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Old 08-09-2014, 09:02 PM   #1181
GuruAskew GuruAskew is offline
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He made two minor and undeniable changes. Then the splitting itself gave the overall film a minimum if 40-50 minutes of extra breathing room compares to the maximum 200 or so minutes a single theatrically-released film would have hit.

I don't think it's any great controversy or debate that the film was split into two as opposed to being cut down into a single film so I'm not exactly sure where you're going.

The real changes and compromises would have come with the phantom single film that luckily only stands as an interesting "what if?" and nothing more. But the fact of the matter is, there's no evidence whatsoever that the combined 4 hour runtime did anything but allow Tarantino to better present Kill Bill as-conceived.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:21 PM   #1182
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Originally Posted by GuruAskew View Post
He made two minor and undeniable changes. Then the splitting itself gave the overall film a minimum if 40-50 minutes of extra breathing room compares to the maximum 200 or so minutes a single theatrically-released film would have hit.

I don't think it's any great controversy or debate that the film was split into two as opposed to being cut down into a single film so I'm not exactly sure where you're going.

The real changes and compromises would have come with the phantom single film that luckily only stands as an interesting "what if?" and nothing more. But the fact of the matter is, there's no evidence whatsoever that the combined 4 hour runtime did anything but allow Tarantino to better present Kill Bill as-conceived.
What I'm saying is mashing Vol 1 and Vol 2 together, removing Vol 1's end credits and extending the anime sequence does not make the film suddenly the originally intended single volume experience. It's just a patch on what we got already.

It would be more interesting to me if he and an editor sat down and reedited the film to turn it into what a single movie would have really ended up being, which is not Vol 1 + Vol 2. Decisions were made during filming and especially during editing that would not have been made if it were going to be one release. So this idea that Vol 1 + Vol 2 is the holy grail "whole bloody affair" is kind of silly and naive, in my opinion.

Assuming it had new extras and the expanded anime I would buy a WBA release that was basically just the two volumes mashed together. That would be nice to have. However if you really want me to get excited about seeing the film as it could have been were it not split, I think a reedit would have to occur.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:25 PM   #1183
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Originally Posted by StingingVelvet View Post
What I'm saying is mashing Vol 1 and Vol 2 together, removing Vol 1's end credits and extending the anime sequence does not make the film suddenly the originally intended single volume experience. It's just a patch on what we got already.

It would be more interesting to me if he and an editor sat down and reedited the film to turn it into what a single movie would have really ended up being, which is not Vol 1 + Vol 2. Decisions were made during filming and especially during editing that would not have been made if it were going to be one release. So this idea that Vol 1 + Vol 2 is the holy grail "whole bloody affair" is kind of silly and naive, in my opinion.

Assuming it had new extras and the expanded anime I would buy a WBA release that was basically just the two volumes mashed together. That would be nice to have. However if you really want me to get excited about seeing the film as it could have been were it not split, I think a reedit would have to occur.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:27 PM   #1184
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Originally Posted by riddlerfiddler View Post
You should do some fact-checking yourself. Tolkien wrote it as one story, one book. The main reason it was divided up into three separate volumes was because of the paper shortages during the war and the ability to keep the cost down. Just because many people view the original publication as a trilogy, it is still one book.

As for the "books" within the books, those amount to nothing more than denoting a "part" in most books. It's essentially a point in the story where the story changes. By your logic, it should've been six books instead of three.
Well, we're ... ... so I won't continue this, but you and the other fella are simply ... incorrect - as follows:

1) The story (and I never said it wasn't one story, although it's actually a connected thread of many stories) was originally written for his kids and sent to them as a series of stories via letters. Over the years, Tolkien applied his professorial talents and wove the tale together adding his love of language, etc., making the final work far more complex than The Hobbit which preceded it (1930-1932). It was written in stages over at least a 12-year period. The entire work, much of which was published in The Silmarillion (rejected as a follow-up to The Hobbit), actually has parts and ideas/sketches dating from as early as 1917.

2) The point is, TLOTR was not some book written on a schedule like some writers produce one book a year based on character/s they've created, it's the product of an entire lifetime - and there was no "form" until it was finally published - and, in fact, revisions (some because of copyright problems) continued up to and after his death (overseen by his son, Christopher). See the various drafts in in volumes 6–9 of Christopher's History of Middle-Earth series (The Return of the Shadow - The Treason of Isengard - The War of the Ring - Sauron Defeated).

