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Old 02-02-2013, 08:20 PM   #1
Steelmaker Steelmaker is offline
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Guys I'm really struggling with making a decision on getting a new TV. I see both advantages and disadvantages to LED and pasmas. I've read up on just about every model there is but I just can't decide!!

I understand all the advantages that plasmas have like black levels, video processing, off angle viewing, etc. But to me, after spending countless hours in the stores comparing the two, LED has a more dynamic picture thats more...visually arresting I guess you could say. Its a brighter, sharper, higher detailed image to my eyes, Plus I game...a LOT and I would certainly be concerned about IR/Burn in with a plasma. I'm still not ruling out plasma but I honestly dont see what the fuss is. And that is even after watching a 55" VT50 set on THX Cinema in a dark room (did that today) and according to the experts this is the cream of the crop of plasma right now!

They had a Samsung 65" UN65E8000 on display that I really liked. I thought it looked gorgeous but maybe I'm blind because the so called "experts" say its not that good. Has anyone here had any experience with this set and if so, what are your impressions?
"Live in your hopes, not in your fears."
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:00 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelmaker View Post
Guys I'm really struggling with making a decision on getting a new TV. I see both advantages and disadvantages to LED and pasmas. I've read up on just about every model there is but I just can't decide!!

I understand all the advantages that plasmas have like black levels, video processing, off angle viewing, etc. But to me, after spending countless hours in the stores comparing the two, LED has a more dynamic picture thats more...visually arresting I guess you could say. Its a brighter, sharper, higher detailed image to my eyes, Plus I game...a LOT and I would certainly be concerned about IR/Burn in with a plasma. I'm still not ruling out plasma but I honestly dont see what the fuss is. And that is even after watching a 55" VT50 set on THX Cinema in a dark room (did that today) and according to the experts this is the cream of the crop of plasma right now!

They had a Samsung 65" UN65E8000 on display that I really liked. I thought it looked gorgeous but maybe I'm blind because the so called "experts" say its not that good. Has anyone here had any experience with this set and if so, what are your impressions?
You're going to hear a lot - including the astonishing fact that Panasonic is closing down their plasma manufacturing plant. Take heed.

The new wave is OLED. It will still be expensive for a while; but test your patience. Even if you don't get one, LED technology is going to go down in price.

Sony has a big edge in dependability over Samsung, as beautiful as Samsung can be. Check your need for reliability.

The big thing is, take your time. Don't listen to salespeople; look at the set, the price, and the warranty. You'll know when it's time, and waiting a couple of months may be a good idea. Prices will be set for another drop in spring and summer.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:40 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
You're going to hear a lot - including the astonishing fact that Panasonic is closing down their plasma manufacturing plant. Take heed.

The new wave is OLED. It will still be expensive for a while; but test your patience. Even if you don't get one, LED technology is going to go down in price.

Sony has a big edge in dependability over Samsung, as beautiful as Samsung can be. Check your need for reliability.

The big thing is, take your time. Don't listen to salespeople; look at the set, the price, and the warranty. You'll know when it's time, and waiting a couple of months may be a good idea. Prices will be set for another drop in spring and summer.
1. Panny only close ONE plasma plant, they have several other plants that are still going to make plasma....

2. OLED IS the future, but I wouldn't expect to see affordable sets for 5+ years (so the near future it's pretty much moot)

3. and Sony only has a 1% lower failure rate than Samsung...
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelmaker View Post
Guys I'm really struggling with making a decision on getting a new TV. I see both advantages and disadvantages to LED and pasmas. I've read up on just about every model there is but I just can't decide!!

I understand all the advantages that plasmas have like black levels, video processing, off angle viewing, etc. But to me, after spending countless hours in the stores comparing the two, LED has a more dynamic picture thats more...visually arresting I guess you could say. Its a brighter, sharper, higher detailed image to my eyes, Plus I game...a LOT and I would certainly be concerned about IR/Burn in with a plasma. I'm still not ruling out plasma but I honestly dont see what the fuss is. And that is even after watching a 55" VT50 set on THX Cinema in a dark room (did that today) and according to the experts this is the cream of the crop of plasma right now!

