the Grosjean we will see going forward though. But there was a very, very, very brief window where Maldonado looked like he had got away from destruction derby mode too. So I am not ready yet and have still had my finger on the panic button when he has been near drivers I like.

Quote:
I never said Vettel was the devil, so top putting words into my mouth.
Well you sure don't think he is an angel

Quote:
Team orders are there for a reason, for the greater benefit of the team. When I see drivers not following orders, I look at that as immaturity and pure stubbornness. It would be the same if ferrari told Massa to let Alonso by because he was faster, but Massa not executing those orders and holding Alonso up. That's a detriment to the team causes tension between the drivers of the same team, when the whole point of being on the same team is to work for the greater good. Accidents and crashes result from being pigheaded.
Team orders have been banned before for a reason. The ban never should have been lifted. It is bad for the sport. Massa has often qualified better than Alonso and had a good race pace only to be told to give Alonso more easy points. It makes me sick. Ferrari have the worst rep by far for how they use it which is why I have the biggest problem with them. As somebody new to F1 you were not watching back in 2001.


Much like how you may never be able to forgive Vettel for him ignoring team orders I can never forgive Ferrari for that. Or accept team orders. That is by far one of the darkest moments in F1 history to me and was the reason team orders were banned the first time. Team orders create tension between drivers no matter if they are followed or not.

And if you are not familiar with who the guy giving that order is he is Jean Todt. He is now the president of the FIA. No shocker why the team order ban got lifted in 2010 after he took over at the end of 2009. The guy is a cancer to the sport.

I think Senna said it best....

“We are competing to win, and if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver.”

Going back to the Webber and Vettel incident you can say Vettel just wanted to be a racing driver still!

Can you imagine something like that in other sports? Somebody has an amazing kickoff return in the NFL from their endzone and get a message in their helmet to step out at the 1 yard line to let their RB get a touchdown instead. It is a disgusting display.

Quote:
Sorry I can't make as well thought out points and well thought out statements and questions as you, but that's simply due to the fact that you've been following the sport longer than I have. So take my opinions and thoughts as what they are and let it be. But I have all the right in this free country to say what I darn please. I hope Lewis, Kimi, or Alonso win the next 4 races. If you don't like it, tough.
Better Kimi than the other two since I love him but Vettel is still taking the championship in India so doesn't matter really Well other than his pursuit of career records which I will want him to add to

Quote:
P.s. Anyone who knows F1 can't pretend that Adrian Newey doesn't have a big hand into RB's success on the track. Put Kimi, Lewis, or Alonso into the RB9 and they'd all finish first. In my opinion, they're all better drivers than vettel. Newey has worked magic into that chassis.
I don't argue that Newey isn't the best engineer but I do argue that he alone is why Vettel can win. If it was all the car Webber would be more competitive. The best car only takes you so far if you are not a driver with the ability of a Vettel or Schumacher. Especially the Red Bull which has a reputation of being one of the more difficult cars to drive. And the top teams don't have bad cars short of McLaren if they can even still be considered a top team after this disaster So any of the top teams can compete. They just have to get it right and that is their fault when they don't short of somebody causing a collision with them.

I would also say the Red Bull was not the best in 2010 or 2012. The Red Bull was a mess early last year and in 2010 Vettel got his first lead of the season in the very last race. Two of the four seasons have been blowouts and two of the four have come down to the final race. So yeah you can make a case for the car in 2011 and 2013 but a dominant car doesn't need the final race to clinch in the other two. There is also a reason he became the youngest driver to win a race ever in the Toro Rosso. The only driver that has ever won a race for them. That has nothing to do with the car.

At the end of the day when it comes to arguing who is better it is pointless. You can have your opinion sure but why try to argue it when there is no actual way to establish if Kimi, Lewis or Alonso is better than Vettel? When it comes down to it the only facts are the numbers. And the only one with the numbers to prove he is better is Vettel. Especially when the only one even close to Vettel out of those three is Alonso in his career numbers. Kimi and Lewis really have not done all that much. And even then Vettel is going flying ahead of Alonso in the career numbers and it is now the biggest names he is gunning for in the likes of Schumi, Senna, Prost, Fangio etc. And to be doing so when he is not that much older than the likes of Chilton who are just starting their careers is insane to me. When it comes to opinions I have some too I know it is best to not post since at times it is best to not open cans of worms like that and argue it. Sometime you just don't go there

So when all is said and done anything else is a theory. You can debate theories until you turn blue but where will it ever get you? The only way to ever prove something like that is for F1 to switch to one car make for all which would never happen and would be terrible. It is the case with Vettel, it was the case with Schumi, it was the case with other former champions and it will be the case with future champions when Vettel lets somebody else win.

We are both fans of the Lakeshow so I know you are well aware of how people try to discredit their championships and Kobe is basically the Vettel of the NBA. So I am sure you can understand where frustration can come from people trying to discredit stuff with some pretty bold claims without backing up said claims
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Last edited by Hayabusa85; 10-14-2013 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:45 PM   #900
Hayabusa85 Hayabusa85 is offline
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Grosjean starting to grow on me and as I said in another post hope this is the Grosjean we will always see from now on. Will be such a shame if he goes back to being a careless driver now that he has shown this potential with Lotus focused on him. Would have liked to see Massa get on the podium though. Always nice when Alonso is out of the picture and we actually get to see Massa be a F1 driver instead of a pylon for Alonso who loses momentum to the rest of the field in the process.

Think that is the first time I have ever heard a driver be told not to drink. Seems like a pretty ridiculous way of maintaining the car and I am sure was just the Webber problem sending them into full paranoia mode. The message telling him to not even think about trying to set fastest lap when Hulk went out on the options was great. But not as great as the message saying Kimi was going to shatter his lap time

Still some things to cheer on. First will be cheering for Mercedes to take 2nd in the CC now which is shaping up to be a close one. And hoping Vettel can top his previous best of 11 wins in a season. And if he wins all three his best points finish. Three wins would also tie the most wins in a season record with Schumi
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