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Old 08-14-2013, 09:02 PM   #221
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
Just turn off the 3D then and you will see the variable floating windows. especially noticeable in the air sequences.
I'm not in the practice of watching 3D BDs in 2D but I will check this out at some point; thanks.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:30 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post
I never said there was, and you're apparently misunderstanding my baseline meaning/point.

I said that 2D backwards compatibility is built into the 3D spec. Regardless of whether there is a menu option or not, you can see 2D from a 3D BD by turning 3D off in either your display or player. And again, what the original poster is experiencing with his PC's or Mac's BD-playing app remains to be seen: S/he has yet to return and post again so that may be a "YMMV" situation. But that member should be able to see a 2D presentation from the 3D BD by simply turning that functionality off and thereby getting the PQ benefits of this (supposedly) different/better encode. But we're not even sure that's what that member is after, since you chimed in for them before that individual ever responded.
I think I did misunderstand your point, yep. All 3D Blu-rays have a 2D version encoded on there, that's a fact, Jack. But if the member in question could simply turn off the 3D in their display or player, why would they have to do something as drastic as forcing a 2D rip using AnyDVD to strip out the 3D?

My wider point is that we've got to bear in mind that some people want to see these new transfers on their main TVs but they don't have a 3D BD/TV setup, and if the disc doesn't have a user selectable 2D option then said people are up the proverbial creek without a paddle. That's because a non-selectable 3D platter won't play on 2D BD/TV gear at all, as I'm sure you know. I just tried Top Gun and got the following message: "There is no 2D playback via this disc", unfortunately circumventing the ability of such users to "simply turn that functionality off" at the display level.

It's a perverse irony that only 3D users are able to easily watch these non-selectable encodes in 2D, because we're the people least likely to do so!

Last edited by Geoff D; 08-15-2013 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:54 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I think I did misunderstand your point, yep. All 3D Blu-rays have a 2D version encoded on there, that's a fact, Jack. But if the member in question could simply turn off the 3D in their display or player, why would they have to do something as drastic as forcing a 2D rip using AnyDVD to strip out the 3D?
For the umpteenth time: There is no separate encode. And we don't know the motivations of the member who posted the original question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
My wider point is that we've got to bear in mind that some people want to see these new transfers on their main TVs but they don't have a 3D BD/TV setup, and if the disc doesn't have a user selectable 2D option then said people are up the proverbial creek without a paddle. That's because a non-selectable 3D platter won't play on 2D BD/TV gear at all, as I'm sure you know. I just tried Top Gun and got the following message: "There is no 2D playback via this disc", unfortunately circumventing the ability of such users to "simply turn that functionality off" at the display level.

It's a perverse irony that only 3D users are able to easily watch these non-selectable encodes in 2D, because we're the people least likely to do so!
I don't understand the motivations of some/you to use one release as a point of departure/cause celebre. It's not my understanding that there is a broad trend towards new transfers/encodes being done for 3D presentations that are then released in a 3D combo wherein the 2D disc is bereft of the new encode and only the 3D disc--"downmixed" to 2D--features the new presentation of the movie.

The bold portion of your quoted post is wrong to my experience. Yes, I get the error message you quote when I turn off 3D in my OPPO BDP-93 BD player. But when I restore it yet turn off 3D in my Mitsu WD-82738 display I can watch the Top Gun 3D BD in 2D just fine. Please include your display and player models if you respond. I have Tosh and Mitsu displays and OPPO, Sony and Panny 3D BD players and I have found the foregoing to be true for all player/display combinations.

Last edited by Paul.R.S; 08-20-2013 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 08-15-2013, 08:54 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post
For the umpteenth time: There is no separate encode. And we don't know the motivations of the member who posted the original question.
Bloody hell, even when I'm agreeing with you I'm wrong. Admittedly, my choice of words gave you that room to groove, as "2D version" instead of "2D encode" would've been better (please note that I did not use the word "separate" or derivates thereof) but I'm fully aware that the 2D version is part of the 3D encode, and that it's present on every 3D disc (menu selectable or not) because it's part of the MVC encoding spec. Yes? No? Maybe?