3). The publishers comment, as far as this point goes, is more-or-less meaningless. Of course, Tolkien, like any writer (esp. of his time) would want the "whole bloody affair" published as one volume, but he was an unknown, a nobody. No publisher publishes a thousand+ page book by an unknown, it's economically unfeasible ("Tolkien hated the idea, but he accepted it in the end as necessary. Because as we all know, it is a very long book."). Many writers (such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Isaac Asimov) have their works first published in serial form in magazines. It's the editor's (usually supplied by the publisher) job to sculpt the work into a publishable form which is marketable and, hopefully, profitable - i.e., something that will sell. This process seldom has anything to do with the creative process. So, call it what you will : one story or a thousand, but it was never going to be published as one book.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:52 PM   #1185
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Originally Posted by Early Memphis View Post
Well, we're ... ... so I won't continue this, but you and the other fella are simply ... incorrect - as follows:

1) The story (and I never said it wasn't one story, although it's actually a connected thread of many stories) was originally written for his kids and sent to them as a series of stories via letters. Over the years, Tolkien applied his professorial talents and wove the tale together adding his love of language, etc., making the final work far more complex than The Hobbit which preceded it (1930-1932). It was written in stages over at least a 12-year period. The entire work, much of which was published in The Silmarillion (rejected as a follow-up to The Hobbit), actually has parts and ideas/sketches dating from as early as 1917.

2) The point is, TLOTR was not some book written on a schedule like some writers produce one book a year based on character/s they've created, it's the product of an entire lifetime - and there was no "form" until it was finally published - and, in fact, revisions (some because of copyright problems) continued up to and after his death (overseen by his son, Christopher). See the various drafts in in volumes 6–9 of Christopher's History of Middle-Earth series (The Return of the Shadow - The Treason of Isengard - The War of the Ring - Sauron Defeated).

3). The publishers comment, as far as this point goes, is more-or-less meaningless. Of course, Tolkien, like any writer (esp. of his time) would want the "whole bloody affair" published as one volume, but he was an unknown, a nobody. No publisher publishes a thousand+ page book by an unknown, it's economically unfeasible ("Tolkien hated the idea, but he accepted it in the end as necessary. Because as we all know, it is a very long book."). Many writers (such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Isaac Asimov) have their works first published in serial form in magazines. It's the editor's (usually supplied by the publisher) job to sculpt the work into a publishable form which is marketable and, hopefully, profitable - i.e., something that will sell. This process seldom has anything to do with the creative process. So, call it what you will : one story or a thousand, but it was never going to be published as one book.
1.) This point is completely irrelevant to your previous argument.

2.) This point is also irrelevant to your previous argument.

3.) In this point, you completely abandoned your argument to re-iterate a point I had already made. Earlier, you stated that it was always intended to be a trilogy. However, just now, you stated that it was only at the behest of the publisher that it be turned into a trilogy because of the length. Not only did you re-iterate what I had already said, but you also admitted that a trilogy was never Tolkien's intent like you did earlier.

Also, Tolkien was not some "unknown" at the time of the original publishing of The Lord of the Rings. He was a well-known scholar and had written the hugely successful The Hobbit. Heck, The Hobbit became so successful that publishers actually wanted a sequel. It's not like Tolkien had to actually try to sell it.

But you're right, this thread is not for the discussion of Tolkien and you are having a bit of a struggle holding down a succinct argument so I will end m debate here.
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:02 PM   #1186
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Your whole position is based on the demonstrably-false idea that Tarantino's original intention was compromised when splitting the film up (it wasn't, Blu-ray.com review be damned) and impractical "solutions" such as shuffling the chapters around just because and shortening the movie to the length of a single film. You also seem to object to the imagined expectation that TWBA is needs to be drastically different when you seem to be the only one who has that expectation.

Most people seem to know that we're looking at a handful of changes: a longer anime sequence, a full-color House of Blue Leaves scene, the differently-edited approach to Bill's villa from the international version and the removal of the cliffhanger/recap stuff. I think people also are well aware of the fact that the runtime would likely require an intermission and/or disc swap. And guess what? The people who understand this still want it.
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:55 PM   #1187
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Originally Posted by riddlerfiddler View Post
1.) This point is completely irrelevant to your previous argument.

