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Old 03-01-2014, 06:26 PM   #561
AlexIlDottore AlexIlDottore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
With many Italian films of that period it doesn't matter what language the actors spoke on set (and I think it was Sergio Corbucci who said he could just have the actors count numbers aloud, in their own language, or something, because it didn't matter), the directors weren't interested in that. Quite often they even used completely different actors to make the Italian dubs even if the actual actors would have spoken fluent Italian. It was important how the characters sounded.

There may not really be something that could be called original language for a lot of these films but even so quite often the directors were Italian, the writers were Italian (and the original scripts in Italian) and the directors themselves were probably only involved with the Italian dubbing(?), did not care what was said on set and I would think were only thinking how the film would be in Italian and with particular voice actors in mind.
This

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Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
I think (haven't really researched this, I just have a feeling ) later on more of the films were shot with English in mind. For example Enzo Castellari filmed his poliziotteschis with the cast speaking English (at least the main cast even if they were Italian like Franco Nero)?
And weren't the Hill & Spencer films filmed mostly in English (dubbed later of course but at least they spoke English on the set) and were meant for wider international release?
You're probably right, but I'm not sure.
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:18 PM   #562
BladeRunner2007 BladeRunner2007 is offline
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Man I am still so pissed. Not only do we not get the theatrical cut, but we also don't get the correct extended version/director's cut of the film. Just the lame US-extended version. And since there never was a mono mix for this cut, the mono we'll get is just a lame downmix of the old 5.1 mix, which is just terrible. Picture probably will be lackluster, too. FOX is just so lazy.
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:45 PM   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexIlDottore View Post
This could be for The Colossus of Rhodes though

I hope they do something with TGTBATU though to make up for Fox/MGM's neglect for what fans truly want and deserve.
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:54 PM   #564
AlexIlDottore AlexIlDottore is offline
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Originally Posted by RiFiFi1955 View Post
This could be for The Colossus of Rhodes though
Edit : Read the page after (from where you quoted me) before you post silliness with your rolling eyes
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Last edited by AlexIlDottore; 03-01-2014 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:04 PM   #565
RiFiFi1955 RiFiFi1955 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexIlDottore View Post
Edit : Read the page after (from where you quoted me) before you post silliness with your rolling eyes
The rolling of the eyes for sarcasm meant I was just joking...but yes I see someone already beat me at mentioning The Colossus of Rhodes.
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:06 PM   #566
AlexIlDottore AlexIlDottore is offline
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Originally Posted by RiFiFi1955 View Post
The rolling of the eyes for sarcasm meant I was just joking...but yes I see someone already beat me at mentioning The Colossus of Rhodes.
Cool, dude
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:39 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by AlexIlDottore View Post
No, you are incorrect. In gialli as well, the international cast spoke their native language. They did not have the italians or the international cast (except native english speakers) speak english on set.
I was thinking primarily of Dario Argento.

Q: "Many of your movies are international coproductions. How do you work with language? Do you dub voices in for different territories?"

A: "I always shoot in English, and I always keep the original voice of the English or American actor."
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:36 PM   #568
hanshotfirst1138 hanshotfirst1138 is offline
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And still no word on the other two films in the set. Which probably speaks for itself, sadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coligion View Post
Agreed. It would be simple for them to include both cuts but, of course, they cannot do this for us. This happens all too often, especially on the Blu-ray format.
What's especially galling about that is that given the significant amount of space Blu-Ray offers, it should be even easier to do.

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I guess they figure there is no longer demand for the theatrical cut's inclusion .
Outside of folks like us, there probably isn't, sadly.

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I guess I will always have to look to my 1998 DVD for this cut of the film.
I'm assuming that the TC has never been on BD?

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Originally Posted by djchaseb View Post
I bought the Mondo Blu, ripped the video, muxed in an English 5.1 track that someone did, best I can get as far as having the Theatrical, guess that is gonna have to do.
Yeah, it's looking like fan-made versions are the best bet for these things. I have to get some computer equipment.

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Originally Posted by al cos. View Post
The original mono never existed for this longer version, so how does that work? Do it suddenly go "newly recreated mono" for those scenes or something else?
The only thing I can figure, and this is the best-case scenario, is that they'll utilize the original mono for all of the original scenes and use the downmix for the extended scenes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irongod2112 View Post
From what I remember they said it could not be done.
What they probably mean is that the TC wold have to have the original mono, and since they had no inclination to include that, they probably don't see it as "possible" to mix the tracks.

Quote:
Now if they gave us the theatrical cut they could easily give us a mono soundtrack for it with little effort and just keep the 5.1 audio on the longer version.
Why they can't do this is a mystery to me, it doesn't seem like it'd be that much effort, it'd just involve removing scenes, not re-editing any.

