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Old 08-29-2015, 05:07 PM   #401
ZoetMB ZoetMB is offline
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Originally Posted by garyrc View Post
I believe the Coronet got THX certification just as soon as it became available. Thomas H (what was his name?) reportedly didn't like horn loaded bass, but in the one published study I saw, they did not consider Frequency Modulation distortion. Still, the theater sounded great with many later films over the next many years.
It was Tomlinson Holman.

Frequency Modulation distortion? How does that apply to movie sound? Are you sure you're not referring to harmonic distortion, which every amp and speaker system is subject to?

Personally, I never liked horns either. They always sounded metallic to me, as does much digital audio.

And in the Star Wars era, 70mm presentation used the Dolby "baby-boom" format, which was 5 channels, not 4: L, Le, C, Re, R behind the screen (+ optional subwoofer) and mono surround. Le and Re were low frequencies only. The subwoofer was not a separate track - it was a feed from channels 2 and 4 through another low pass filter.

Beginning with Apocalypse Now, some films used split surround where the surrounds were stereo. This was accomplished by spitting the signal out of tracks 2 and 4 through low pass and high pass filters: the lower frequencies went to Le and Re and the higher frequencies went to the stereo surround speakers combined with the low frequencies from track 6 (the former mono surround track). This enabled them to get 7 channels out of 6 tracks.

When I saw "Star Wars" in 70mm at the Loews Astor Plaza in NYC, the sound was far inferior to "Close Encounters..." at the Ziegfeld. But it wasn't strident. It just didn't have as much impact.
loose="not tight", lose="can't find it, doesn't have anymore" or the opposite of "win".
their="belongs to", there="place", they're="they are", there's = "there is"
it's="it is", for everything else use "its"
then="after", than="compared with"
"a lot" not "alot"

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Old 08-29-2015, 09:57 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
...
Frequency Modulation distortion? How does that apply to movie sound? Are you sure you're not referring to harmonic distortion, which every amp and speaker system is subject to?

Personally, I never liked horns either. They always sounded metallic to me, as does much digital audio.
...

When I saw "Star Wars" in 70mm at the Loews Astor Plaza in NYC, the sound was far inferior to "Close Encounters..." at the Ziegfeld. But it wasn't strident. It just didn't have as much impact.
Thanks for the information.

Frequency Modulation distortion not the same as Harmonic distortion. I'm no expert, but "horny" designers say that Frequency Modulation distortion (so- called Doppler distortion) interferes with with clarity of attack in the bass (in theaters, the midrange and treble have less of a problem, because they are almost always horn loaded). With the same woofer cones, a good horn design can provide about 1/3 the Frequency Modulation distortion at a given SPL as can a non-horn (e.g., ported) design, everything else being held equal. The problem (as I understand it) is that the greater the cone excursion, the more the higher bass "rides" back and forth on a cone producing the mid bass and lower bass, with the resulting Doppler effect producing blurring, and a "looser" sound. A woofer in a horn loaded design moves much less, frequency for frequency, at a given SPL. There is good news and bad news. The good news is that the burden has been (largely) taken off of home and theater main front woofers with the use of subwoofers. The bad news is 1) bass attack frequencies above the crossover still need to be produced by a direct radiator, unless horn loaded, and 2) the subwoofers themselves move over a wide excursion -- but at least the frequencies above the crossover no longer have to ride on a wildly moving cone that is also producing deep bass (at least in HT, I don't know whether theaters are using a true crossover, which would protect the main woofers from VLF, or low pass filters, which would not). Several horn loaded subwoofers are now available to HT users to try to get around the problem. Some are DIY, and some from manufacturers. I believe Klipsch came out with one this year, but I'm not sure.

The metallic sound you are talking about would be in the range that is still horn loaded in commercial theaters ... at the moment, I don't think there is an alternative, because of the size of the theaters, and the SPL needed. But, I don't find most horns metallic with good program material, and good equipment. The Coronet used to be fully horn loaded, during its best days. After all of the changes we have been talking about, it always used horns above the bass range and always had a warm sound (except for Star Wars). I preferred the bass attack of the older mag films during the time the Coronet was fully horn loaded. The non-horn loaded bass at our local IMAX is unimpressive in that regard. Of course, modern films have an extra octave of bass, at least. We use horns in our HT and music listening room (except for the sub, unfortunately) and like them better than the alternatives we have heard. The source makes a huge difference. The rank order of sound quality in our home, across various media, starting at the best, is: Blu-ray sound, SACD or DVD-A, with CD at the bottom. Some of the CD sound might be called metallic, but I'd say slightly strident instead. Our longer horns are not made of metal, but of something else that looks like braced fiberglass.

