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Old 03-12-2014, 04:52 PM   #361
HD Goofnut HD Goofnut is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonJF View Post
I'm wondering how lossy tracks on rentals even save them money, though. The lossless track already exists, there isn't an additional cost to manufacture, and, according to our resident experts, renters don't notice either way. I'd even think it might cost them more to have a rental only version.
They've been doing it for well over a year now so it must be generating money through people buying the retail copies for lossless audio and extras.
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:00 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsoba View Post
Few people on tech fora will admit to being unable to detect the difference, but poor hearing is both prevalent and nothing to be ashamed of. Pretending to being able to hear the difference, though, is like pretending to being able to see the czar's clothes.
Holy hell! I can sure tell the difference on my setup. Maybe if you're listening through your tv speakers there's not much of a difference, but I haven't done that in years, so I can't tell you if there is.
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:06 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by thegoat View Post
Why are people on this site to begin with? If HD audio is useless compared to DD, then why bother with this format? I can't believe the amount of resistance that people here have to the idea that an HD disc should include the standard HD audio.

What's the point of renting out Blu-ray discs if they do not include standard Blu-ray quality? It's like arguing that all rental DVDs can be non-anamorphic and that people with widescreen TVs won't notice anyway if they use the zoom feature or because they probably have poor vision. It makes no sense.
I'm not defending the practice but explaining why it happens and why there isn't a greater general outcry. People who use tech fora are not a representative sample of the general population.
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:34 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by HD Goofnut View Post
They've been doing it for well over a year now so it must be generating money through people buying the retail copies for lossless audio and extras.
Extras are one thing, lossless audio is another.

Just because they've been doing it for a year doesn't mean it's generating additional revenue in sales due to the incentive of re-watching with a lossless track. They are already getting their money from Redbox. How would they even know? Where are they getting the number of units of "Catching Fire" sold this week to people who rented via Redbox who wanted to hear the lossless audio track on the retail release?
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:37 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonJF View Post
Extras are one thing, lossless audio is another.

Just because they've been doing it for a year doesn't mean it's generating additional revenue in sales due to the incentive of re-watching with a lossless track. They are already getting their money from Redbox. How would they even know? Where are they getting the number of units of "Catching Fire" sold this week to people who rented via Redbox who wanted to hear the lossless audio track on the retail release?
I am just making a reasonable assumption. If they've done been doing it for over a year it stands to reason that they are making extra money from the practice.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:19 PM   #366
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We should just blame Sony for not mandating that the bluray format include a loss-less track.

The truth of the matter is that the studios want you to buy the discs and they see rentals as taking money out of their pockets. In order to discourage rentals they came up with the "rental" version of the disc. They sell this rental version to the rental companies for a less than the rental companies can get the real version. Along with this special pricing comes a few conditions, most notably the 28 day delay and stripped features. I can understand why the studios so this and they are perfectly within their rights to do so.

The rental companies then have a choice. They can buy the real version at a higher cost or accept the studios rental version at a discount. They have chosen to take the rental version at discount. Again I understand why and believe they are well within their rights to do so.

This will only stop when there is enough consumer backlash and the the rental companies see it's in their best interest to off the full discs. Complaining and demanding a refund is exactly what is needed.

Unfortunately as is evidenced by this thread not enough people care and/or there are no good alternatives. Personally, I care about it but not enough to buy the discs instead or renting them.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:05 PM   #367
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what "studios" are you talking about when you give this example?

It is only 1 studio; Lionsgate. Have you not been reading this forum?

All others studios are ok; they give HD Audio on the rentals and have been dong that for some time

I have rented Thor 2, Despicable me 2, FF 6, Oblivion, Pacific Rim, Star Trek ID, etc recently and ALL of them had HD Audio

I don't think those good studios are going to start stripping the discs ; they could have already done that if they wanted to but have not
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:30 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroit1 View Post
what "studios" are you talking about when you give this example?

It is only 1 studio; Lionsgate. Have you not been reading this forum?

All others studios are ok; they give HD Audio on the rentals and have been dong that for some time

I have rented Thor 2, Despicable me 2, FF 6, Oblivion, Pacific Rim, Star Trek ID, etc recently and ALL of them had HD Audio

I don't think those good studios are going to start stripping the discs ; they could have already done that if they wanted to but have not
Perhaps other studios are waiting to see how it works with LG, before they start doing the same thing? Kind of like what they say about the NFL: It's a copycat league.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:51 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by JimboTHX1138 View Post
No, personally I agree with the notion that we should be getting the best. I'm not sticking up for Lionsgate for Christs sake. You seem to miss the point. This thread is 18 pages long now I'm just pointing out a few facts for anyone reading. I believe mtbdudexdad would benefit from the higher bit rate with his 11.3 setup (nice setup btw) but that's not everybody. Someone with a beginner satellite setup have no need to see stars in their eyes if HD audio flash up on there system. A good mix can sound good no matter the bit-rate and there is a point of diminishing returns. Are you arguing that? Good speakers, an AVR with EQ (Auydessy, MCACC etc.) would be more beneficial IMO. Worry about this stuff later.
+1 ,actually w/o proper acoustic treatments, where the first reflections are kept -20db within the first 30ms of the primary sound (precedence/hass effect), having DD 5.1 vs lossless might be meaningless in the big picture compared to the overall imaging and clarity goals.....
and maybe all those saying "those who rent could care less or might not know the difference", well for 98% of those renters that just might be true, and I'm the 2% outlier.....

Showing here me going thru gathering fact based objective data, using ETC charts, to calibrate and dial in my HT acoustics.
Calibrated mic, etc.
.