Quote:
I don't understand the motivations of some/you to use one release as a point of departure/cause celebre. It's not my understanding that there is a broad trend towards new transfers/encodes being done for 3D presentations that are then released in a 3D combo wherein the 2D disc is bereft of the new encode and only the 3D disc--"downmixed" to 2D--features the new presentation of the movie.
Hmmm. Jurassic Park and Top Gun are two very high profile examples that say otherwise. And don't forget Titanic; while it is true that the separate 2D and 3D Blu-rays both benefitted from the new 4K transfer, only the 3D had the taller 1.78 version which a lot of people wanted to see irrespective of the 3D playback. But that disc doesn't have a selectable 2D option, so folks with 2D-only gear were shit out of luck. Which leads me to....

Quote:
The bold portion of your quoted post is wrong to my experience. Yes, I get the error message you quote when I turn off 3D in my OPPO BDP-93 BD player. But when I restore it yet turn off 3D in my Mitsu WD-82738 display I can watch the Top Gun 3D BD in 2D just fine. Please include your display and player models if you respond. I have Tosh and Mitsu displays and OPPO, Sony And Panny 3D BD players and I have found the foregoing to be true for all player/display combinations.
I don't know if you're missing my point or I'm just not understanding yours, but I'm not referencing 3D-capable folks who can simply turn off the 3D presentation once it's playing. In my previous post I reiterated the point about 2D-only equipment chains (BD/TV) several times. If I spin Top Gun 3D in my backroom combo of Sony BDPS373 BD and Sony KDL37V4000 TV - both are resolutely 2D - then there is no possibility for playback whatsoever. There is no 3D version to turn off because the disc simply will not play, and there are no 3D settings that I can adjust to make it play because neither bit of kit has any such settings.

There is one way around this for 2D TV owners which is to buy a 3D Blu-ray player, because it'll see the 3D content but ignore the stereo extension and simply output the 2D portion of the MVC encode, whether it's selectable or not. Problem solved! Heck, given the ubiquity of 3D compatibility these days it's fair to assume that most people have a 3D BD player by default, right? Wrong.

There are still plenty of 2D-only models on the market. Some people just plain don't want to have anything to do with 3D. And some people have 2D decks and 2D TVs that they're perfectly happy with, and don't see why they should have to buy a new player for a feature that they can't technically use, just so they can see these new transfers. Hence folks taking matters into their own hands and using their computers to rip the disc and make their own 2D Blu-ray versions.


Right, strike all of that because I was dead wrong about 3D BD players allowing playback of stereo movies on 2D TVs. I had tried it with a Sony 3D demo disc on my 37V4000 with both a Panny DMPBDT110 and a Sony BDPS4100 (both are 3D decks, firmware up to date) and it simply played in 2D without any need to select the 2D option. But there must be some sort of automatic 2D selection with that disc, because when I tried Top Gun 3D later I got the same "There is no 2D playback via this disc" message that I saw on the 2D BD player. I also tried the same disc on the S4100 player on a friend's Sony KDL42W653 2D TV, and got the same result.

Bottom line: 3D movie discs that don't offer a selectable 2D version cannot be played on 2D TVs. Most of the time it's not an issue because the 3D and separate 2D releases are of the same quality, but with a select few films (albeit quite high profile ones) the new or alternate transfer is only on a 'locked' 3D platter, thereby disenfranchising the fans of those films who only own 2D kit but who want to see those new transfers. Check the UK Top Gun 3D thread if you don't believe me, there's a fair few folks who were quite disappointed that the 3D version won't play on 2D TVs.