They had a Samsung 65" UN65E8000 on display that I really liked. I thought it looked gorgeous but maybe I'm blind because the so called "experts" say its not that good. Has anyone here had any experience with this set and if so, what are your impressions?
do NOT compare between sets at a store. Plasma is at a disadvantage on display models. LCD/LED is garishly bright and pumped on vivid at a store. A plasma thrives in a light controlled room where it doesn't need 5 billion lumens of light to make itself look impressive. if you literally do TONs of gaming that an LCD might do you better. Just expect to pay almost 2wice as much as a plasma for an LCD of the same quality of picture or accept that you'll take a hit on the picture for your price point. I have an LED myself as a dedicated gaming display since my wife can do 12 hour binges on rpgs. I game all the time on my Panny plasma with no ir problems
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:21 AM   #5
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You cannot evaluate TVs in a typical electronics store. They're all in store blast mode and have the brightness and contrast turned way up. Psychologically, when you see a set in that mode and a properly calibrated set at the same time, you'll choose the set with the inferior picture just because it's brighter.

Do yourself a favor a find a showroom where they calibrate the TVs properly, then compare. Generally, a plasma set will have less dynamic range, but it will have more accurate color and look more like "film". I was sure I was going to buy plasma, but in the end I went LCD when I saw what a calibrated LCD could look like.

But to this day, the best TV picture I've ever seen on a consumer set was the old Pioneer Kuro, which are no longer being made. (And those were plasmas).

If you watch a lot of movies, consider plasma. If you watch more TV and especially sports, you'll probably want LCD.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:37 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
1. Panny only close ONE plasma plant, they have several other plants that are still going to make plasma....
I didn't read tea leaves, here. Entire plants aren't closed when products manufactured there are thriving. School is out for plasma and rear projection, with the former having a limited lifespan, and the latter already in dodo status. I own a Pioneer Kuro, and a Sony 70" XBR; I'm not biased. But the handwriting is on the wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
2. OLED IS the future, but I wouldn't expect to see affordable sets for 5+ years (so the near future it's pretty much moot)
Five years is going to turn into one year, very quickly. Plants close when valued investment can go into new technologies. Expect to see many 50" to 65" sets by this Christmas, and reasonable prices next spring. These are gems, found rarely in some cave deep under the sea; they're televisions sets, and whoever makes them in volume, before the competition, will do these things:
  • Steal profitable sales from everyone else with commodity items;
  • Build brand recognition ahead of other manufacturers, even if they make OLED sets later;
  • Begin making the competition lower prices to move product, impeding their own manufacturer changes.
I am betting that Samsung, always riding the wave behind Sony, is itching to do this. Watch closely, there will be a real firefight by the end of the year and next spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
3. and Sony only has a 1% lower failure rate than Samsung...
Things must have improved. When I bought my Sony, they were under 1%, and Samsung, almost 3%. I'm not saying Samsung makes a bad television - they don't - but while I might gamble on which restaurant to go to, I don't gamble with big money.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
I didn't read tea leaves, here. Entire plants aren't closed when products manufactured there are thriving. School is out for plasma and rear projection, with the former having a limited lifespan, and the latter already in dodo status. I own a Pioneer Kuro, and a Sony 70" XBR; I'm not biased. But the handwriting is on the wall.



Five years is going to turn into one year, very quickly. Plants close when valued investment can go into new technologies. Expect to see many 50" to 65" sets by this Christmas, and reasonable prices next spring. These are gems, found rarely in some cave deep under the sea; they're televisions sets, and whoever makes them in volume, before the competition, will do these things:
  • Steal profitable sales from everyone else with commodity items;
  • Build brand recognition ahead of other manufacturers, even if they make OLED sets later;
  • Begin making the competition lower prices to move product, impeding their own manufacturer changes.
I am betting that Samsung, always riding the wave behind Sony, is itching to do this. Watch closely, there will be a real firefight by the end of the year and next spring.



