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Old 02-17-2017, 12:20 PM   #4441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi View Post
More to the point, who did the Emperor get to construct a replica on the second Death Star?
"A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers. In order to get it built quickly and quietly they'd hire anybody who could do the job. Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All they know is killing and white uniforms."
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:30 PM   #4442
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Was it built on the ground, and then launched into space, or did they erect scaffolding in space, and build it up there? What about gravity and tings?
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:34 PM   #4443
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One of my favorite things about Star Wars is not knowing. It sparks the imagination because you have to fill in the blanks yourself. There are plenty of questions to be asked about all of the Star Wars movies because that is what makes it a Star Wars movie. A large amount of it takes place it your own head and therefore you make it your own.

If everything were spelled out, there wouldn't be so much debate, and that is also part of the fun. The questions and the debate are at an all time high right now, because we are between movies of a new trilogy, so naturally more things are up in the air, and more people are on the internet and social media than ever before.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:36 PM   #4444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodneyfaile View Post
One of my favorite things about Star Wars is not knowing. It sparks the imagination because you have to fill in the blanks yourself. There are plenty of questions to be asked about all of the Star Wars movies because that is what makes it a Star Wars movie. A large amount of it takes place it your own head and therefore you make it your own.

If everything were spelled out, there wouldn't be so much debate, and that is also part of the fun. The questions and the debate are at an all time high right now, because we are between movies of a new trilogy, so naturally more things are up in the air, and more people are on the internet and social media than ever before.
Spoil sport.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:43 PM   #4445
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Where did the Jedi Temple come from in The Phantom Mence? What is the Prophecy and why don't we hear it? Why do the Naboo elect Queens? Are the Naboo sexist? Why are Dugs good at flying? Who built the Senate Chamber? What is their Constitution? Why do they speak English in the Senate? Where are the bathrooms? Who built the bathrooms? Who allocated funds for building bathrooms? How do the aliens from M. Night's Signs wash their hands after using the bathroom?

FAIL!!!

(okay, just kidding, a brief scene about the New Republic would have been nice, so when it gets vaporized, we realize the stakes in play...although we didn't know squat about Alderran in Star Wars, either).
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:53 PM   #4446
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Finn was in sanitation, wasn't he? How did he end up on the ground with a weapon on Jakku? Or is it like a rotating duty / training schedule where they're assessed on performance?
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:57 PM   #4447
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Finn was in sanitation, wasn't he? How did he end up on the ground with a weapon on Jakku? Or is it like a rotating duty / training schedule where they're assessed on performance?
Someone 'phoned in sick apparently. The raid on Jakku took place on a Monday so I suppose it makes sense.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:11 PM   #4448
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Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi View Post
Someone 'phoned in sick apparently. The raid on Jakku took place on a Monday so I suppose it makes sense.
Haha, no wonder he couldn't go through with the massacre of innocents. It's literally a case of, "I didn't sign up for this."
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:00 PM   #4449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodneyfaile View Post
One of my favorite things about Star Wars is not knowing. It sparks the imagination because you have to fill in the blanks yourself. There are plenty of questions to be asked about all of the Star Wars movies because that is what makes it a Star Wars movie. A large amount of it takes place it your own head and therefore you make it your own.

If everything were spelled out, there wouldn't be so much debate, and that is also part of the fun. The questions and the debate are at an all time high right now, because we are between movies of a new trilogy, so naturally more things are up in the air, and more people are on the internet and social media than ever before.
Again: we don't want EVERYTHING spelled out. Never have done. All I'm asking for is enough.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:02 PM   #4450
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It's not even a matter of wanting things spelled out. It's just a matter of wanting some context and some simple world-building. As it is, the film feels kinda lazy. It's like somebody pressed the reset button and the galaxy's in the exact same state it was in the original.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:05 PM   #4451
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Finn was in sanitation, wasn't he? How did he end up on the ground with a weapon on Jakku? Or is it like a rotating duty / training schedule where they're assessed on performance?
He was helping clean out the Resistance
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:35 PM   #4452
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Originally Posted by imsounoriginal View Post
He was helping clean out the Resistance
A bit like how Director Krennic was choking on his aspirations?
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:38 PM   #4453
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Originally Posted by dallywhitty View Post
It's not even a matter of wanting things spelled out. It's just a matter of wanting some context and some simple world-building. As it is, the film feels kinda lazy. It's like somebody pressed the reset button and the galaxy's in the exact same state it was in the original.
Bingo, that's why I call it a "soft reboot", with the emphasis on soft lest I get the same sarky replies from a certain member: basically it's like the Empire never went away and there's no attempt whatsoever to try and establish what the current political state of play is. Sure, people keep saying that these guys aren't the full-strength Empire of old but what do we actually get in the movie that makes that clear? They've got ships, troops, tech, all shiny and chrome and hell, we see them use a weapon that's even MORE frickin' powerful than the Death Star(s) so that's not bad going for a bunch of half-assed mountain boys. There's next to no context there and it drives me up the ****ing wall.

