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Old 03-08-2014, 02:36 PM   #1561
Det. Bullock Det. Bullock is offline
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Originally Posted by Oblivion138 View Post
The narration in the film is terrible. Perhaps there could have been a narration that wouldn't have been terrible. But the one that's actually there in the theatrical versions is "a load of dung."

Also, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep is novel, not a short story. And how closely the film hews to the source does not equate to how good or bad it is. No version of Blade Runner is particularly faithful to the novel...but it's such a great film that it scarcely matters.

Don't get me wrong...just because I think the theatrical versions are hampered by voiceovers that rob the film of any subtlety, distract from the incredible visuals, and generally do sod-all to improve the viewing experience, that doesn't mean you have to agree with me. Which is why - as was my original point all along - it's great that Scott endeavors to get as many cuts of the film out there as possible.
What's the problem with the voiceover?
It doesn't say anything obvious, it gives us details on the world which people cannot possibly guess and it gives the movie a retrņ atmosphere that I really like.
Scott recut the movie paradoxically not because he wanted to make it deeper, by his own admission he wanted to make a piece of entertainment, that's why he threw away all subtext in favour of a (I'm quoting him) "Twilight zone twist", with the FC he even changed the color grading because he had a nasty fight with the DOP on the set because he (Scott) decided to scrap an entre day of filming because he changed if mind about the lightning used.
The guy has shown more than once of having little to no sense of what makes a good story or screeplay, while sometimes he hit the target (like with the Kingodm of Heaven DC) other times he missed the target (think of Prometheus).

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So you want it, you just don't want to pay what it costs. Life is hard, ain't it?
I'm no billionaire and my bank account is lumped toghether with that of my brothers (we have a small family business), so forgive me if I don't want to spend 50 Euros on a box set in which there is only one disc that interests me and moreover with lower quality than the European one that costs even more.

Last edited by Det. Bullock; 03-08-2014 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 03-08-2014, 02:45 PM   #1562
Stinky-Dinkins Stinky-Dinkins is offline
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To me the delivery of the voice over sounds lifeless and uninterested, almost like at the last second they handed Harrison Ford a sheet of paper and said "Here, read this real quick."

It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the movie. It's like you're watching events in real-time in 3rd person and then suddenly Deckard starts recounting backstory and needlessly explaining things as if the events on the screen are a memory of his or a story he's telling to someone else, as if he's explaining aspects of the plot and characters to some unknown audience... so it has an almost fourth-wall-breaking effect.

If, in the original Alien, abruptly 20 minutes into the film a voiceover of Ripley's was suddenly overlaid on the events unfolding on screen... "This is our ship The Nostromo, where we discovered the Alien with our crew of blah blah blah" it would totally alter the experience.
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Old 03-08-2014, 02:57 PM   #1563
Det. Bullock Det. Bullock is offline
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Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins View Post
To me the delivery of the voice over sounds lifeless and uninterested, almost like at the last second they handed Harrison Ford a sheet of paper and said "Here, read this real quick."
Not that Deckard is a particularly emotional character, part of the plot revolves around this, so while perhaps unintentional I don' find it out of place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins View Post
It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the movie. It's like you're watching events in real-time and then suddenly Deckard starts recounting backstory and needlessly explaining things as if the events on the screen are a memory or story he's telling, as if he's explainging aspects of the plot and characters to some unknown audience... so it has an almost fourth-wall-breaking effect.
Considering that's how a lot of old timey noir movies worked I don't really mind, only because it has an explicative voiceover doesn't mean it lacks subtlety (Barry Lyndon cames to my mind) or vice versa the lack of voiceover doesn't necessarily imply being deep.

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Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins View Post

If, in the original Alien, abruptly 20 minutes into the film a voiceover of Ripley's was suddenly overlaid on the events unfolding on screen... "This is our ship The Nostromo, where we discovered the Alien with our crew of blah blah blah" it would totally alter the experience.
Alien wasn't written with a voiceover in mind, Blade Runner was.

