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Old 02-15-2015, 04:58 PM   #2481
JJ JJ is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Benny View Post
Happy Friday JJ!!
love looking at pix of your place man!!! so awesome!!
Thanks, Benny!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DangeRuss View Post
What's going on J ?
You know .............. I see this same complaint from a lot of people when talking about their matching center speaker (not being able to keep up) and I'm kinda mystified ......... To me and in my system the center channel conveys most of the information during movies and as such is prominent speaker. My front towers only support the actions of the center (pans etc.) with the exception of the accompanying musical score. But unless the center's have a much lower sensitivity than the towers I can't see where all of the issues are stemming from. Of course because the center is physically smaller and has less cabinet volume it won't produce sound in quite the same way as the towers but ....... If the crossovers are set properly the sub should be picking up the slack for the smaller speaker.
Now I guess if we're talking about playing movies at earth shattering dB levels I can see where the center (and even surrounds) would run out of gas before the towers ........ I don't know
So could someone enlighten me to this phenomena
BTW: I had no idea that the 2.5's were that light
Well, I had this issue with my HTM62 and B&W 683s, very well documented around this thread when I made the switch to my Sonus Faber. I thought it was just “part of the deal” and I never knew quite what I was missing. And I fully agree, in home theater – for full immersion, the center channel may just be the most important. I’m looking over the stats now and the following info stands out –
The sensitivity of the 2.5s and the Center is the same – 89 dB SPL. So that’s not a biggie. But the size difference is noticeable. It’s hard to quantify via looking at the specs what the issue is. But you can hear it. The crossover for the 2.5s is set at 250 Hz and 2.5kHz, while for the Venere Center it’s 1.8kHz. The drivers are 7” in the towers versus 6” in the center.

But I don’t play films at earth shattering levels. It’s not painful to my ears, and I know a couple buddies who turn it up to painful for x/y reason. I hate that. We all have what we consider, for our room, to be reference volume. But it just FEELS like in some movies the center starts sputtering. And I can notice it. So that’s why I’m curious to try the Verus Grand.

And yeah, the 2.5s are 43 lbs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badas View Post
^
I don't think matching is important but to my mind the Center has to be able to handle loads. Like you pointed out a lot of a movie soundtrack is in the Center. What about things like gunshots? Mine hits and slams so hard you can feel it in your chest. So that is why mine is more powerful than my other speakers. It has a built in amp and the two outer drivers are crossed over subs. Insane speaker.
Yep. I’m not married to timbre matching. Never was. Just for the sake of aesthetics, maybe. But the load handling is important. And I really want to see how much of a difference the larger, heftier Verus Grand makes. Although I will note its crossover information is not available online. That midrange driver is what is most tantalizing to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aces high View Post
Hi JJ,
The new setup looks great!!! Very well done.
Russ,
I've run into this problem a couple of times and am currently having the same problem as JJ, my Monitor Audio Silver Center just doesn't keep up to the Monitor Audio Silver 10's that I'm using as mains. What I'm thinking part of the problem is where the internal crossover is to the woofers vs which frequency one crosses the speakers over at in the processor to the subwoofer. The Silver 10 woofers have a 500hz crossover, so from 500hz and down the Silver 10's have the output of four 8 inch woofers in a much larger ported cabinet. The Silver Center has two 6.5 inch woofers in a small sealed cabinet. This causes the towers to sound much more dynamic and have much great output potential vs the center.
I never had any problems with any of the Paradigm speakers I've owned in the past in this regard. Part of that is that a couple of the Paradigm centers I've owned were very large speakers but did own a couple of the smaller models as well. For instance the Paradigm Signature S6 towers I once owned have a 190hz crossover to the woofers, therefore the added output of the woofers doesn't kick in until a much lower frequency, which is also much closer to what one would use for a crossover to a subwoofer.
Not sure what the crossover for the woofers in JJ's speakers are, wasn't able to find that bit of info on the Sonus Faber website. Anyway this has just been my experience over the years I've been into this hobby.
Thanks, Andrew!