Last edited by Geoff D; 08-16-2013 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:28 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Bloody hell, even when I'm agreeing with you I'm wrong. Admittedly, my choice of words gave you that room to groove, as "2D version" instead of "2D encode" would've been better (please note that I did not use the word "separate" or derivates thereof) but I'm fully aware that the 2D version is part of the 3D encode, and that it's present on every 3D disc (menu selectable or not) because it's part of the MVC encoding spec. Yes? No? Maybe?
Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Hmmm. Jurassic Park and Top Gun are two very high profile examples that say otherwise. And don't forget Titanic; while it is true that the separate 2D and 3D Blu-rays both benefitted from the new 4K transfer, only the 3D had the taller 1.78 version which a lot of people wanted to see irrespective of the 3D playback. But that disc doesn't have a selectable 2D option, so folks with 2D-only gear were shit out of luck. Which leads me to....
This issue can be complicated enough without muddying the waters with another issue entirely, namely the Titanic "IMAX" 3D aspect ratio. JC wanted it in 1.78 for IMAX 3D (for home vid; I am aware that the non-IMAX 3D theatrical presentations of Titanic, such as RealD 3D, were 2.35). And he obviously chose that aspect for the 3D BD presentation: JC linked 3D and 1.78 based upon his preferences for how he wanted folks to experience the film. If for whatever reason folks want to disassociate 3D with that AR to experience the latter "a la carte" despite the director apparently wanting the film to only be experienced 1.78 when in 3D (so as to arguably heighten the 3D effect), then frankly that arguable "shit out of luck" status is that audiences' problem. Which leads me to . . .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
[Show spoiler]I don't know if you're missing my point or I'm just not understanding yours, but I'm not referencing 3D-capable folks who can simply turn off the 3D presentation once it's playing. In my previous post I reiterated the point about 2D-only equipment chains (BD/TV) several times. If I spin Top Gun 3D in my backroom combo of Sony BDPS373 BD and Sony KDL37V4000 TV - both are resolutely 2D - then there is no possibility for playback whatsoever. There is no 3D version to turn off because the disc simply will not play, and there are no 3D settings that I can adjust to make it play because neither bit of kit has any such settings.

There is one way around this for 2D TV owners which is to buy a 3D Blu-ray player, because it'll see the 3D content but ignore the stereo extension and simply output the 2D portion of the MVC encode, whether it's selectable or not. Problem solved! Heck, given the ubiquity of 3D compatibility these days it's fair to assume that most people have a 3D BD player by default, right? Wrong.

There are still plenty of 2D-only models on the market. Some people just plain don't want to have anything to do with 3D. And some people have 2D decks and 2D TVs that they're perfectly happy with, and don't see why they should have to buy a new player for a feature that they can't technically use, just so they can see these new transfers. Hence folks taking matters into their own hands and using their computers to rip the disc and make their own 2D Blu-ray versions.


Right, strike all of that because I was dead wrong about 3D BD players allowing playback of stereo movies on 2D TVs. I had tried it with a Sony 3D demo disc on my 37V4000 with both a Panny DMPBDT110 and a Sony BDPS4100 (both are 3D decks, firmware up to date) and it simply played in 2D without any need to select the 2D option. But there must be some sort of automatic 2D selection with that disc, because when I tried Top Gun 3D later I got the same "There is no 2D playback via this disc" message that I saw on the 2D BD player. I also tried the same disc on the S4100 player on a friend's Sony KDL42W653 2D TV, and got the same result.

Bottom line: 3D movie discs that don't offer a selectable 2D version cannot be played on 2D TVs. Most of the time it's not an issue because the 3D and separate 2D releases are of the same quality, but with a select few films (albeit quite high profile ones) the new or alternate transfer is only on a 'locked' 3D platter, thereby disenfranchising the fans of those films who only own 2D kit but who want to see those new transfers. Check the UK Top Gun 3D thread if you don't believe me, there's a fair few folks who were quite disappointed that the 3D version won't play on 2D TVs.
I now understand that your point is about 2D playback of 3D BDs on 2D gear. I can't test that because all of the BD players in my household are 3D-capable.

"Sorry," but I am again unsympathetic: You're essentially arguing that folks who "don't want to have anything to do with 3D" ought to nevertheless be able to enjoy all of the (heavy quotes) "functionality" that 3D BDs have to offer despite their perhaps refusing to buy a 3D BD player.