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Now the only hope I have is for a REAL fan to make their own version
of the theatrical cut with mono audio... anyone doing this?
I'm sure someone will, and it'll kick around torrent sites and such.

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Originally Posted by Markgway View Post
I'd write to MGM to complain, but I'm from the UK so they give even less of a crap what I think than you guys...
I seriously doubt that they care any more about what we say than what you would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonski View Post
I'm passing on this too ......maybe, just maybe, those placeholders on Criterion's website mean we'll get something from them (a la It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World)
I think we'll get the original Star Wars trilogy without all of the SE BS properly remastered before we get that. And we never will, IMO. It's always fun to wish that Criterion would get stuff, but big studio titles like this with this much commercial potential, it's not likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion138 View Post
He should've hired all Italian actors, then.

I'm all for a director's vision...but again, his vision included an international cast. The film he made is the film he made because of that fact. I agree that having the Italian with subs alongside the English-language version would be nice. But as someone else said, it's always going to be a supplementary version for anyone who actually wants to hear the lead actors that Leone cast, speaking their own lines.
During that era, it was pretty common to have polyglot casts like that, actually. Depending upon which region the film was released in, the posters would hype up the star for that particular territory-West German, French, Italian, Spanish, American, etc. There are stories about people actually speaking their own languages to each other on sets and then dubbing it for each territory. It happened on many spaghetti Westerns, Gialli, and even some tokustatsu movies back then. I think that at least here in the US, there is an entirely wrong knee-jerk reaction which I have had many time to think dubbing=cheesy, subtitles=arsty, but when recently saw Corbucci's Django theatrically, they ran the subtitled version. The Blue Underground disc actually had both versions, and proper subtitles rather than dubtitles, and I admit that I only switch to the English version a few times and preferred it subbed. Evidently, the cinema showing it did as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kristoffer View Post
What are the chances of this been Region all?
Are MGM discs usually not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexIlDottore View Post
TGTBTU 4k is being released individually in Europe in May/June. Don't know about the box-set though. The box will almost certainly contain the old inferior discs for the other 2 films in the trilogy, so I'm going for the individual French release. No new release date for the UK release but it'll probably be May/June.
Yeah, I think that unless the versions of FOD and FAFDM have the original mono tracks, which they don't seem likely to since these are probably just repackaging, I'll just comb through the thread here and find out which versions to get instead. No, off to the search function....

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Originally Posted by PrestonXI View Post
I teach a high school film course
Sounds fun .

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This semester we will be watching the great Bertolucci film Il Conformista in English.
Was that shot silent or with multiple actors speaking different languages? II assumed that in that case, it was designed to be seen in Italian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexIlDottore View Post
No, you are incorrect. In gialli as well, the international cast spoke their native language. They did not have the Italians or the international cast (except native English speakers) speak English on set.
Alan Jones and Kim Newman say this on their commentary track for The Bird With the Crystal Plumage. Which is now out of print. Dammit.

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Originally Posted by BladeRunner2007 View Post
Picture probably will be lackluster, too. FOX is just so lazy.
Given how perverse out luck is, the picture will probably be stunning and then the audio will be messed up.
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:58 PM   #569
CinemaScope CinemaScope is offline
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I dunno, no one knows anything yet. It's nearly three months away. Amazon US says it's the trilogy, but the Europe Amazons have it as just the one film. I'd forget about it for now, & enjoy the spring.
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Old 03-03-2014, 05:46 PM   #570
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Given how much space Blu Ray offers they could easily put the TC on there, even if its just a 'bonus feature'. Its a big irony that BD, with its better presentation/more storage than DVD, actually seems to be treated in a lazier way by companies (imo).
I agree the 'best' scenario is they use a downmix for the extended scenes and real Mono for the scenes also in the theatrical cut. That could work.
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Old 03-03-2014, 10:01 PM   #571
St.ylo St.ylo is offline
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So with the downmix/newer non-mono soundtrack, the gunshots and sound effects are actually different?
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Old 03-03-2014, 10:04 PM   #572
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I just can't stand how the canon blast towards the end at the cemetery is so much louder than the rest of the soundtrack. If the soundtrack as at a volume of 10 then that canon fire is Spinal Tapped all the way up to at least a 15.
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Old 03-03-2014, 10:31 PM   #573
BladeRunner2007 BladeRunner2007 is offline
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Originally Posted by St.ylo View Post
So with the downmix/newer non-mono soundtrack, the gunshots and sound effects are actually different?
Yes, they made those changes back in the day when they released the extended version with 5.1 sound.
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:35 PM   #574
Oblivion138 Oblivion138 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 View Post
During that era, it was pretty common to have polyglot casts like that, actually. Depending upon which region the film was released in, the posters would hype up the star for that particular territory-West German, French, Italian, Spanish, American, etc. There are stories about people actually speaking their own languages to each other on sets and then dubbing it for each territory. It happened on many spaghetti Westerns, Gialli, and even some tokustatsu movies back then. I think that at least here in the US, there is an entirely wrong knee-jerk reaction which I have had many time to think dubbing=cheesy, subtitles=arsty, but when recently saw Corbucci's Django theatrically, they ran the subtitled version. The Blue Underground disc actually had both versions, and proper subtitles rather than dubtitles, and I admit that I only switch to the English version a few times and preferred it subbed. Evidently, the cinema showing it did as well.
I'm aware of how Italian films were made at the time. And Django stars an Italian actor. The fact that it's better subtitled tends to prove my point more than disprove it.
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:53 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Markgway View Post
I can't believe there are still - after 48 years - people out there who think this film should be watched in Italian! The only actors who spoke Italian were the ones who couldn't speak any English (most tried). This was always intended to be an English language movie and the Italian dub has no more validity than a French or German dub. The filmmakers may have been Italian but that's it. The original Italian script may have been a more accurate representation of Leone's vision ON PAPER -- BUT the film he shot was an English one. This argument can be applied to MANY other Italian genre movies (e.g.. Dario Argento's).
"The filmmakers may have been Italian but that's it"?? LOL, I don't know if you wanted to say this like it was just some small thing. But just so you know - it isn't.

