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Old 10-25-2013, 08:52 PM   #201
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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I wasn't lying, was I? It's a lil' bit trickier than simply assuming that every 3D player will play a 'locked' 3D disc on a 2D display, which is why I've persued your posts with such zeal, and I'm grateful for your feedback. You infer that your Sony S470 will still play 'locked' titles like Titanic and Top Gun on your 2D Toshiba TV, so perhaps the more recent Sony decks have also been changed in that regard, as I couldn't get playback of Top Gun on a Sony BDPS5100 on a 2D display at all.

Even before you made post #194 I got the feeling that you considered the complaints of non-3D folks to be those of Luddites who didn't want to get with the program, but now you know it's not quite as simple as that. Even if people get a 3D player, some folks will still be shit out of luck when it comes to viewing these new transfers, and I'm not gonna be the one to tell them to stop complaining and buy a new TV just so they can watch the non-DNR'ed Top Gun or the 1.78 version of Titanic. It'd be nice if they were made available to everyone.
Geoff:

I disagree with some of your (overly-personalized) characterizations of my positions, which I think I've been repeatedly very clear about.

I never said you are lying/called you a liar. What I have said is the equivalent of YMMV. You, on the other hand, have made the problematic, broad assertion of a "bottom line." The reality is that neither of us was 100% correct: My former understanding of facile backwards compat of 3D BDs and your totalizing statement to the contrary are both wrong. You said "3D movie discs that don't offer a selectable 2D version cannot be played on 2D TVs." This is simply not a true statement. Call it parsing truthiness if you wish, but my assertion of YMMV is more accurate than your "bottom line."

I also feel you are casting yourself as spokesman for a minority subset population of folks who are complaining about lack of access to superior encodes, trumping up the issue to larger proportions than it deserves in the process. The U.K. complainers in the thread you referenced weeks ago notwithstanding, you and I are the only two people still discussing this. Not one member of this site has come into this thread since our back-and-forth began to say how chagrined they are about the issue you're championing. It may make you feel better to misrepresent my position as purportedly thinking of people as "Luddites" but that doesn't make it accurate.

What I have said and continue to say is that I find it very problematic for these people you're championing who want to have nothing to do with 3D who nevertheless want reap some of the benefits of what 3D has brought us. The practical reality/"bottom line" is that new encodes of, say, Jurassic Park and Top Gun would not have happened if it weren't for the 3D re-releases of those films occasioned by 3D doing so well (look at the Gravity grosses!). This desire to cherry pick benefits is what I take issue with.

Last edited by Paul.R.S; 10-25-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:55 PM   #202
Geoff D Geoff D is offline
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Sorry for the "lying" bit, that's one of my favourite lines from Ghostbusters II (when Ray shows the guys the ooze underground) and the sarcasm is always lost on the screen. Anyhoo, I'll leave the technological nitty-gritty there if you will, as we've both learned something I think.

As for your last para: regarding my disproportionate sense of outrage, I think it comes not so much from me seeing myself as some sort of champion for the unwashed 2D masses, but that it took the 3D process to generate these new transfers in the first place.

I understand that you take umbrage at 2D folks wanting to "reap some of the benefit of what 3D has brought us", but I'm pissed off at the wider issue, which is that it shouldn't have been due to 3D that these classics got newly transferred at all. Other studios do 4K remasters as a matter of course, whereas Paramount (Top Gun) and Universal (Jurassic Park) only prise open their wallets when they think they can make some extra coin out of it.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:36 PM   #203
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Sorry for the "lying" bit . . .
Thank you.


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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
As for your last para: regarding my disproportionate sense of outrage, I think it comes not so much from me seeing myself as some sort of champion for the unwashed 2D masses, but that it took the 3D process to generate these new transfers in the first place.

I understand that you take umbrage at 2D folks wanting to "reap some of the benefit of what 3D has brought us", but I'm pissed off at the wider issue, which is that it shouldn't have been due to 3D that these classics got newly transferred at all. Other studios do 4K remasters as a matter of course, whereas Paramount (Top Gun) and Universal (Jurassic Park) only prise open their wallets when they think they can make some extra coin out of it.
Although I share your indignation, my issue is what I would call a lack of context. I agree: It arguably shouldn't have taken 3D for these new transfers to be struck. But as I say in my post 194, this is business as usual for the studios.