Bottom line from my perspective: 3D has been around for several years now, over a timeframe that has seen the bottom fall out of BD player pricing. If someone is that keen on seeing a better encode of, say, Jurassic Park or Top Gun but refuses to spend the small amount of coin it takes to own a 3D BD player these days--a quick search on Amazon reveals that there are Panny and Sony decks as cheap as $70--because of some righteously indignant anti-3D stance, then they are making their own bed whilst posting in online discussion fora about their refusal to lay in it.

My reading of what is perhaps your broader point is taken: Why can't the studios present that superior encode on a 2D disc in the 3D combo pack since there is already a 2D BD in there anyway? But on the other hand, we both know damn well that the studios frequently take the path of cheapest, least resistance in these regards. I ultimately feel that the audience you're arguing for is exacerbating their own "problem" with their ostensible refusal to just buy a damn 3D BD player. I've bought six players in seven years, including two $500 OPPOs. On an only-working-some-of-the-time actor's income. If these people you're arguing for are into BD enough to be wanting to see better encodes, I'd posit that at some point over the past three years or so they could and by now should have ponied up the ~$80 it takes to buy a 3D BD player. That's a "problem" that in my opinion takes more effort to b*tch about than just resolve.

Finally, if your response to this last para is to refer (me) back to the last two paras of your prior post in which you recount how--even with a 3D BD player--you were not able to get 2D playback of the 3D Top Gun BD on a 2D display, my only response at this point is . On a Panny DMP-BDT350 3D BD player connected to a Tosh 34HDX82 (an approximately 10 year-old 34" CRT 2D display), I can watch the Top Gun 3D BD in 2D by simply turning 3D off in the player. Apparently YMMV.

Last edited by Paul.R.S; 09-03-2013 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Typo correction
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:34 AM   #226
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I bought this the day it came out, but have yet to watch it. I've never seen Top Gun but I've heard so much about it...

I think I'll watch this soon.
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Old 09-12-2013, 08:22 AM   #227
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post
Finally, if your response to this last para is to refer (me) back to the last two paras of your prior post in which you recount how--even with a 3D BD player--you were not able to get 2D playback of the 3D Top Gun BD on a 2D display, my only response at this point is . On a Panny DMP-BDT350 3D BD player connected to a Tosh 34HDX82 (an approximately 10 year-old 34" CRT 2D display), I can watch the Top Gun 3D BD in 2D by simply turning 3D off in the player. Apparently YMMV.
Here's an interesting discovery for the few who care about this sub-topic regarding the above which leads me to stand corrected/modified:

When I made this post back in January in the Toy Story 3D Trilogy thread regarding being able to play a Disney 3D BD in 2D on my Toshiba display, I had my Sony BDP-S470 upstairs connected to that Tosh. When I posted the quoted text above earlier this month, I assumed the Top Gun 3D BD would behave similarly on my Panny DMP-BDT350 as with the Sony. I have swapped these two players' places since I made the post in the other thread back in January.

It does not. Using the Panny, the Top Gun 3D BD will not play in 2D on my Tosh. Neither do Titanic 3D or Tintin 3D (also Par titles). Nor does Toy Story 2 3D.

However, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 3D CAN be played in 2D. And unlike (another Warner title) The Polar Express 3D BD, Harry Potter does not feature a menu-selectable 2D option, so that is not the explanation.

It gets messier: Panasonic changed their players' GUI in 2011. On my Panny--which is a 2010 model--the home menu features options listed down the left side of the screen (unlike the cross in the center of the screen starting in 2011, giving more attention to streaming options). The choice at the top of the list is "Playback." Under that is "Top Menu." After specifying 2D in the player's 3D settings options (whereby I can either chose to have the player default to 2D, 3D or prompt me to make a choice every time I load a 3D BD) and loading Harry Potter, I must choose Top Menu which takes me to the disc's main menu from which I can choose to play the movie . . . and it does so in 2D. However, if I chose Playback from that player menu I get the error message.

Ergo, my Sony and Panny 3D BD players behave differently with 3D BDs upon attempting 2D playback when connected to the same display. So it appears there are player behavior differences that make any broad "bottom line" assertions, needless to further say, very problematic. At the very least, someone with a pre-3D, 2010 or earlier (before the menu revamp) Panny BD player such as a DMP-BD55, BD65 or BD85--connected to a 2D display--so as to not introduce other variables would be needed in order to further test this.