Things must have improved. When I bought my Sony, they were under 1%, and Samsung, almost 3%. I'm not saying Samsung makes a bad television - they don't - but while I might gamble on which restaurant to go to, I don't gamble with big money.
oh , I agree, but I still think Plasma has 2-3 years left on the shelves... and it's NOT a bad investment

as for OLED's... we'll see. I just personally don't expect to see 50 inchers in the $1500 and under price range for YEARS

as for failure rates. right now sony is at 5% failure rate and Samsung is 6%.... I agree, back in the day sony was THE name for quality electronics, now they're only about AS good as the Korean mfg's and sometimes worse quality (picture wise)
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:45 AM   #8
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oh , I agree, but I still think Plasma has 2-3 years left on the shelves... and it's NOT a bad investment

as for OLED's... we'll see. I just personally don't expect to see 50 inchers in the $1500 and under price range for YEARS

as for failure rates. right now sony is at 5% failure rate and Samsung is 6%.... I agree, back in the day sony was THE name for quality electronics, now they're only about AS good as the Korean mfg's and sometimes worse quality (picture wise)
Once a manufacturer starts closing plants, they're looking to save money. When that happens, quality control is shot straight to Hell, with everyone doing more for less.

No, it's not a bad investment. I will not say it's a good investment. Panasonic's "rising blacks" have never sat well with me, and I don't know if they're really over it yet. I'd rather wait and get a prime LED or OLED, if it's all the same.

I don't know where you're getting your statistics, but a manufacturer of high end electronics with a 5-6% failure rate is not going to be in business for another week. No one can handle that kind of return/repair rate - not the manufacturer, the shipper, the dealer, nobody.

I don't care if they're throwing in free 3D glasses, a bottle of spray cleaner, and a lap dance. It just doesn't happen.

Check those numbers, I think you read it wrong...
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:49 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
Once a manufacturer starts closing plants, they're looking to save money. When that happens, quality control is shot straight to Hell, with everyone doing more for less.

No, it's not a bad investment. I will not say it's a good investment. Panasonic's "rising blacks" have never sat well with me, and I don't know if they're really over it yet. I'd rather wait and get a prime LED or OLED, if it's all the same.

I don't know where you're getting your statistics, but a manufacturer of high end electronics with a 5-6% failure rate is not going to be in business for another week. No one can handle that kind of return/repair rate - not the manufacturer, the shipper, the dealer, nobody.

I don't care if they're throwing in free 3D glasses, a bottle of spray cleaner, and a lap dance. It just doesn't happen.

Check those numbers, I think you read it wrong...
you're right , I checked the failure rates again, I was off by a few points

as follows

Panasonic 2%
Sanyo 2%
Sylvania 2%
Sony 3%
JVC 3%
Visio 3%
Sharp 3%
Emerson 3%
LG 3%
Insignia 4%
Toshiba 4%
Magnavox 4%
Philips 4%
Viewsonic 4%
Samsung 4%
Westinghous 8%
Polaroid 10 %
Mitsubishi 12%

these were the combined stats between 2007-2011

Last edited by wormraper; 02-03-2013 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:34 AM   #10
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I've bought a plasma twice--a Vizio 6 or so years ago, and a Panasonic 55" UT50 a few weeks ago. I returned both for the same reasons--buzzing and IR issues.

Both buzzed enough in bright scenes I could hear it over dialogue and it drove me nuts. Both times I had a tech come out to try to quiet them down, but it didn't help. I just think I'm very sensitive to hearing buzzing and very annoyed by it.

I also had issues with IR as I watch a lot of ESPN and do a lot of gaming. So Plasmas just aren't for me.

I do like the PQ of plasmas a bit better with the better blacks and better handling of motion. But I'm not a videophile and those aren't enough for me to live with the buzzing I hear or to alter my usage habits to limit IR. I'll take a slightly lesser picture for silence and being able to watch ESPN all day or game for hours on end with no IR worries.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:17 AM   #11
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OLED's doesn't appeal to me at all! I wouldn't pay $500.00 for one, regardless how great they look because they are extremely too thin, light and delicate for my taste. A regular blu-ray case is thicker than an OLED! I like HDTVs with thick, strong constructed front panels and back covers. A 10 year old boy can lift one by himself. They only weigh 16 Lbs! For $10,000.00, the companies should have manufactured the OLED's more durable then what they are, especially for what they cost.