2.) This point is also irrelevant to your previous argument.

3.) In this point, you completely abandoned your argument to re-iterate a point I had already made. Earlier, you stated that it was always intended to be a trilogy. However, just now, you stated that it was only at the behest of the publisher that it be turned into a trilogy because of the length. Not only did you re-iterate what I had already said, but you also admitted that a trilogy was never Tolkien's intent like you did earlier.

Also, Tolkien was not some "unknown" at the time of the original publishing of The Lord of the Rings. He was a well-known scholar and had written the hugely successful The Hobbit. Heck, The Hobbit became so successful that publishers actually wanted a sequel. It's not like Tolkien had to actually try to sell it.

But you're right, this thread is not for the discussion of Tolkien and you are having a bit of a struggle holding down a succinct argument so I will end m debate here.
Only in your interpretation. But, we'll have to agree to differ - until, perhaps, at some point in the proper thread ...
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Old 08-10-2014, 12:47 AM   #1188
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Originally Posted by GuruAskew View Post
Your whole position is based on the demonstrably-false idea that Tarantino's original intention was compromised when splitting the film up (it wasn't, Blu-ray.com review be damned) and impractical "solutions" such as shuffling the chapters around just because and shortening the movie to the length of a single film. You also seem to object to the imagined expectation that TWBA is needs to be drastically different when you seem to be the only one who has that expectation.

Most people seem to know that we're looking at a handful of changes: a longer anime sequence, a full-color House of Blue Leaves scene, the differently-edited approach to Bill's villa from the international version and the removal of the cliffhanger/recap stuff. I think people also are well aware of the fact that the runtime would likely require an intermission and/or disc swap. And guess what? The people who understand this still want it.
You're basically ignoring everything I am saying to continue the circle-jerk and it's boring.
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Old 08-10-2014, 02:55 PM   #1189
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Just watched these on bluray for the first time held out for the best price I could get the Steelbooks at I think I love these movies even more than I did before. I think the last time I watched these was 2007. I really hope we get Vol. 3 or Kill The Bride or Kill Beatrix or whatever the title will be cause my collection will feel incomplete till then.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:48 PM   #1190
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I've gotta disagree, O Velvety One. I've watched them back to back (cutting straight from Bill questioning Sophie at the end of #1 and skipping past the 'driving in a car' intro on #2, that way we go straight to the next 'chapter') and they work brilliantly together BECAUSE they're so different. Vol. 1 is the violence and the gore and the multiple crazy fight scenes, whereas Vol. 2 is calmer and more introspective. Given all of the Eastern influence on the film, it's very much a yin-yang kinda deal.

Why would I then want the WBA? First of all, I'm hoping that the violence would be that which is seen in the Japanese version (of which there's no Blu-ray release AFAIK), second of all, there's a longer anime sequence, third of all, there'd be no need to skip past chapters and whatnot when playing vol. 2. Heck, Tarantino might put in a cheesy 'intermission' card in the same manner as the edam-tastic 'ShawScope' logo, and that'd round the whole thing off.
I have watched both Volumes one and two back to back in one sitting and surprisingly the movie didn't work for me as a whole. Almost all stories have a sense of acceleration (all the good ones anyway) as they speed towards the climax. When watched as a whole the story slows down. I was a bit pissed when Tarantino split these films up originally but I think that was the absolute right move. A break of a least 24 hours between films is the perfect way to see both volumes. Stinging Velvet does bring up some really good points about TWBA and the pacing issue.
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Old 08-10-2014, 07:27 PM   #1191
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Originally Posted by Yojimbo68 View Post
I have watched both Volumes one and two back to back in one sitting and surprisingly the movie didn't work for me as a whole. Almost all stories have a sense of acceleration (all the good ones anyway) as they speed towards the climax. When watched as a whole the story slows down. I was a bit pissed when Tarantino split these films up originally but I think that was the absolute right move. A break of a least 24 hours between films is the perfect way to see both volumes. Stinging Velvet does bring up some really good points about TWBA and the pacing issue.
"the perfect way" for you (and those who feel that way). I watch 'em back-to-back, but that doesn't mean that you should enjoy them that way or that you're wrong if you don't. Why go on & on about this? That's why they make hamburgers with different condiments - different strokes fer different folks. There is no "perfect" way, there is no right way - there's whatever each person enjoys. And since we won't know what a released (if ever) Whole Bloody Affair would be like as far as edits and pacing go, this is all pissing in the wind - and, as StingingVelvet said, "boring". Perhaps your "pacing" issue is why "TWBA" has never been released. Perhaps Tarantino agrees with you and we won't see it until he's broke and needs the moolah - and we can certainly argue about it then.