Last edited by Paul.R.S; 09-12-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:46 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by MasterChief3624 View Post
I bought this the day it came out, but have yet to watch it. I've never seen Top Gun but I've heard so much about it...

I think I'll watch this soon.
Wow. Be sure to come back and let folks know what you thought after all the years of hearing about it, Master Chief. "I want some butts!!"
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Old 09-12-2013, 08:12 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by MasterChief3624 View Post
I bought this the day it came out, but have yet to watch it. I've never seen Top Gun but I've heard so much about it...

I think I'll watch this soon.
Wow! You've never seen Top Gun, it's one of my favorite movies although it's not the best movie I've seen. Have you ever heard the soundtrack?
Avengers: Infinity War has a 4K DI Deadpool 4K DI
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Last edited by Canada; 09-12-2013 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:05 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Canada View Post
Wow! You've never seen Top Gun, it's one of my favorite movies although it's not the best movie I've seen. Have you ever heard the soundtrack?
I only saw top gun for the first time last year lmao and with repeated viewings I've come to the conclusion that it's a classic and one my favorite movies of all time
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:19 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post
Here's an interesting discovery for the few who care about this sub-topic regarding the above which leads me to stand corrected/modified:

When I made this post back in January in the Toy Story 3D Trilogy thread regarding being able to play a Disney 3D BD in 2D on my Toshiba display, I had my Sony BDP-S470 upstairs connected to that Tosh. When I posted the quoted text above earlier this month, I assumed the Top Gun 3D BD would behave similarly on my Panny DMP-BDT350 as with the Sony. I have swapped these two players' places since I made the post in the other thread back in January.

It does not. Using the Panny, the Top Gun 3D BD will not play in 2D on my Tosh. Neither do Titanic 3D or Tintin 3D (also Par titles). Nor does Toy Story 2 3D.

However, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 3D CAN be played in 2D. And unlike (another Warner title) The Polar Express 3D BD, Harry Potter does not feature a menu-selectable 2D option, so that is not the explanation.

It gets messier: Panasonic changed their players' GUI in 2011. On my Panny--which is a 2010 model--the home menu features options listed down the left side of the screen (unlike the cross in the center of the screen starting in 2011, giving more attention to streaming options). The choice at the top of the list is "Playback." Under that is "Top Menu." After specifying 2D in the player's 3D settings options (whereby I can either chose to have the player default to 2D, 3D or prompt me to make a choice every time I load a 3D BD) and loading Harry Potter, I must choose Top Menu which takes me to the disc's main menu from which I can choose to play the movie . . . and it does so in 2D. However, if I chose Playback from that player menu I get the error message.

Ergo, my Sony and Panny 3D BD players behave differently with 3D BDs upon attempting 2D playback when connected to the same display. So it appears there are player behavior differences that make any broad "bottom line" assertions, needless to further say, very problematic. At the very least, someone with a pre-3D, 2010 or earlier (before the menu revamp) Panny BD player such as a DMP-BD55, BD65 or BD85--connected to a 2D display--so as to not introduce other variables would be needed in order to further test this.
I wasn't lying, was I? It's a lil' bit trickier than simply assuming that every 3D player will play a 'locked' 3D disc on a 2D display, which is why I've persued your posts with such zeal, and I'm grateful for your feedback. You infer that your Sony S470 will still play 'locked' titles like Titanic and Top Gun on your 2D Toshiba TV, so perhaps the more recent Sony decks have also been changed in that regard, as I couldn't get playback of Top Gun on a Sony BDPS5100 on a 2D display at all.

Even before you made post #194 I got the feeling that you considered the complaints of non-3D folks to be those of Luddites who didn't want to get with the program, but now you know it's not quite as simple as that. Even if people get a 3D player, some folks will still be shit out of luck when it comes to viewing these new transfers, and I'm not gonna be the one to tell them to stop complaining and buy a new TV just so they can watch the non-DNR'ed Top Gun or the 1.78 version of Titanic. It'd be nice if they were made available to everyone.