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Old 03-08-2014, 03:13 PM   #1564
Stinky-Dinkins Stinky-Dinkins is offline
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Originally Posted by Det. Bullock View Post
only because it has an explicative voiceover doesn't mean it lacks subtlety (Barry Lyndon cames to my mind) or vice versa the lack of voiceover doesn't necessarily imply being deep.
No, not necessarily (although in the case of Blade Runner I think it does rob the film of some degree of subtlety, but to each his own), but to me it implies that the occurrences on screen are a recounting of past events told to an anonymous audience. This isn't a 3rd person narration as read by someone not in the film, it is the voice of Deckard. When suddenly Deckard says something like "They don't advertise for killers in the newspaper. That was my profession" in the midst of a scene it completely shifts my perception of the film. To me, that sort of narration prevents me from being an invisible 3rd person observer of the plot as it unfurls in real-time and it becomes "This is Deckard telling a story of events that have already occurred."

If I was watching a film I'd never seen before about, say, a dude who robs banks for a living and in the beginning it opened with the main character saying "This was the first bank I robbed, the first of many", or some shit like that, then I would know that the person survived, the events on the screen have already occurred in the context of that film's world and timeline, and that the character was recounting the tale to an unseen audience.

Don't get me wrong, I love the theatrical cut... it's the version I grew up with. I just prefer the Director's/Final Cut slightly.


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Originally Posted by Det. Bullock View Post
Alien wasn't written with a voiceover in mind, Blade Runner was.
No it wasn't. Certain versions of the original scripts included voiceovers but both Scott and Ford abhorred them - they thought it completely changed the atmosphere of the film. The producers and financial backers re-inserted the voiceover well into post production.
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:48 PM   #1565
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With all this talk about "Narration vs No Narration" and which version being "better" (which I like the discussion by the way), I found this:


As a newbie to all things Blade Runner, hearing Harrison Ford talk about the narration (at aprox 3:15) is interesting

Does this help anybody's case with being FOR or AGAINST the narration?

At 3:15 Ford says stuff like, "I was contracted to do a voice over narration..." and stuff about the guy on a portable typewriter shushing Ford away, literally writing the narration while Ford waits. Ford goes on to say, "I didn't think a voice over was necessary"

This is probably old news to all of you here. But I find it (the battle of voice over vs no voice over) new and exciting.
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:51 PM   #1566
Det. Bullock Det. Bullock is offline
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Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins View Post
No it wasn't. Certain versions of the original scripts included voiceovers but both Scott and Ford abhorred them - they thought it completely changed the atmosphere of the film. The producers and financial backers re-inserted the voiceover well into post production.
The producers always wanted to give an oldtimey feel to the movie with a voice over and the movie was written (and in part shot) accordingly, the problem was that Scott insisted in taking it out while they were in the middle of shooting it, and also changed his mind on the photography, ando also on the fact that Deckard was human (in the short novel or long short story or whatever as in the script was more of a red herring to underline how emotionally detatched the protagonist had become) and this led to various clash on sets with the DOP, the producers and Ford himself, this mixed to the fact that Scott didn't know how to deal with the american crew without coming off as a gigantic douchebag led to Scott being kicked out.
While the producers at first decided to try and have the movie without voiceover (the workprint version) it became clear that a large part of the plot became incomprehensible that way so they had to rewrite the voiceover in a hurry.
Could it have been better?
Possibily, but the same can be said for the insanely treacly and anvilicious ending of Metropolis, but that doesn't make the movie less of a classic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eiknarf View Post
With all this talk about "Narration vs No Narration" and which version being "better" (which I like the discussion by the way), I found this:

Editing Blade Runner - YouTube

As a newbie to all things Blade Runner, hearing Harrison Ford talk about the narration (at aprox 3:15) is interesting

Does this help anybody's case with being FOR or AGAINST the narration?