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Old 08-10-2014, 07:49 PM   #1192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yojimbo68 View Post
I have watched both Volumes one and two back to back in one sitting and surprisingly the movie didn't work for me as a whole. Almost all stories have a sense of acceleration (all the good ones anyway) as they speed towards the climax. When watched as a whole the story slows down. I was a bit pissed when Tarantino split these films up originally but I think that was the absolute right move. A break of a least 24 hours between films is the perfect way to see both volumes. Stinging Velvet does bring up some really good points about TWBA and the pacing issue.
I disagree that all the good stories speed up, that's a very narrow view if you don't mind me saying. Something like Apocalypse Now slows to a crawl as Willard nears his objective, but it doesn't make his journey into the heart of darkness any less enthralling.

Anyhoo, Vol.1 is so breathlessly violent and aggressive that the change of pace comes as a blessed relief to me (though I don't need a whole day to recover ) and I like the fact that it slows down the ride because we finally get to see the other side of Beatrix, the tender, human side, not the unstoppable Terminator of Vol.1. The second part informs us of the whys and wherefores of her predicament and the change in pacing is very, very deliberate. That exploration of duality through form is the sort of thing that filmmaking should be about, not just homogenizing everything to fit one particular rhythm and purpose.
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Old 08-10-2014, 08:19 PM   #1193
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"the perfect way" for you (and those who feel that way). I watch 'em back-to-back, but that doesn't mean that you should enjoy them that way or that you're wrong if you don't. Why go on & on about this? That's why they make hamburgers with different condiments - different strokes fer different folks. There is no "perfect" way, there is no right way - there's whatever each person enjoys. And since we won't know what a released (if ever) Whole Bloody Affair would be like as far as edits and pacing go, this is all pissing in the wind - and, as StingingVelvet said, "boring". Perhaps your "pacing" issue is why "TWBA" has never been released. Perhaps Tarantino agrees with you and we won't see it until he's broke and needs the moolah - and we can certainly argue about it then.
Well in a perfect world everyone would get their perfect release tailored just for them, sure. I think we're just debating the viability of a WBA release in the market. While some people such as yourself might be satisfied with minor changes I'm not sure that would sell. and I'm stating I would have very little interest in it.

Who knows what the average Joe thinks, but I would bet money they agree with me more than you.
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:29 PM   #1194
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I disagree that all the good stories speed up, that's a very narrow view if you don't mind me saying. Something like Apocalypse Now slows to a crawl as Willard nears his objective, but it doesn't make his journey into the heart of darkness any less enthralling.

Anyhoo, Vol.1 is so breathlessly violent and aggressive that the change of pace comes as a blessed relief to me (though I don't need a whole day to recover ) and I like the fact that it slows down the ride because we finally get to see the other side of Beatrix, the tender, human side, not the unstoppable Terminator of Vol.1. The second part informs us of the whys and wherefores of her predicament and the change in pacing is very, very deliberate. That exploration of duality through form is the sort of thing that filmmaking should be about, not just homogenizing everything to fit one particular rhythm and purpose.
Apocalypse Now is a great movie but the ending is the films one flaw. Most people site the Brando sequences as they're least favorite part of the move. I think the Brando scenes are fascinating but they do slow the whole movie down and turn the film into a flawed masterpiece.

I just want to be clear that I love the Kill Bill films. That being said, I don't think they work as one entity.
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:38 PM   #1195
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Apocalypse Now is a great movie but the ending is the films one flaw. Most people site the Brando sequences as they're least favorite part of the move. I think the Brando scenes are fascinating but they do slow the whole movie down and turn the film into a flawed masterpiece.