Last edited by Geoff D; 10-25-2013 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:52 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I wasn't lying, was I? It's a lil' bit trickier than simply assuming that every 3D player will play a 'locked' 3D disc on a 2D display, which is why I've persued your posts with such zeal, and I'm grateful for your feedback. You infer that your Sony S470 will still play 'locked' titles like Titanic and Top Gun on your 2D Toshiba TV, so perhaps the more recent Sony decks have also been changed in that regard, as I couldn't get playback of Top Gun on a Sony BDPS5100 on a 2D display at all.

Even before you made post #194 I got the feeling that you considered the complaints of non-3D folks to be those of Luddites who didn't want to get with the program, but now you know it's not quite as simple as that. Even if people get a 3D player, some folks will still be shit out of luck when it comes to viewing these new transfers, and I'm not gonna be the one to tell them to stop complaining and buy a new TV just so they can watch the non-DNR'ed Top Gun or the 1.78 version of Titanic. It'd be nice if they were made available to everyone.
Geoff:

I disagree with some of your (overly-personalized) characterizations of my positions, which I think I've been repeatedly very clear about.

I never said you are lying/called you a liar. What I have said is the equivalent of YMMV. You, on the other hand, have made the problematic, broad assertion of a "bottom line." The reality is that neither of us was 100% correct: My former understanding of facile backwards compat of 3D BDs and your totalizing statement to the contrary are both wrong. You said "3D movie discs that don't offer a selectable 2D version cannot be played on 2D TVs." This is simply not a true statement. Call it parsing truthiness if you wish, but my assertion of YMMV is more accurate than your "bottom line."

I also feel you are casting yourself as spokesman for a minority subset population of folks who are complaining about lack of access to superior encodes, trumping up the issue to larger proportions than it deserves in the process. The U.K. complainers in the thread you referenced weeks ago notwithstanding, you and I are the only two people still discussing this. Not one member of this site has come into this thread since our back-and-forth began to say how chagrined they are about the issue you're championing. It may make you feel better to misrepresent my position as purportedly thinking of people as "Luddites" but that doesn't make it accurate.

What I have said and continue to say is that I find it very problematic for these people you're championing who want to have nothing to do with 3D who nevertheless want reap some of the benefits of what 3D has brought us. The practical reality/"bottom line" is that new encodes of, say, Jurassic Park and Top Gun would not have happened if it weren't for the 3D re-releases of those films occasioned by 3D doing so well (look at the Gravity grosses!). This desire to cherry pick benefits is what I take issue with.

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Old 10-25-2013, 09:55 PM   #233
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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Sorry for the "lying" bit, that's one of my favourite lines from Ghostbusters II (when Ray shows the guys the ooze underground) and the sarcasm is always lost on the screen. Anyhoo, I'll leave the technological nitty-gritty there if you will, as we've both learned something I think.

As for your last para: regarding my disproportionate sense of outrage, I think it comes not so much from me seeing myself as some sort of champion for the unwashed 2D masses, but that it took the 3D process to generate these new transfers in the first place.

I understand that you take umbrage at 2D folks wanting to "reap some of the benefit of what 3D has brought us", but I'm pissed off at the wider issue, which is that it shouldn't have been due to 3D that these classics got newly transferred at all. Other studios do 4K remasters as a matter of course, whereas Paramount (Top Gun) and Universal (Jurassic Park) only prise open their wallets when they think they can make some extra coin out of it.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:36 PM   #234
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Sorry for the "lying" bit . . .
Thank you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
As for your last para: regarding my disproportionate sense of outrage, I think it comes not so much from me seeing myself as some sort of champion for the unwashed 2D masses, but that it took the 3D process to generate these new transfers in the first place.

I understand that you take umbrage at 2D folks wanting to "reap some of the benefit of what 3D has brought us", but I'm pissed off at the wider issue, which is that it shouldn't have been due to 3D that these classics got newly transferred at all. Other studios do 4K remasters as a matter of course, whereas Paramount (Top Gun) and Universal (Jurassic Park) only prise open their wallets when they think they can make some extra coin out of it.
Although I share your indignation, my issue is what I would call a lack of context. I agree: It arguably shouldn't have taken 3D for these new transfers to be struck. But as I say in my post 194, this is business as usual for the studios.