At 3:15 Ford says stuff like, "I was contracted to do a voice over narration..." and stuff about the guy on a portable typewriter shushing Ford away, literally writing the narration while Ford waits. Ford goes on to say, "I didn't think a voice over was necessary"

This is probably old news to all of you here. But I find it (the battle of voice over vs no voice over) new and exciting.
An actor is not necessarily aware of certain issues, and let's not forget he was who went to the producers to have Scott kicked out in the first place because Scott decided to make his character a replicant without telling him.

Last edited by Det. Bullock; 03-08-2014 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:53 PM   #1567
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Originally Posted by Det. Bullock View Post
The producers always wanted to give an oldtimey feel to the movie with a voice over and the movie was written accordingly, the problem was that Scott insisted in taking it out while they were in the middle of shooting it, and also changed his mind on the photography, ando also on the fact that Deckard was human (in the short novel or long short story or whatever as in the script was more of a red herring to underline how emotionally detatched the protagonist had become) and this led to various clash on sets with the DOP, the producers and Ford himself, this mixed to the fact that Scott didn't know how to treat with the american crew led to Scott being kicked out.
While the producers at first decided to try and have the movie without voiceover (the workprint version) it became clear that a large part of the plot became incomprehensible that way so they had to rewrite the voiceover in a hurry.
Could it have been better?
Possibily, but the same can be said for the treacly ending of Metropolis, but that doesn't make the movie less of a classic.



An actor is not necessarily aware of certain issues, and let's not forget he was who went to the producers to have Scott kicked out in the first place because Scott decided to make his character a replicant without telling him.
For oldtimey read - noir Future Noir even..
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:59 PM   #1568
Det. Bullock Det. Bullock is offline
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Originally Posted by JimDiGriz View Post
For oldtimey read - noir Future Noir even..
Yep, but I wanted to be more explicit about the kind of noir I was referring to, even Insomnia is a noir if you think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins View Post
No, not necessarily (although in the case of Blade Runner I think it does rob the film of some degree of subtlety, but to each his own), but to me it implies that the occurrences on screen are a recounting of past events told to an anonymous audience. This isn't a 3rd person narration as read by someone not in the film, it is the voice of Deckard. When suddenly Deckard says something like "They don't advertise for killers in the newspaper. That was my profession" in the midst of a scene it completely shifts my perception of the film. To me, that sort of narration prevents me from being an invisible 3rd person observer of the plot as it unfurls in real-time and it becomes "This is Deckard telling a story of events that have already occurred."

If I was watching a film I'd never seen before about, say, a dude who robs banks for a living and in the beginning it opened with the main character saying "This was the first bank I robbed, the first of many", or some shit like that, then I would know that the person survived, the events on the screen have already occurred in the context of that film's world and timeline, and that the character was recounting the tale to an unseen audience.

Don't get me wrong, I love the theatrical cut... it's the version I grew up with. I just prefer the Director's/Final Cut slightly.
Not necessarily tension comes from not knowing if a character will survive, death is not the only source of tension when it comes to the destiny of a character, otherwise there wouldn't be any novels with a first person narrator like Moby Dick or Robinson Crusoe.

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Old 03-08-2014, 04:26 PM   #1569
Stinky-Dinkins Stinky-Dinkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eiknarf View Post
With all this talk about "Narration vs No Narration" and which version being "better" (which I like the discussion by the way), I found this:

Editing Blade Runner - YouTube

As a newbie to all things Blade Runner, hearing Harrison Ford talk about the narration (at aprox 3:15) is interesting

Does this help anybody's case with being FOR or AGAINST the narration?

At 3:15 Ford says stuff like, "I was contracted to do a voice over narration..." and stuff about the guy on a portable typewriter shushing Ford away, literally writing the narration while Ford waits. Ford goes on to say, "I didn't think a voice over was necessary"

This is probably old news to all of you here. But I find it (the battle of voice over vs no voice over) new and exciting.