Let's look at how exactly the studios would execute what you're asking for: Strike a new 2D encode for a title to release a la carte (which means a new SKU to differentiate it from the standalone 2D BD already on the market) and also include that 2D BD in the combo pack . . . that they're already putting a 2D BD in. I may not like it but this just doesn't make "business sense." It is the 3D grosses that are subsidizing the p & l behind the new 3D transfer. I can see the studio position that it is not worth the tedium and expense of also making new 2D discs which are only going to be attractive to a tiny subset of the buying public.

And I'd opine that there would then be folks right here at this Website kvetching about how they "have" to buy the Combo pack just to get the new improved 2D encode. Or that the studio should have done it right the first time.

I tend to look at the need to be grateful that these titles got the improved encodes at all. There are a ton of titles that have not received the quality that they deserve (I just watched The Assassination Of Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford and we've all seen Roger Deakins' cinematog look better than on that disc). And there are even more titles that haven't been released on BD at all! Everything from The Abyss to Waiting To Exhale to What's Love Got To Do With It come to mind.

You mention how many studios strike 4k masters. Well Geoff what about Sony? They're striking tons of 4k masters . . . only to refuse to release them . . . in the U.S. And these are "major" titles: Philadelphia got a BD release in Australia but not the U.S. Disney did the same thing with Quiz Show. And there are other Sony titles which they license to Twilight Time instead of releasing directly for a lower price. As Good As It Gets, The Way We Were and Sleepless In Seattle are examples.

I could go on (and on) with examples. But my fundamental point in this regard is that--even if I set aside my annoyance with folks who can't just stop 3D-bashing and let those who want to enjoy it do so--there are far bigger fish to fry than complaining about one's lack of easier access to a better encode that actually exists on BD. And odds are many of the practically situated folks you are making this idealized world argument for will be buying new displays in the next few years anyway wherein the 3D capability doesn't add anything to the cost of the display?

Last edited by Paul.R.S; 10-25-2013 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:18 AM   #204
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And I'd opine that there would then be folks right here at this Website kvetching about how they "have" to buy the Combo pack just to get the new improved 2D encode. Or that the studio should have done it right the first time.
Very, very true. I'm fighting for the rights of people who'd just move on to moaning about something else.

Quote:
You mention how many studios strike 4k masters. Well Geoff what about Sony? They're striking tons of 4k masters . . . only to refuse to release them . . . in the U.S. And these are "major" titles: Philadelphia got a BD release in Australia but not the U.S. Disney did the same thing with Quiz Show. And there are other Sony titles which they license to Twilight Time instead of releasing directly for a lower price. As Good As It Gets, The Way We Were and Sleepless In Seattle are examples.
Certain countries getting certain catalogues has been a fact of home video life, but seeing as how it's never been easier to import stuff (not that it was ridiculously difficult 20 years ago) I don't see that as a major concern. It's a shame that On The Waterfront was beautifully remastered but restricted to a locked Region A Criterion release in the US, but thankfully the 1.66 version was released in Italy and elsewhere (with a much roomier encode too).

The TT model is somewhat more unfortunate, but some of those masters have surfaced elsewhere (like AGAIG in Germany) and I'm sure they'll all filter through eventually. Something like Body Double looks and sounds too damned good to keep it restricted to some 3,000 lucky souls.

You're right about some of the 3D remasterings, I should be grateful because if it wasn't for that specific process we wouldn't have them at all. I guess I'm just one of those 'glass half empty' kinda people when it comes to hacks like Paramount and Universal improving their lot. It's hard not to be cynical with a track record as dreadful as theirs...
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:08 AM   #205
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Certain countries getting certain catalogues has been a fact of home video life, but seeing as how it's never been easier to import stuff (not that it was ridiculously difficult 20 years ago) I don't see that as a major concern. It's a shame that On The Waterfront was beautifully remastered but restricted to a locked Region A Criterion release in the US, but thankfully the 1.66 version was released in Italy and elsewhere (with a much roomier encode too).