I just want to be clear that I love the Kill Bill films. That being said, I don't think they work as one entity.
I have yet to see that said and would argue with anyone against it to the bitter end, I LOVE that whole sequence and it contains some of the greatest imagery every captured on film.
Also, Dennis Hopper's character is definitely one of my favorites from the movie as well.
I'm curious to see how Kill Bill will look as the whole bloody affair, it seems like any epic film structure.
Look at epics like Patton or Lawrence Of Arabia, they have the action in the first half and after the intermission it gets slow and more serious for a while until the last 20 minutes when they climax.
While its of course not even close to being as good as either of those two films I think Kill Bill would work just fine as one movie.
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:43 PM   #1196
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Originally Posted by Yojimbo68 View Post
Apocalypse Now is a great movie but the ending is the films one flaw. Most people site the Brando sequences as they're least favorite part of the move. I think the Brando scenes are fascinating but they do slow the whole movie down and turn the film into a flawed masterpiece.

I just want to be clear that I love the Kill Bill films. That being said, I don't think they work as one entity.
What?

The ending is the best part of the movie! The journey becomes ever more wild and crazy, the ending is like the calm after the storm, its peaceful yet disturbed.
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:16 PM   #1197
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Originally Posted by StingingVelvet View Post
Well in a perfect world everyone would get their perfect release tailored just for them, sure. I think we're just debating the viability of a WBA release in the market. While some people such as yourself might be satisfied with minor changes I'm not sure that would sell. and I'm stating I would have very little interest in it.

Who knows what the average Joe thinks, but I would bet money they agree with me more than you.
Who are you, The Amazing Kreskin? Learn how to read, bub. All I said was that we'll know more when and if it's released.

Besides, I never said a word about being "satisfied with minor changes". What I said was "since we won't know what a released (if ever) Whole Bloody Affair would be like as far as edits and pacing go, this is all pissing in the wind". And I thought you were the one who said that keeping up this debate, especially "basically ignoring everything I am saying to continue the circle-jerk" is "boring"? I even quoted you and agreed, now you come out with this "people such as yourself" bullshit. I guess you just wanna keep circle-jerking no matter who says what.
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:26 AM   #1198
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Who are you, The Amazing Kreskin? Learn how to read, bub. All I said was that we'll know more when and if it's released.

Besides, I never said a word about being "satisfied with minor changes". What I said was "since we won't know what a released (if ever) Whole Bloody Affair would be like as far as edits and pacing go, this is all pissing in the wind". And I thought you were the one who said that keeping up this debate, especially "basically ignoring everything I am saying to continue the circle-jerk" is "boring"? I even quoted you and agreed, now you come out with this "people such as yourself" bullshit. I guess you just wanna keep circle-jerking no matter who says what.
Uh, that comment was to someone else, not you.

I'm trying to reply to your comments that basically those who want it should get it, and I'm saying SURE, no problem, makes complete sense. However I am also saying that while I'd love for you to get the release you want, I'm not sure it will ever happen because I'm not sure how much of a market there is for such a minimally changed version as what's being discussed (i.e. mashing the films together, removing the credits to Vol. 1).

I'm not mocking your interests, I'm just saying I'm not sure that release would make money, and therefore I'm not sure it would ever be done.

I bet if Tarantino were interested in spending a lot of time looking at the film again, doing perhaps more edits and contributing to a lot of new special features content it would have a greater chance of happening, but he seems disinterested in such things lately.
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Old 08-11-2014, 04:53 AM   #1199
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Originally Posted by StingingVelvet View Post
Uh, that comment was to someone else, not you.

I'm trying to reply to your comments that basically those who want it should get it, and I'm saying SURE, no problem, makes complete sense. However I am also saying that while I'd love for you to get the release you want, I'm not sure it will ever happen because I'm not sure how much of a market there is for such a minimally changed version as what's being discussed (i.e. mashing the films together, removing the credits to Vol. 1).

I'm not mocking your interests, I'm just saying I'm not sure that release would make money, and therefore I'm not sure it would ever be done.

I bet if Tarantino were interested in spending a lot of time looking at the film again, doing perhaps more edits and contributing to a lot of new special features content it would have a greater chance of happening, but he seems disinterested in such things lately.
Well, he's showed it a few times, but like I said, maybe he agrees that the joining doesn't work - since he hasn't released it. Who can say, maybe someday ... but, really, I'm happy with the two BDs I've got.
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:56 PM   #1200
Tathanos Tathanos is offline
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I have kill bill volume 1 and volume 2 french steelbooks editions to sell or to trade if someone is interested.
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