Yeah, the film as Scott had originally cut it performed so abysmally with test audiences in screenings that the producers got spooked and felt compelled to recut the film several times... and they themselves hated it from day one with a passion. That's why things turned out the way they did in the theatrical incarnation (with the "happy ending," the voiceover as it eventually appeared, the lack of a unicorn dream sequence, etc.), they wrested control of the film from Scott and tried to "improve" it with countless edits.

Here's something you might find interesting, it's the producers' notes from one of the test screenings (the J.P. and B.Y. to the left of the notes represent the impressions of Jerry Perenchio and Bud Yorkin respectively, who were both co producers.)

[Show spoiler]


It's funny that even the producers, who were eventually responsible for the edits as they appeared in the theatrical version, didn't like even like the narration. They felt like Ford was monotone and sounded listless (which made sense after it was revealed he did the voice over after Scott had been yanked from the film, and didn't want to do it at all).

Luckily you don't really have to be "For or against it" in a sense, because every version is out there for everyone to enjoy (unlike Star Wars, for example.) That's what makes Scott so great, even though he despied the theatrical version he insisted it be released in its original form because he knew it had a dedicated following and that as a piece of film history it was important for it to exist in the highest quality possible for posterity's sake.

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Originally Posted by Det. Bullock View Post
Not necessarily tension comes from not knowing if a character will survive, death is not the only source of tension when it comes to the destiny of a character, otherwise there wouldn't be any novels with a first person narrator like Moby Dick or Robinson Crusoe.
I absolutely agree, I wasn't saying one style was necessarily better or worse - just that it changes the complexion of the story-telling completely. It's lends an entirely different perspective to the events as they unfold on-screen.
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:52 PM   #1570
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The biggest problem I have with the voiceover is the narrative perspective. A single voiceover implies that we're seeing the story from that character's perspective. But in Blade Runner we get multiple perspectives. I find this very jarring, especially at the outset- Deckard's nowhere to be found in the opening scene, and then the scene after it he shows up and starts narrating. It's like, where were you last scene?

I think voiceover can work in a multiple perspective movie, but only if you're working with multiple voiceovers, like in The Thin Red Line.

Also, I feel as a device for evoking the noir genre it's kind of weak. So many classic noirs lack voiceover --The Maltese Falcon, The Big Sleep, The Third Man, et al-- that when I hear a "noir voiceover" I think more of noir parodies than actual noir itself.

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Old 03-08-2014, 05:46 PM   #1571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Bullock View Post
An actor is not necessarily aware of certain issues, and let's not forget he was who went to the producers to have Scott kicked out in the first place because Scott decided to make his character a replicant without telling him.
Technically Ridley and Michael Deeley were both fired from the picture on July 11, 1981. The reason? A clause in their contracts that stated if they went over budget by X amount, they would be removed. They never left the picture, Scott went to London to shoot inserts and the producers were stonewalled by the editor so they couldn't go anywhere near the film. They were never negligent in their actions for the film to go over budget, it was just one of those things that settled down a few weeks later.

The re-shoots were necessary because the original scenes filmed came out far too dark for Ridley's taste. I'd expect most directors would want a do-over if they had unsuitable results.

And Stinky-Dinkins, there a few film-noirs with voice-overs that are from characters that don't survive to the end of the film. The inclusion of a VO doesn't always mean they make it!
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:58 PM   #1572
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And Stinky-Dinkins, there a few film-noirs with voice-overs that are from characters that don't survive to the end of the film. The inclusion of a VO doesn't always mean they make it!
One film noir like that is...

[Show spoiler]Sunset Boulevard !