Let's look at how exactly the studios would execute what you're asking for: Strike a new 2D encode for a title to release a la carte (which means a new SKU to differentiate it from the standalone 2D BD already on the market) and also include that 2D BD in the combo pack . . . that they're already putting a 2D BD in. I may not like it but this just doesn't make "business sense." It is the 3D grosses that are subsidizing the p & l behind the new 3D transfer. I can see the studio position that it is not worth the tedium and expense of also making new 2D discs which are only going to be attractive to a tiny subset of the buying public.

And I'd opine that there would then be folks right here at this Website kvetching about how they "have" to buy the Combo pack just to get the new improved 2D encode. Or that the studio should have done it right the first time.

I tend to look at the need to be grateful that these titles got the improved encodes at all. There are a ton of titles that have not received the quality that they deserve (I just watched The Assassination Of Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford and we've all seen Roger Deakins' cinematog look better than on that disc). And there are even more titles that haven't been released on BD at all! Everything from The Abyss to Waiting To Exhale to What's Love Got To Do With It come to mind.

You mention how many studios strike 4k masters. Well Geoff what about Sony? They're striking tons of 4k masters . . . only to refuse to release them . . . in the U.S. And these are "major" titles: Philadelphia got a BD release in Australia but not the U.S. Disney did the same thing with Quiz Show. And there are other Sony titles which they license to Twilight Time instead of releasing directly for a lower price. As Good As It Gets, The Way We Were and Sleepless In Seattle are examples.

I could go on (and on) with examples. But my fundamental point in this regard is that--even if I set aside my annoyance with folks who can't just stop 3D-bashing and let those who want to enjoy it do so--there are far bigger fish to fry than complaining about one's lack of easier access to a better encode that actually exists on BD. And odds are many of the practically situated folks you are making this idealized world argument for will be buying new displays in the next few years anyway wherein the 3D capability doesn't add anything to the cost of the display?

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Old 10-26-2013, 12:18 AM   #235
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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And I'd opine that there would then be folks right here at this Website kvetching about how they "have" to buy the Combo pack just to get the new improved 2D encode. Or that the studio should have done it right the first time.
Very, very true. I'm fighting for the rights of people who'd just move on to moaning about something else.

Quote:
You mention how many studios strike 4k masters. Well Geoff what about Sony? They're striking tons of 4k masters . . . only to refuse to release them . . . in the U.S. And these are "major" titles: Philadelphia got a BD release in Australia but not the U.S. Disney did the same thing with Quiz Show. And there are other Sony titles which they license to Twilight Time instead of releasing directly for a lower price. As Good As It Gets, The Way We Were and Sleepless In Seattle are examples.
Certain countries getting certain catalogues has been a fact of home video life, but seeing as how it's never been easier to import stuff (not that it was ridiculously difficult 20 years ago) I don't see that as a major concern. It's a shame that On The Waterfront was beautifully remastered but restricted to a locked Region A Criterion release in the US, but thankfully the 1.66 version was released in Italy and elsewhere (with a much roomier encode too).

The TT model is somewhat more unfortunate, but some of those masters have surfaced elsewhere (like AGAIG in Germany) and I'm sure they'll all filter through eventually. Something like Body Double looks and sounds too damned good to keep it restricted to some 3,000 lucky souls.

You're right about some of the 3D remasterings, I should be grateful because if it wasn't for that specific process we wouldn't have them at all. I guess I'm just one of those 'glass half empty' kinda people when it comes to hacks like Paramount and Universal improving their lot. It's hard not to be cynical with a track record as dreadful as theirs...
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:08 AM   #236
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Quote:
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Certain countries getting certain catalogues has been a fact of home video life, but seeing as how it's never been easier to import stuff (not that it was ridiculously difficult 20 years ago) I don't see that as a major concern. It's a shame that On The Waterfront was beautifully remastered but restricted to a locked Region A Criterion release in the US, but thankfully the 1.66 version was released in Italy and elsewhere (with a much roomier encode too).