The TT model is somewhat more unfortunate, but some of those masters have surfaced elsewhere (like AGAIG in Germany) and I'm sure they'll all filter through eventually. Something like Body Double looks and sounds too damned good to keep it restricted to some 3,000 lucky souls.

You're right about some of the 3D remasterings, I should be grateful because if it wasn't for that specific process we wouldn't have them at all. I guess I'm just one of those 'glass half empty' kinda people when it comes to hacks like Paramount and Universal improving their lot. It's hard not to be cynical with a track record as dreadful as theirs...
At least you acknowledge your "glass half empty" mentality. You've also just shown that you have a penchant for having a more sanguine attitude about studio ways and means when it suits you but are more unreasonably critical on the other matters we've discussed.

Case in point, you're conveniently missing the broader point I made about the complete absence of many titles on BD for the sake of pointing to the more specific exception of "[c]ertain countries getting certain catalogues [being] a fact of home video life." That wasn't my point at all. Rather, it was about the many other less-than-ideal transfers out there and the fact that just because 4k masters are being generated doesn't mean they're being released on BD. IMO that's vexing even if Sony is holding back on all those 4k masters for possible 4k BD release in, say, 18 months or so. Also, although I incidentally mentioned releases in other countries the more salient point I apparently was not emphatic enough on is regarding the absence of some titles from BD entirely. What's Love Got To Do With It may be on Region-free BD in the U.K. but, say, Love Jones, Beloved, Jungle Fever, Bad Boys II, Midnight In the Garden Of Good and Evil, Ordinary People and Down In the Delta haven't been released on BD in any country.

You also problematically mention the ease of importing. Well, if I want the supplements--including a typically good Ed Zwick commentary--on The Siege I must get the U.K. BD of that pic. But wait--it's Region-locked. I'm sure you're thinking "just get a Region-free BD player" or a Region mod. But it's interesting how quick you likely are to think that but my argument that (likely anti-3D) folks can upgrade to a 3D display if they really want to watch in 2D these few better encodes only available on 3D BD so badly did not appear to move you. And yeah yeah yeah: displays are more expensive than Region-free players or mods (but I just saw some I think 3D displays at Costco that are cheaper than my $500 Oppo) but it is the principle that is my point.

You're also much less contrary/more sanguine about Twilight Time, saying that that boutique's limited editions will "all filter through eventually." Which sounds like an analog of what I am saying about eventual 3D display purchases by many folks at the end of my last post.

I don't have much more to say about your IMO problematic position on all this other than I'd be far more impressed if even three other members came into the thread and kvetched about how they've lost sleep over not being able to watch Top Gun's improved encode exclusive to the 3D BD in 2D on their current display. It hasn't happened.

Last edited by Paul.R.S; 10-28-2013 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:33 PM   #206
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Okay, so now you're using my reply to the tangent you went off on to undermine my annoyance with this locked 3D business, and I fell for it hook, line and sinker.

You want me to say I'll throw in the towel? Fine. I'm done discussing this with you. My viewpoints have been thoroughly exsanguinated (see what I did there?) by your lawyerly dissection of my mercurial nature.

Well played, sir. Well played.

Last edited by Geoff D; 10-28-2013 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:47 PM   #207
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Just discovered randomly today that at least Shreks 1 and 2 3D (from the Samsung 3D starter kit) also play in 2D (on the Panny DMP-BDT350). In fact, no combination of "3D Playback Method" ("3D," "2D" or "Select Upon Playback") or "3D Playback Precautions" (on or off) in the player's settings produces any error message or refusal to play at all--the discs always playback in 2D. And like Top Gun these are Paramount discs (Par distribbed DreamWorks discs at the time), including the familiar font and color Par "This playback device is protected under copyright . . ." screen (and the Technicolor logo on the back cover; so even the same studio's authoring house client is apparently making different decisions at different times for different 3D titles--hardly a "lock").

Last edited by Paul.R.S; 11-16-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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