However I agree with solaris72 that by the time Blade Runner was made the hard boiled VO felt more like self-parody.
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:59 PM   #1573
Det. Bullock Det. Bullock is offline
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Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
The re-shoots were necessary because the original scenes filmed came out far too dark for Ridley's taste. I'd expect most directors would want a do-over if they had unsuitable results.
The way I heard it he had a bad fallout with the DoP over this, if it's true he must have been really rude about it.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:23 PM   #1574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
And Stinky-Dinkins, there a few film-noirs with voice-overs that are from characters that don't survive to the end of the film. The inclusion of a VO doesn't always mean they make it!
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:13 PM   #1575
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Regarding the narrated version, for me the whole mood is ruined during the final moment as
[Show spoiler]Batty dies, when after his head drops
, suddenly this booming voiceover comes on. It always took me out of the moment, long before any of us knew of the emergence of a director's cut. It's a moving moment and needs silence to convey that. The scene is greatly improved without the voiceover, in my view.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:12 AM   #1576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Det. Bullock View Post
What's the problem with the voiceover?
It doesn't say anything obvious, it gives us details on the world which people cannot possibly guess and it gives the movie a retrņ atmosphere that I really like.
Scott recut the movie paradoxically not because he wanted to make it deeper, by his own admission he wanted to make a piece of entertainment, that's why he threw away all subtext in favour of a (I'm quoting him) "Twilight zone twist", with the FC he even changed the color grading because he had a nasty fight with the DOP on the set because he (Scott) decided to scrap an entre day of filming because he changed if mind about the lightning used.
The guy has shown more than once of having little to no sense of what makes a good story or screeplay, while sometimes he hit the target (like with the Kingodm of Heaven DC) other times he missed the target (think of Prometheus).
What's the problem with it? Well...how 'bout, "Sushi...that's what my ex-wife used to call me...cold fish." Real humdinger there. haha Seriously, for my money, the narration only does three things:

- Point out the obvious
- Explain things that don't require explanation
- Distract from the beauty of the visuals
- Apparently bore Harrison Ford half to death while reading it

Voiceover can be done very, very well. Apocalypse Now has an incredible voiceover that genuinely adds volumes to the experience. So does GoodFellas. So does A Clockwork Orange. So does Sunset Boulevard. On and on. Blade Runner, on the other hand, has a useless voiceover that does little to harken back to film noir, as was obviously the intent, and much to make me want to turn it off and watch a version that doesn't include the voiceover.

Again, just my view, and I'm glad the Theatrical Cut is also available.


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I'm no billionaire and my bank account is lumped toghether with that of my brothers (we have a small family business), so forgive me if I don't want to spend 50 Euros on a box set in which there is only one disc that interests me and moreover with lower quality than the European one that costs even more.
I didn't realize you had to be a billionaire to spend that kind of money on a BD set. I must be a billionaire several times over...and to think, I didn't even realize it!
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Old 03-11-2014, 01:34 PM   #1577
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BLADE RUNNER is the most Horrible, dumbest, retarded film ever released.....
[Show spoiler]Just playing guys, it is indeed a great film and the transfer is a beauty!
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Old 03-11-2014, 01:36 PM   #1578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rz_Samurai View Post
BLADE RUNNER is the most Horrible & dumbest film ever released.....
[Show spoiler]Just playing guys, it is indeed a great film and the transfer is a beauty!
Fixed your post(as pointless as it is), to be a little less abrasive. I'm hoping you go back and do the same.
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Old 03-11-2014, 01:59 PM   #1579
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lol, I did not mean to come out rude or make fun of the film. I enjoy the film, as i have it in my collection.

It was just a joke and i wanted to see peoples reaction .

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Fixed your post(as pointless as it is), to be a little less abrasive. I'm hoping you go back and do the same.
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Old 03-11-2014, 02:08 PM   #1580
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Quote:
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lol, I did not mean to come out rude or make fun of the film. I enjoy the film, as i have it in my collection.

It was just a joke and i wanted to see peoples reaction .
Having your opinion of a film is fine. The wording you used, clearly, you don't understand how some can find that to be insulting.
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