The TT model is somewhat more unfortunate, but some of those masters have surfaced elsewhere (like AGAIG in Germany) and I'm sure they'll all filter through eventually. Something like Body Double looks and sounds too damned good to keep it restricted to some 3,000 lucky souls.

You're right about some of the 3D remasterings, I should be grateful because if it wasn't for that specific process we wouldn't have them at all. I guess I'm just one of those 'glass half empty' kinda people when it comes to hacks like Paramount and Universal improving their lot. It's hard not to be cynical with a track record as dreadful as theirs...
At least you acknowledge your "glass half empty" mentality. You've also just shown that you have a penchant for having a more sanguine attitude about studio ways and means when it suits you but are more unreasonably critical on the other matters we've discussed.

Case in point, you're conveniently missing the broader point I made about the complete absence of many titles on BD for the sake of pointing to the more specific exception of "[c]ertain countries getting certain catalogues [being] a fact of home video life." That wasn't my point at all. Rather, it was about the many other less-than-ideal transfers out there and the fact that just because 4k masters are being generated doesn't mean they're being released on BD. IMO that's vexing even if Sony is holding back on all those 4k masters for possible 4k BD release in, say, 18 months or so. Also, although I incidentally mentioned releases in other countries the more salient point I apparently was not emphatic enough on is regarding the absence of some titles from BD entirely. What's Love Got To Do With It may be on Region-free BD in the U.K. but, say, Love Jones, Beloved, Jungle Fever, Bad Boys II, Midnight In the Garden Of Good and Evil, Ordinary People and Down In the Delta haven't been released on BD in any country.

You also problematically mention the ease of importing. Well, if I want the supplements--including a typically good Ed Zwick commentary--on The Siege I must get the U.K. BD of that pic. But wait--it's Region-locked. I'm sure you're thinking "just get a Region-free BD player" or a Region mod. But it's interesting how quick you likely are to think that but my argument that (likely anti-3D) folks can upgrade to a 3D display if they really want to watch in 2D these few better encodes only available on 3D BD so badly did not appear to move you. And yeah yeah yeah: displays are more expensive than Region-free players or mods (but I just saw some I think 3D displays at Costco that are cheaper than my $500 Oppo) but it is the principle that is my point.

You're also much less contrary/more sanguine about Twilight Time, saying that that boutique's limited editions will "all filter through eventually." Which sounds like an analog of what I am saying about eventual 3D display purchases by many folks at the end of my last post.

I don't have much more to say about your IMO problematic position on all this other than I'd be far more impressed if even three other members came into the thread and kvetched about how they've lost sleep over not being able to watch Top Gun's improved encode exclusive to the 3D BD in 2D on their current display. It hasn't happened.

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Old 10-28-2013, 11:33 PM   #237
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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Okay, so now you're using my reply to the tangent you went off on to undermine my annoyance with this locked 3D business, and I fell for it hook, line and sinker.

You want me to say I'll throw in the towel? Fine. I'm done discussing this with you. My viewpoints have been thoroughly exsanguinated (see what I did there?) by your lawyerly dissection of my mercurial nature.

Well played, sir. Well played.

Last edited by Geoff D; 10-28-2013 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:47 PM   #238
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Just discovered randomly today that at least Shreks 1 and 2 3D (from the Samsung 3D starter kit) also play in 2D (on the Panny DMP-BDT350). In fact, no combination of "3D Playback Method" ("3D," "2D" or "Select Upon Playback") or "3D Playback Precautions" (on or off) in the player's settings produces any error message or refusal to play at all--the discs always playback in 2D. And like Top Gun these are Paramount discs (Par distribbed DreamWorks discs at the time), including the familiar font and color Par "This playback device is protected under copyright . . ." screen (and the Technicolor logo on the back cover; so even the same studio's authoring house client is apparently making different decisions at different times for different 3D titles--hardly a "lock").

Last edited by Paul.R.S; 11-16-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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