Even just a few lines from Han during his "it's true, all of it" moment would've done wonders for me, something about how the Republic initially flourished after the demise of the Emperor but slowly the dark forces regrouped, being galvanised by this mysterious new leader Snoke and further emboldened by the disappearance of Luke. It's so ****ing simple, GRRRRRRR!!!!!
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:55 PM   #4454
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Bingo, that's why I call it a "soft reboot", with the emphasis on soft lest I get the same sarky replies from a certain member: basically it's like the Empire never went away and there's no attempt whatsoever to try and establish what the current political state of play is. Sure, people keep saying that these guys aren't the full-strength Empire of old but what do we actually get in the movie that makes that clear? They've got ships, troops, tech, all shiny and chrome and hell, we see them use a weapon that's even MORE frickin' powerful than the Death Star(s) so that's not bad going for a bunch of half-assed mountain boys. There's next to no context there and it drives me up the ****ing wall.

Even just a few lines from Han during his "it's true, all of it" moment would've done wonders for me, something about how the Republic initially flourished after the demise of the Emperor but slowly the dark forces regrouped, being galvanised by this mysterious new leader Snoke and further emboldened by the disappearance of Luke. It's so ****ing simple, GRRRRRRR!!!!!
Yes, yes, yes, it's so unbelievably frustrating. I really can't wrap my head around how people CAN'T have a problem with it (and I'm not trying to come across as a "Hater" attacking other people's opinions), it's just that it's such a MASSIVE, fundamental problem for me.

With a few tweaks, I could probably be close to seriously liking TFA, but the sum of all the other issues becomes too much, so it just ends up being a bit of throwaway space opera spectacle for me, rather than a thrilling and engaging continuation of a much loved story.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:25 PM   #4455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Even just a few lines from Han during his "it's true, all of it" moment would've done wonders for me, something about how the Republic initially flourished after the demise of the Emperor but slowly the dark forces regrouped, being galvanised by this mysterious new leader Snoke and further emboldened by the disappearance of Luke. It's so ****ing simple, GRRRRRRR!!!!!

From the opening crawl:

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.


Quote from General Hux:

Today is the end of the Republic. The end of a regime that acquiesces to disorder. At this very moment in a system far from here, the New Republic lies to the galaxy while secretly supporting the treachery of the rogues of the Resistance. This fierce machine which you have built, upon which we stand will bring an end to the Senate, to their cherished fleet. All remaining systems will bow to the First Order and will remember this as the last day of the Republic!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz... View Post
Yes, yes, yes, it's so unbelievably frustrating. I really can't wrap my head around how people CAN'T have a problem with it (and I'm not trying to come across as a "Hater" attacking other people's opinions), it's just that it's such a MASSIVE, fundamental problem for me.
I wouldn't call any of you guys "haters." I think we are all having an intelligent conversation and I hope it lasts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz... View Post
With a few tweaks, I could probably be close to seriously liking TFA, but the sum of all the other issues becomes too much, so it just ends up being a bit of throwaway space opera spectacle for me, rather than a thrilling and engaging continuation of a much loved story.
I think the original was just a space opera spectacle as well. I still think there are just as much context about the state of the galaxy in TFA as there was in the original Star Wars.

Why does Darth Vader wear that suit? Who is this Emperor guy they are talking about? How did the Emperor dissolve the Senate? What exactly is a Regional Governor? If Leia is a princess, is her father a King? Is that the same as a Regional Governor or was he in the Senate or neither of those? How exactly does a lightsaber even work?! How can Han understand Chewbacca? Shouldn't Chewbacca have pants on? Is Kenobi really dead because I heard his voice talking to Luke. I wonder where Vader flew off to after the Death Star blew up.

As far as things being in almost the same state as before, well I guess it is almost. How often in just a short time has our own planet been in similar situations with similar factions at odds against each other. If this one planet can't learn from its own past, why should we think and entire galaxy of different planets and people would be able to?

"For it is the doom of men that they forget." - Merlin, Excalibur
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:35 PM   #4456
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In terms of the use of the word 'resistance' has there ever been any precedence in history when the ruling organisation / government has fostered a smaller sub-department or offshoot organisation, and called it a resistance? Doesn't the word evoke an entirely different connotation to how it was used in TFA? That's basic English etymology, surely. I know what Abrams was attempting to do (he didn't want to give the impression that our once plucky band of rebels are now the ruling class; in effect they've taken on the administrative role of the Empire), but anyone can see calling Leia's outfit a resistance was incredibly misleading and disingenuous.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:21 PM   #4457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodneyfaile View Post
From the opening crawl:

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.


Quote from General Hux:

Today is the end of the Republic. The end of a regime that acquiesces to disorder. At this very moment in a system far from here, the New Republic lies to the galaxy while secretly supporting the treachery of the rogues of the Resistance. This fierce machine which you have built, upon which we stand will bring an end to the Senate, to their cherished fleet. All remaining systems will bow to the First Order and will remember this as the last day of the Republic!