True, digital sounds worse than analog, but with some of the newer Blu-rays with DTS HD Master, I think they are finally getting how to record it. My old recording professor, who was in the industry for about 40 years told me they took decades to learn how to baby analog, so it may take a while with digital. Also, I prefer tubes to ss, but have nothing but ss now. Ss has improved over the early years, when too much negative feedback lowered THD, but elevated TIM. My dead Luxman sounded "tube-like."

What you said about Close Encounters vs Star Wars in the two theaters was interesting. The theater makes such a difference. I saw both of the above movies at the Coronet; CE sounded better balanced. To be fair to Star Wars, the stridency occurred only during some parts of the score, and with R2D2's noises. When they re-released it -- also at the Coronet -- years later, in 35 mm and a dull sounding print, the stridency was gone, even with R2D2, but the shimmer was gone, as well. San Francisco used to have 6 70mm theaters, and they all sounded different, with the Coronet being the best.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:21 PM   #403
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True, digital sounds worse than analog, but with some of the newer Blu-rays with DTS HD Master, I think they are finally getting how to record it.
You should hear some of the new ones with Dolby Atmos/TrueHD 7.1

Gravity and Mad Max: Fury Road are one of the best soundmixes ever on Blu.
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:16 PM   #404
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Hi i read for best realism in racing games one should have the tv/projector set at size/distance to get the same viewing angle as the field of view setting in the game.

Now im wondering what the field of view is in movies at various aspect ratios ?
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:42 AM   #405
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Hi i read for best realism in racing games one should have the tv/projector set at size/distance to get the same viewing angle as the field of view setting in the game.

Now im wondering what the field of view is in movies at various aspect ratios ?
If, by field of view or viewing angle, you mean angle of coverage, it varies within each aspect ratio, depending on what lens the director selected for that particular shot.

A "long lens" provides a narrow field of view, and delivers a relatively close-up view of whatever is being shot. A "short lens" provides a wide angle of view.
All this is independent of aspect ratio, and each screen process has a set of lenses with a variety of angles of view. For instance, 70 mm Todd-AO originally had a "bug eye" extremely short lens with a super wide angle of coverage, which took in 128 degrees. It was nicknamed "Bugs." That particular lens was used for very few shots, though. Dimension 150 (D-150) had a lens that took in 150 degrees, but, I believe, all shots with that lens for the two films made with that process (John Huston's The Bible ... in the beginning and Patton) ended up on the cutting room floor. Both D150 and 70 mm Todd-AO had other very wide angle lenses, as well as a selection of relatively narrow angle ones. The [U]effective[U] aspect ratio of each -- in the theater -- depended on where you were sitting in regard to the deeply curving screen. In the camera, both had an aspect ratio of 2.2:1.

The original, three camera, three projector Cinerama was an exception. All shots had a 146 degree field of view. So, for Cinerama, sitting in a spot in the theater that would make the image 146 degrees wide might make sense. That would mean way down front!

Last edited by garyrc; 09-02-2017 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 09-02-2017, 05:10 AM   #406
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Thanks for the information.

Frequency Modulation distortion not the same as Harmonic distortion. I'm no expert, but "horny" designers say that Frequency Modulation distortion (so- called Doppler distortion) interferes with with clarity of attack in the bass (in theaters, the midrange and treble have less of a problem, because they are almost always horn loaded).
I don't know everything, but I'm an ex-recording engineer and I would maintain that there is no such thing as far as a theater b-chain is concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrc View Post
What you said about Close Encounters vs Star Wars in the two theaters was interesting. The theater makes such a difference. I saw both of the above movies at the Coronet; CE sounded better balanced. To be fair to Star Wars, the stridency occurred only during some parts of the score, and with R2D2's noises. When they re-released it -- also at the Coronet -- years later, in 35 mm and a dull sounding print, the stridency was gone, even with R2D2, but the shimmer was gone, as well. San Francisco used to have 6 70mm theaters, and they all sounded different, with the Coronet being the best.
Of course the theater makes a difference and the Coronet was amazingly good. I saw one of the Lethal Weapon movies there (I think it was the third) and the separation was so good that it literally sounded like there were live actors in the center of the screen and a live orchestra playing the soundtrack to the left and right.