Do you consider the actors to be more important than the friggin director? "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly - A Clint Eastwood film"? And what's more, in this case we're not talking about a functional puppet director hired for the job, but one of the true auteurs in cinema history. I sure would like the choice to fully experience the version closest to his brain.

Oddly enough, one movie that illustates this issue somewhat is the Italian made Troll 2. The movie is entirely in English, the actors were American and had English as their native language. There are no grammatical errors per say, but there sure are some weird expressions with hilarious consequences. "Cutting off someone's little nuts and eating them" might be a normal Italian profanity expression when you're angry at someone - I don't know. But it sure sounds weird when you translate it to English. There would also be various English phrases that would sound weird in other languages if translated literally, like "hit the ground running" and such.

I'm not trying to say that the translation is nearly as bad for TGTBATU as it was for Troll 2, or that is indeed bad at all because the production was a kazillion times better. But I am certain that Leone's complete vision had not been emulated perfectly right into the English dub.
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Old 04-09-2014, 11:12 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by St.ylo View Post
So with the downmix/newer non-mono soundtrack, the gunshots and sound effects are actually different?
The bridge explosion sounds like the Death Star going up, lol

The new effects stick out like a sore thumb.
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Old 04-09-2014, 11:23 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Sky_Captain View Post
The bridge explosion sounds like the Death Star going up, lol

The new effects stick out like a sore thumb.

Just like the Terminator remix.
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:24 PM   #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BladeRunner2007 View Post
Not only do we not get the theatrical cut, but we also don't get the correct extended version/director's cut of the film.
My impression was the theatrical cut was the director's cut.
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:28 PM   #579
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You know what he means: the extended edition adds the grotto scene which Leone himself removed from the film.

As for which is the true DC, the US theatrical or the original Italian version (which is what the EE is based upon + the grotto scene), I'll leave that argument to Leone buffs. But I see it as akin to Kubrick and The Shining: Leone was happy to let certain versions play in certain territories.

Last edited by Geoff D; 04-09-2014 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 04-09-2014, 11:10 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU View Post
LOL, I don't know if you wanted to say this like it was just some small thing. But just so you know - it isn't. Do you consider the actors to be more important than the friggin director?
If Leone cared that much about making 'an Italian film' he would have hired Italian leads and shot the film with sound. Under those circumstances, TGTBATU would, indeed, have been an Italian language movie.

However, he choose three American leads, all of whom spoke English on set, and whose dialogue makes up the bulk of the script. How accurate are the translations from the paper Italian? No idea. It would take a comparison with the original script to find out.

But what you read in a script is far less important than what you ultimately hear on film. I'm interested in the movie Leone made, not the movie he wrote. Has there ever been a movie where the script has remained 100% unchanged?

I was wrong in asserting that most of the supporting characters spoke English. Some clearly aren't speaking English, presumably Italians and Spaniards, but as for the exact number, it's difficult to say. It's disappointing that an esteemed director should care so little about such an important detail.

Of course, people are free to watch in whatever language they prefer... but I think anyone choosing to listen to Eastwood, Van Cleaf and Wallach dubbed is crazy.
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