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Old 02-03-2013, 05:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmaul1114 View Post
I've bought a plasma twice--a Vizio 6 or so years ago, and a Panasonic 55" UT50 a few weeks ago. I returned both for the same reasons--buzzing and IR issues.

Both buzzed enough in bright scenes I could hear it over dialogue and it drove me nuts. Both times I had a tech come out to try to quiet them down, but it didn't help. I just think I'm very sensitive to hearing buzzing and very annoyed by it.

I also had issues with IR as I watch a lot of ESPN and do a lot of gaming. So Plasmas just aren't for me.

I do like the PQ of plasmas a bit better with the better blacks and better handling of motion. But I'm not a videophile and those aren't enough for me to live with the buzzing I hear or to alter my usage habits to limit IR. I'll take a slightly lesser picture for silence and being able to watch ESPN all day or game for hours on end with no IR worries.
different people have different tolerances for buzzing. I have a high tolerance since I can barely hear buzzing unless I'm within 3-4 feet of the screen and I've demoed dozens of sets over the years. Other people swear they can hear them without even being turned on (idle power supply)
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
different people have different tolerances for buzzing. I have a high tolerance since I can barely hear buzzing unless I'm within 3-4 feet of the screen and I've demoed dozens of sets over the years. Other people swear they can hear them without even being turned on (idle power supply)
Yep. And it can also be luck. People on AVS have posted about taking buzzers back and comparing side by side to a new one in the store and getting a quieter one. Or the tech replacing screws or a board and being able to fix it.

But I do think I'm pretty sensitive to buzzing so I think it's more that they probably all just buzz more than I can tolerate.

I will note on the UT50 I just sent back my girlfriend commented on how loud the white and gray slides where when running them during the break in. Those you could hear in the next room. But she didn't notice it during bright scenes in movies/shows like I did--though she could hear it during commercials with white screens and little audio.

But yeah, buzzing is just something that some hear and get annoyed by easily and others don't. It's a deal breaker for me. And even if it wasn't I'd never go plasma again as I want the peace of mind to do stuff like leave it on ESPN all day today up until the game, or play a new game several hours a night when I get it etc. without worry about IR.

Plasma's give a great picture, one I'll admit to liking better than LED/LDC, but not being a videophile I just can't live with the buzzing I hear or having to alter my watching habits to avoid IR since my watching involves lots of static images with the ESPN ticker and game HUDs. I just see plasmas as really only being worth it for videophiles and/or people who naturally mix content a lot and seldom have static images up for long periods.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:36 PM   #14
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OLED's doesn't appeal to me at all! I wouldn't pay $500.00 for one, regardless how great they look because they are extremely too thin, light and delicate for my taste. A regular blu-ray case is thicker than an OLED! I like HDTVs with thick, strong constructed front panels and back covers. A 10 year old boy can lift one by himself. They only weigh 16 Lbs! For $10,000.00, the companies should have manufactured those OLED's a lot more durable then what they are, especially for what the they cost.
I'd never pay more than a grand or so for a TV. But how is being thin and light a drawback? I mean I guess if you have crib midgets running around and have to worry about things getting knocked over and broken--but both me and the better half hate kids (I'm getting a vasectomy in a couple weeks) so that's never a worry.

And as someone who's moved every few years lately (and have at least a couple more long moves in store) and likes to rearrange rooms, being light and easy to move is a plus, not a drawback.

My main thing with OLED or other new techs is hoping that they eventually get something that can match the black levels and motion handling of plasma, without the proclivity for buzzing and IR. I don't care that much about being thinner and lighter--but I do view that as a plus. I'd just love to get a plasma or better picture without the annoyances that make me unable to go with plasma.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmaul1114 View Post
I'd never pay more than a grand or so for a TV. But how is being thin and light a drawback? I mean I guess if you have crib midgets running around and have to worry about things getting knocked over and broken--but both me and the better half hate kids (I'm getting a vasectomy in a couple weeks) so that's never a worry.