One of the differences between the presentation of CE and Star Wars in NYC was that a lot of extra equipment was added for CE at the Ziegfeld and also at a theater in Los Angeles. They bolted the screen speakers to 3/4" plywood fronts, which is what THX eventually did; they added 8 Cerwin Vega Baby Earthquakes and 21 Bose 901 surrounds. It sounded spectacular.

A revival of CE is playing at the local Dolby Vision theater in NYC. I'm going to see it next week hoping it looks and sounds at least as good as did originally in 70mm. But I'm pessimistic that it's simply going to be too damned loud.
loose="not tight", lose="can't find it, doesn't have anymore" or the opposite of "win".
their="belongs to", there="place", they're="they are", there's = "there is"
it's="it is", for everything else use "its"
then="after", than="compared with"
"a lot" not "alot"

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Old 09-02-2017, 07:39 AM   #407
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I don't know everything, but I'm an ex-recording engineer and I would maintain that there is no such thing as far as a theater b-chain is concerned.
Of course, I don't know everything either, but my understanding is that all loudspeakers are vulnerable to Frequency Modulation distortion, but it is minimized by minimizing excursion. Properly designed horn loading minimizes both. With the same speakers installed, a good direct radiator tends to produce something like 3 times the FMD as a good horn. A speaker with low frequency modulation distortion tends to produce fewer sidebands than one with higher FMD.

There are many articles on this. If you (still) belong to AES, you can get this one at no cost:

AES E-Library
Frequency-Modulation Distortion in Loudspeakers (Reprint)

As the frequency-response range of a sound-reproducing system is extended, the necessity for minimizing all forms of distortion is correspondingly increased. The part which the loudspeaker can contribute to the overall distortion of a reproducing system has been frequently considered. A type of loudspeaker distortion which has not received general consideration is described. This distortion is a result of the Doppler-effect and produces frequency modulation in loudspeakers reproducing complex tones. Equations for this type of distortion are given. Measurements which confirm the calculated distortion in several loudspeakers are shown. An appendix giving the derivation of the equations is included.

Authors: Beers, George L.; Belar, H.
Affiliation: RCA Manufacturing Company, Camden, NJ
JAES Volume 29 Issue 5 pp. 320-326; May 1981
Publication Date:May 1, 1981 Import into BibTeX
Permalink: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3912
Click to purchase paper as a non-member or login as an AES member. If your company or school subscribes to the E-Library then switch to the institutional version. If you are not an AES member and would like to subscribe to the E-Library then Join the AES!
This paper costs $33 for non-members and is free for AES members and E-Library subscribers.

Good luck at the showing of CE! To be "Too damn loud" for the recording engineers I have known, it must be loud, indeed!

Did the 3/4" plywood boards added for CE in NYC and LA extend to either side of each speaker enclosure? Cinerama tended to fill in all the space between the behind the screen speakers (often Altec) with 3/4" plywood "wings" to increase bass loading. Todd-AO did the same thing, except when the giant JBLs installed in many Todd-AO theaters were used, because the front surface of the speaker enclosures themselves (to either side of the 4 woofer front loaded horns) were broad enough to suffice. There is a picture of these somewhere on the Lansing Heritage website.

Last edited by garyrc; 09-02-2017 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 09-02-2017, 03:10 PM   #408
ZoetMB ZoetMB is offline
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Originally Posted by garyrc View Post
Of course, I don't know everything either, but my understanding is that all loudspeakers are vulnerable to Frequency Modulation distortion, but it is minimized by minimizing excursion. Properly designed horn loading minimizes both. With the same speakers installed, a good direct radiator tends to produce something like 3 times the FMD as a good horn. A speaker with low frequency modulation distortion tends to produce fewer sidebands than one with higher FMD.

There are many articles on this. If you (still) belong to AES, you can get this one at no cost:

AES E-Library
Frequency-Modulation Distortion in Loudspeakers (Reprint)

As the frequency-response range of a sound-reproducing system is extended, the necessity for minimizing all forms of distortion is correspondingly increased. The part which the loudspeaker can contribute to the overall distortion of a reproducing system has been frequently considered. A type of loudspeaker distortion which has not received general consideration is described. This distortion is a result of the Doppler-effect and produces frequency modulation in loudspeakers reproducing complex tones. Equations for this type of distortion are given. Measurements which confirm the calculated distortion in several loudspeakers are shown. An appendix giving the derivation of the equations is included.
OK, I concede on the FM issue. But I doubt it's a problem for modern reproducers. That paper is 36 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrc View Post
Good luck at the showing of CE! To be "Too damn loud" for the recording engineers I have known, it must be loud, indeed!
We never listened all that loud in the studio. Room filling, but I never walked out of the studio feeling tedium and certainly no ringing. In fact, one of the things all pop music studios did was have a set of small speakers on the mixing console so they could hear how the track would sound coming out of very small speakers to emulate how it might sound on the radio. Levels today in clubs, movies and even some Broadway shows are ridiculous. Everyone has forgotten what dynamic range means. Directors are so scared their movie doesn't work, they max the sound levels because they think it increases emotion, but all it does is increase tedium. You have films where two people are talking to each other conversationally and because of the high levels, it sounds like they're screaming at you.