I was even concerned about over absorbing so put hard plywood in front of my acoustic panels to simulate smaller side wall panels.
Turned out I was NOT over absorbing.


However, I never did an A <> B of same sound track DD 5.1 vs lossless.
There would need to be a lot of work to set-up a correct statistically valid test scenario, with appropriate # of subjects (salt bags, ie humans).

It's been stated in this thread this has been discussed/debated, was that with objective statistically correct data?
Being "new" to blu-ray forum if you provide me a link I'd love to read that thread.
and move my discussion/learning to that thread.

I even made a test fixture to gather fact based data on sound transmission thru various fabrics for acoustic treatment panel making.
If you don't have data to speak from, then in my mind your discussion points are not valid, just opinions.


No, I'm not "showing off" my HT like it's been posted in other thread, rather showing that truly for me it's all about fact based data - and correlate that to subjective listening to truly grasp the nuances, pure and simple.
Data w/o correlation to subjective real world gets lost to most people, I know that.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:33 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfp View Post
We should just blame Sony for not mandating that the bluray format include a loss-less track.

The truth of the matter is that the studios want you to buy the discs and they see rentals as taking money out of their pockets. In order to discourage rentals they came up with the "rental" version of the disc. They sell this rental version to the rental companies for a less than the rental companies can get the real version. Along with this special pricing comes a few conditions, most notably the 28 day delay and stripped features. I can understand why the studios so this and they are perfectly within their rights to do so.

[Show spoiler]The rental companies then have a choice. They can buy the real version at a higher cost or accept the studios rental version at a discount. They have chosen to take the rental version at discount. Again I understand why and believe they are well within their rights to do so.

This will only stop when there is enough consumer backlash and the the rental companies see it's in their best interest to off the full discs. Complaining and demanding a refund is exactly what is needed.

Unfortunately as is evidenced by this thread not enough people care and/or there are no good alternatives. Personally, I care about it but not enough to buy the discs instead or renting them.
I don't think studios are stupid enough to think renting is "taking money out of their pockets". There's alot of folks who simply can't afford to buy every movie they want to see, and alot more who are smart enough to not buy every movie they want to see. I have a foot in each of those camps. I live in the boonies and don't have fast enough internet for streaming so I've keep my antiquated Netflix disc rental. Recent rentals include Inside Llewyn Davis, A Single Shot, Nebraska, Ender's Game, & Last Vegas - all movies I was curious enough to want to watch them once, but was pretty sure I didn't want to own. Aside from Nebraska, none are movies I want to own, no matter what games the studios play. They can't be stupid enough to not get that.

And disc rental certainly isn't the only to 'rent' a movie - the PPV 'rental' on cable & satellite is probably just as large a market as disc rental, and both rental methods put money into the pockets of the studios. The more they discourage rentals the more they push folks into considering 'black market' methods - illegal downloads, etc. - that put zero dollars in their pockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by detroit1 View Post
what "studios" are you talking about when you give this example?

It is only 1 studio; Lionsgate. Have you not been reading this forum?

All others studios are ok; they give HD Audio on the rentals and have been dong that for some time

I have rented Thor 2, Despicable me 2, FF 6, Oblivion, Pacific Rim, Star Trek ID, etc recently and ALL of them had HD Audio

I don't think those good studios are going to start stripping the discs ; they could have already done that if they wanted to but have not
Actually, Summit was one of the first studios to play this game, they put the BD rental for 'Red' on a BD25 that didn't give them enough disc space for lossless, so they gimped it with DD. My reaction? OK, fine - I dropped BD from my Netflix account and only rent DVD. The surcharge for BD always annoyed me, and I figured if the studios are only going to give me crappy DD I might as well get that crap on a crappy DVD. Actually I have an Oppo player that upconverts very well, so I don't miss that much, and I've found I get new releases from Netflix much faster on the DVD - they shipped Inside Llewyn Davis on Monday before release day; the BD would no doubt be in "very long wait". I haven't bought a DVD in years, I only buy Blu-ray, but the more they play these games the more I'm content to rent DVD.

Bottom line, the more the studios play these games and gimp rentals, the more they hurt the Blu-ray format. And I suspect that, aside from Sony, the studios don't care - they know those who buy movies on Blu-ray are and will continue to be a minority, and they're happy to get their money from disc rental, cable & satellite PPV, streaming, and whatever else comes along.
When you boil it all down, what does a man really need? Just a smoke and a cup of coffee. - Johnny Guitar

Last edited by The Duke; 03-12-2014 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:06 PM   #371
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Summit and Lionsgate merged. They are the same company

I am familiar with RED. That was also the first movie I came across where the rental had stripped audio
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Old 03-13-2014, 02:54 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
I don't think studios are stupid enough to think renting is "taking money out of their pockets".
you'd be surprised. I work with the studio marketing firms on a daily basis and I can tell you for a fact that it's EXACTLY what they think. but not just "rentals" in general, but cheap rentals... when the $5-$6 per title rental vanished with the boom of Netlfix and Redbox the studios realized that they weren't generating as much revenue from those streams and have been actively been trying to turn people AWAY from rentals so that they can go back to the DVD boom days when everyone bought everything

don't forget, these are the same people who argue that every downloaded torrent is someone who would have bought the movie and they try to use it as evidence of loss on their part.

Last edited by wormraper; 03-13-2014 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:46 AM   #373
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While I stated earlier that I agree most "redbox" folks wont miss the lossless, I in no way meant it was because you can't really tell the difference.

I can usually easily tell the difference between DTSHD and TrueHD vs DD 5.1.

That being said, if you look at the traffic this topic gets here and AVS, on an enthusiasts topic, it tells me the gen pop is probably going to care less. Sad as it is, we are a minority for sure in this situation. IMO.
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