And as someone who's moved every few years lately (and have at least a couple more long moves in store) and likes to rearrange rooms, being light and easy to move is a plus, not a drawback.
I've never said, OLEDs were a drawback! I just don't like ultra slim HDTVs.

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Old 02-04-2013, 12:24 AM   #16
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Question, can the top of the line plasmas get as dynamic, sharp, and have as much "pop" as the better LED TV's?

I guess thats my issue with plasma, based on my viewings at the store. Plus for those who are saying "oh you cant go by the store display." Well like I said before, the VT50 that I saw at Best Buy was in one of their theater rooms and I verified that it was set to THX Cinema mode. The picture looked nice but to my eyes it was somewhat soft and understated compared to the Samsung. The Samsung's image was sharper, it seemed to show more fine detail, and just had a "wow" factor that the plasma didn't. Even my wife made the comment "wow that image looks real." Yes the plasma had darker blacks but imo that is not the be all end all to a TV's image qualiy.
"Live in your hopes, not in your fears."

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Old 02-04-2013, 07:35 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Steelmaker View Post
Question, can the top of the line plasmas get as dynamic, sharp, and have as much "pop" as the better LED TV's?

I guess thats my issue with plasma, based on my viewings at the store. Plus for those who are saying "oh you cant go by the store display." Well like I said before, the VT50 that I saw at Best Buy was in one of their theater rooms and I verified that it was set to THX Cinema mode. The picture looked nice but to my eyes it was somewhat soft and understated compared to the Samsung. The Samsung's image was sharper, it seemed to show more fine detail, and just had a "wow" factor that the plasma didn't. Even my wife made the comment "wow that image looks real." Yes the plasma had darker blacks but imo that is not the be all end all to a TV's image qualiy.
I hope the video you watched on the plasma was the same one they were playing on the LCD... these promo videos they play on demo TVs are probably adjusted so that it makes the colours pop more than it should and seems sharper than the movies.. i think it'll hurt my eyes to watch videos that have saturation and sharpness turned up for long time. Kinda deceiving if you ask me.. BOSE audio pull this crap with their demo set up at Bestbuy. When they say their speakers produce more 'detail' on the demo video, sound they play has treb turned up to make it seem like it's producing more detail.. also demo audios are mixed in a way that will dazzle you.. haha
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:35 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
Once a manufacturer starts closing plants, they're looking to save money. When that happens, quality control is shot straight to Hell, with everyone doing more for less.
That is nothing more than an ASSUMPTION. And you know what happens when you assume ...
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelmaker View Post
Question, can the top of the line plasmas get as dynamic, sharp, and have as much "pop" as the better LED TV's?

I guess thats my issue with plasma, based on my viewings at the store. Plus for those who are saying "oh you cant go by the store display." Well like I said before, the VT50 that I saw at Best Buy was in one of their theater rooms and I verified that it was set to THX Cinema mode. The picture looked nice but to my eyes it was somewhat soft and understated compared to the Samsung. The Samsung's image was sharper, it seemed to show more fine detail, and just had a "wow" factor that the plasma didn't. Even my wife made the comment "wow that image looks real." Yes the plasma had darker blacks but imo that is not the be all end all to a TV's image qualiy.
those "theater" settings are nothing but a garbage guidline for estimated settings. Only way to compare is to dial in BOTH displays in with a calibration disc. Settings on displays can vary WILDLY....

I have a U50 plasma that DESTROYS any samsung or Sony display in the under $1500 range with both dialed in and calibrated
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Rambler View Post
That is nothing more than an ASSUMPTION. And you know what happens when you assume ...
I've seen this happen in my industry (computers) for decades. It's more than an assumption - it's experience.

I've watched it especially with the highly technical devices - hard drives, monitors, and IC's.

Consumer articles - like VHS players - are also subject to this. As well as televisions.

Let us know your experience in watching reductions in manufacturing plants. Automobiles? Aircraft? Appliances? Manufacturing equipment?

Or, as I suspect, are you just making assumptions?
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