I keep intending to bring an SPL meter to the theater, but I always forget. This time I'm going to bring it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrc View Post
Did the 3/4" plywood boards added for CE in NYC and LA extend to either side of each speaker enclosure? Cinerama tended to fill in all the space between the behind the screen speakers (often Altec) with 3/4" plywood "wings" to increase bass loading. Todd-AO did the same thing, except when the giant JBLs installed in many Todd-AO theaters were used, because the front surface of the speaker enclosures themselves (to either side of the 4 woofer front loaded horns) were broad enough to suffice. There is a picture of these somewhere on the Lansing Heritage website.
As far as I know they did. I don't think I've ever seen pics of behind the screen of those particular installations, which were unfortunately temporary, but if you look at pics of later THX installations, they did. There was a trade ad, I think for JBL, that showed either the Director's Guild or the Academy Theatre with the screen up and the wings were continuous. If you look up very old issues of BoxOffice or maybe even MIX, Recording Engineer/Producer or "db", you can probably find such ads.
loose="not tight", lose="can't find it, doesn't have anymore" or the opposite of "win".
their="belongs to", there="place", they're="they are", there's = "there is"
it's="it is", for everything else use "its"
then="after", than="compared with"
"a lot" not "alot"

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Old 09-02-2017, 10:41 PM   #409
garyrc garyrc is offline
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Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
OK, I concede on the FM issue. But I doubt it's a problem for modern reproducers. That paper is 36 years old.
...
I keep intending to bring an SPL meter to the theater, but I always forget. This time I'm going to bring it.
...
There are newer papers -- I just didn't look them up. IMHO, there is good news and bad news about modern reproducers. The good news is that by crossing over to a subwoofer the mid and high bass generated by the regular woofers doesn't have to ride back and forth on woofer excursions occurring below about 80 Hz, therefore there is less FMD in the regular woofer. The bad news is that most subwoofers have very wide excursion (unless they are horn loaded). True, the FMD is kept out of the higher bass, but the lowest octaves of music (below 80, if that's where they are crossing over) are still under threat. I read that to keep FMD down, there is an advantage in keeping excursions of the regular woofer < 1/16," which some horn loaded bass drivers had in the past (the big, horn loaded, 4 woofer per channel bass units by Altec and JBL). There are now some horn loaded theater speakers by other manufacturers (some of the Klipsch pro line, and some British contenders), that achieve that. Fortunately, given the relatively high FMD of most direct radiating subwoofers, the ear is not too fussy about special effects from what I call The Infernal Bass Machine.

There were either 5 of these JBL units behind the screen in many Todd-AO theaters or the equivalent by Altec. They were only smooth to 40 Hz, and "usable" to 30 Hz, but, to my ears, they had much cleaner bass attack than modern theater speakers (which attempt to go down to 10 Hz, we are told). The JBLs were often labeled "Jim Lansing by Ampex," because the Todd-AO corp. hired Ampex to provide the Todd-AO sound. The Coronet was such a theater, until either all the speakers were changed, or subwoofers were merely added for Star Wars in 1977.
http://www.audioheritage.org/images/...crop_small.jpg

I took an SPL meter into a theater a few times. On "C," "Fast" I got a lot of readings in the 90s on loud passages, with some brief peaks as high as 105 to 110 db. I used "C," "Fast" in order to get some idea of the peaks. When THX was doing their early work (at the time of The Empire Strikes Back in 1980) they got peaks in a real theater of 108 dB for [U]Empire[U] with bass peaks of 110 dB. I've heard with a peak reading meter, a symphony orchestra can produce very brief peaks of 115 dB from the front rows.

Last edited by garyrc; 09-02-2017 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:16 PM   #410
eleganto eleganto is offline
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Originally Posted by garyrc View Post
If, by field of view or viewing angle, you mean angle of coverage, it varies within each aspect ratio, depending on what lens the director selected for that particular shot.