I wouldn't call any of you guys "haters." I think we are all having an intelligent conversation and I hope it lasts.



I think the original was just a space opera spectacle as well. I still think there are just as much context about the state of the galaxy in TFA as there was in the original Star Wars.

Why does Darth Vader wear that suit? Who is this Emperor guy they are talking about? How did the Emperor dissolve the Senate? What exactly is a Regional Governor? If Leia is a princess, is her father a King? Is that the same as a Regional Governor or was he in the Senate or neither of those? How exactly does a lightsaber even work?! How can Han understand Chewbacca? Shouldn't Chewbacca have pants on? Is Kenobi really dead because I heard his voice talking to Luke. I wonder where Vader flew off to after the Death Star blew up.
Again though, as I said in previous posts, Star Wars was part 1 of the story (well, originally it was, or at least it was the episode where the audience was first introduced to the story) so it worked because of that, and because it was done so well. I didn't ever need every little thing explained, as there was enough there to understand how things were, and how things had become like that, and everything else just clicked into place.

But (again) TFA isn't part 1. If it was, I really wouldn't mind it so much, as it comes across very much like a brand new, introductory story. It's the fact that it's NOT a brand new story though, but part 7, that causes all these problems for me. And when you add in all the new unresolved story threads, to be explained in the following episodes (I hope), it doesn't leave much meat on the bone for me to enjoy. I guess you could say I don't like it much as a continuation of the story, and I don't find it particularly satisfying as "part 1" of the sequel trilogy. So when I say it's a bit of throwaway space opera spectacle, that's what I mean.

Yes Star Wars, the original, was always a space opera too, but it was engaging and created such a believable world for me. TFA just spoils this because I can't accept the state of the galaxy in the film, as I don't understand it, so the world building just kind of breaks apart for me.

Fundamentally, I don't even really understand (or can't accept) why the New Republic isn't just fighting The First Order themselves, instead of a secret resistance? Should it not be General Leia and her New Republic Forces against The First Order, in a more balanced way (instead of The First Order seeming so incredibly powerful, against a flimsy little secret fleet)? That, I would have loved!

To me though, it feels like they just wanted the New Republic gone to avoid Prequel comparisons, so they could then reset things back to Rebels vs The Empire, except they've been renamed to the Resistance vs The First Order, to give the audience a nice big bowl of nostalgia. It screams of fan pandering to me, when this trilogy could have been its own beast entirely, just like the Prequel trilogy was. A completely different galaxy setup, not aping what had gone before, but something, shock, new.

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Old 02-17-2017, 10:51 PM   #4458
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I suppose that is the difference then. I'm not trying to ridicule your preferences. I consider TFA to be business as usual in the Star Wars style of storytelling and you do not. I think the state of the galaxy is pretty obvious and not at all surprising that things would go bad again after a while. You want to know exactly how it went bad again. To me that part of the story would be kind of boring. I'd rather pick up exactly where we did, right in the middle of a new conflict. To me it isn't about the details of the actual overall galactic conflict as much as it is the individual stories of those affected by it. I guess you just want a different story, but to me what you want is not very much like the Original Trilogy, but more inline with the parts of the prequels I disliked.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:57 PM   #4459
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Yep, the Resistance thing puzzled me right from the start. Are they a militia, are they a paramilitary force, are they working on behalf of or in spite of the Republic's wishes? It does my nut in. And I know it shouldn't, but because I find the new characters to be as exciting and engaging as garden furniture (Ben aside, he's great) then my mind starts concentrating reallllllly hard on all the other crap that the rest of world happily takes at face value. Damn this brain of mine.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:58 PM   #4460
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Quote:
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I suppose that is the difference then. I consider TFA to be business as usual in the Star Wars style of storytelling and you do not. I think the state of the galaxy is pretty obvious and not at all surprising that things would go bad again after a while. You want to know exactly how it went bad again. To me that part of the story would be kind of boring. I'd rather pick up exactly where we did, right in the middle of a new conflict. To me it isn't about the details of the actual overall galactic conflict as much as it is the individual stories of those affected by it.
But if they showed me a situation I could accept, I wouldn't need to know exactly how it went bad again. Just to repost a section from my previous post, could you help me out with understanding this, as this is kind of what I was expecting:


"Fundamentally, I don't even really understand (or can't accept) why the New Republic isn't just fighting The First Order themselves, instead of a secret resistance? Should it not be General Leia and her New Republic Forces against The First Order, in a more balanced way (instead of The First Order seeming so incredibly powerful, against a flimsy little secret fleet)?"


That really would have done the job a lot better for me, and the bad guys rising from the ashes of the Empire would have been sufficient explanation for now, as they were just trying to keep the Empire going in some form. But this incredibly powerful entity is just "huh?" to me. Is this explained in books?
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