A "long lens" provides a narrow field of view, and delivers a relatively close-up view of whatever is being shot. A "short lens" provides a wide angle of view.
All this is independent of aspect ratio, and each screen process has a set of lenses with a variety of angles of view. For instance, 70 mm Todd-AO originally had a "bug eye" extremely short lens with a super wide angle of coverage, which took in 128 degrees. It was nicknamed "Bugs." That particular lens was used for very few shots, though. Dimension 150 (D-150) had a lens that took in 150 degrees, but, I believe, all shots with that lens for the two films made with that process (John Huston's The Bible ... in the beginning and Patton) ended up on the cutting room floor. Both D150 and 70 mm Todd-AO had other very wide angle lenses, as well as a selection of relatively narrow angle ones. The [U]effective[U] aspect ratio of each -- in the theater -- depended on where you were sitting in regard to the deeply curving screen. In the camera, both had an aspect ratio of 2.2:1.

The original, three camera, three projector Cinerama was an exception. All shots had a 146 degree field of view. So, for Cinerama, sitting in a spot in the theater that would make the image 146 degrees wide might make sense. That would mean way down front!
It will be a too big step for me , im used to watch movies at home about 25 degree viewing angle independent of aspect ratio

I think ill start with: picture height excluding bars * 2.4 to get distance to watch the tv.

This will result in double viewing angle from what im used to when watching 21:9 movie.

And 40 degree viewing angle when watching 16:9 movies.


And change my habit of always sitting in the midde row at the cinema and move to the front row when watching movies like The Hateful Eight shot in Ultra Panavision.

Thanks very much for your help sir garyrc

Last edited by eleganto; 09-03-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:09 PM   #411
garyrc garyrc is offline
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And change my habit of always sitting in the midde row at the cinema and move to the front row when watching movies like The Hateful Eight shot in Ultra Panavision.
The front row may be too close in many theaters. If you are watching an exceptionally good 70mm print of The Hateful Eight or Dunkirk it could be O.K., but with most films I'd sit farther back, but closer than your old location in the middle. Cinemas vary wildly in screen size, row spacing, and whether the seats come almost all the way down to the screen or if there is a pit and a stage taking up space. If the director uses many panoramic shots and relatively few close-ups (Gravity, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Around the World in 80 Days, 70 mm Todd-AO, 1956) it may be fine to sit close, particularly if the cinema is running a 70 mm print. For 35 mm or digital, you may want to be farther back.

In our Home Theater we have a 2.35:1 aspect ratio projection screen with "common height" which means that 2.35:1 and 1.78:1 (16:9), and almost all of the other eight aspect ratios have the same height, but the wider aspect ratios are wider on the screen, as originally intended by the movie industry. For "'scope" (2.35 or 2.39:1) there is about a 50 degree viewing angle, and less for standard format (1.85:1 and 1.78:1).

My favorite cinema was the Coronet in San Francisco, which was equipped for 70 mm. The seats came almost all the way down to the screen. Originally, the screen was very large and fairly deeply curved. For the first several films shown there, the image -- and the screen itself -- filled the curtain area, side to side and top to bottom, providing a huge image. I sat in the 9th row from the screen for films without too many close-ups, and about row 14 for close-up infested films.

http://photos.cinematreasures.org/pr...jpg?1418371520

Then they did a terrible thing. They removed the big, curved screen and substituted a smaller and barely curved one. This was the result of a war in the industry over whether prints would build in distortion correction for a deeply curved screen. Without this correction, a special projection lens would be needed, and most theaters didn't want to pay. They left the large, curved curtains in place, but when they opened, behold (!), a smaller image. The difference was great. To get an image the size people were used to getting from the 20th row, they had to move up to the 11th row. So it goes. Here is the smaller screen they put in. Inside the curtain area, any thing that is BLACK used to be part of the image. As you can see, the newer image area is much smaller, although still bigger than the image in some theaters.

http://www.outsidelands.org/Image/70...erior-2005.jpg

Later, several theaters did incorporate deeply curved screens, with corrective lenses. The Century 21 in San Jose, California had a screen 85 feet across the chord of the arc. For the second viewing of 2001: A Space Odyssey, in 70 mm, my friends and I sat in the front row. The image was larger than what my eyeglasses took in. To read the title, we had to turn our heads. Yet, the image was sharp and clear. It was a life changing experience.

Last edited by garyrc; 09-03-2017 at 10:16 PM.
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