And I also agree with your sentiments re: crossovers – as I noted above when comparing the stats of the 2.5 and the Center. Maybe it's all psychoacoustics, but I know a lot of others who share these sentiments. Sometimes center channels are afterthoughts, like when GoldenEar tried to match that teeny soundbar to their massive Tritons. The Paradigm centers that I know, further up the line, are huge – some the size of towers laid horizontally, if I recall. Sonus Faber used to have all the info on their site, but now it isn’t present. For reference, I found it in the product manuals themselves:

Quote:
Venere 2.5 Tower
Tweeter:
1” (29 mm) High-definition fabric dome

Mid-Woofer:
7” (180 mm) Curv cone driver

Woofer:
7” (180 mm) compression-free basket design with thermo-molded polypropylene textile Curv cone driver

Crossover Point:
250Hz and 2.5kHz

Frequency Response:
40Hz ‐ 25kHz

Sensitivity:
89 dB SPL (2.83 V/1m)

Nominal impendence:
6 ohms

Suggested Amplifier Power Output:
40W ‐ 250W without clipping

Dimensions (HWD):
43.6 x 13.4 x 17.2 in., 1107 x 340 x 437 mm

Weight:
43lbs., 19.45kg each
Quote:
Venere Center
Tweeter:
1” (29 mm) High-definition fabric dome

Mid-Woofer:
2 x 6” (150 mm) Curv cone driver

Crossover Point:
1.8kHz

Frequency Response:
60Hz ‐ 25kHz

Sensitivity:
89 dB SPL (2.83 V/1m)

Nominal impendence:
6 ohms

Suggested Amplifier Power Output:
30W ‐ 150W without clipping

Dimensions (HWD):
8.8 x 19.7 x 11.5 in., 222 x 500 x 290 mm

Weight:
21.0lbs., 9.5kg each
Quote:
Aperion Grand Verus Center
1" Custom Aperion ASR Tweeter
4” Woven Kevlar Woofer Midrange
(2) 6” Woven Kevlar Woofers
Frequency Response: (+/- 3dB) 50-20,000 Hz
(+/- 6dB) 42-22,000 Hz
Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Recommended Power: 40 - 300 Watts
Driver Configuration: 3- Way
Bass Alignment: Sealed
Dimensions: 9" H x 24.75" W x 11" D
Weight: 39 lbs.
In another 2-3 weeks, I'll have the Verus at home. Check out the recommended power, weight between the 2.5s and the Grand Verus. Who knows if it'll make a difference, but it's a heck of a lot more similar than the 2.5s and their matching center. Also to note - higher up the Sonus Faber line, the Olympica center channel, on paper, has similar stats to the Grand Verus. However, the Olympica center is $5,500.
- Orbis non Sufficit
================

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Last edited by JJ; 02-15-2015 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 02-15-2015, 05:39 PM   #2482
DangeRuss DangeRuss is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badas View Post
^

I don't think matching is important but to my mind the Center has to be able to handle loads. Like you pointed out a lot of a movie soundtrack is in the Center. What about things like gunshots? Mine hits and slams so hard you can feel it in your chest. So that is why mine is more powerful than my other speakers. It has a built in amp and the two outer drivers are crossed over subs. Insane speaker.
I beg to differ when it come to timber matching . But then again, I rarely if ever come close to reference levels during playback

Quote:
Originally Posted by aces high View Post
Hi JJ,


The new setup looks great!!! Very well done.

Russ,

I've run into this problem a couple of times and am currently having the same problem as JJ, my Monitor Audio Silver Center just doesn't keep up to the Monitor Audio Silver 10's that I'm using as mains. What I'm thinking part of the problem is where the internal crossover is to the woofers vs which frequency one crosses the speakers over at in the processor to the subwoofer. The Silver 10 woofers have a 500hz crossover, so from 500hz and down the Silver 10's have the output of four 8 inch woofers in a much larger ported cabinet. The Silver Center has two 6.5 inch woofers in a small sealed cabinet. This causes the towers to sound much more dynamic and have much great output potential vs the center.

I never had any problems with any of the Paradigm speakers I've owned in the past in this regard. Part of that is that a couple of the Paradigm centers I've owned were very large speakers but did own a couple of the smaller models as well. For instance the Paradigm Signature S6 towers I once owned have a 190hz crossover to the woofers, therefore the added output of the woofers doesn't kick in until a much lower frequency, which is also much closer to what one would use for a crossover to a subwoofer.

Not sure what the crossover for the woofers in JJ's speakers are, wasn't able to find that bit of info on the Sonus Faber website. Anyway this has just been my experience over the years I've been into this hobby.
You were one of the members I thought about when discussing this issue ........... And I really can't see highly regarded manufacturers such as B&W, Dynaudio, MA and others selling or promoting center channel speakers that don't cut the mustard . I understand what you're talking about when discussing the crossovers but I think the phenomena has more to do with sensitivity and total output than the crossovers especially when you consider the bass management that's going in the processing of the entire array
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:32 PM   #2483
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I beg to differ when it come to timber matching . But then again, I rarely if ever come close to reference levels during playback

You were one of the members I thought about when discussing this issue ........... And I really can't see highly regarded manufacturers such as B&W, Dynaudio, MA and others selling or promoting center channel speakers that don't cut the mustard . I understand what you're talking about when discussing the crossovers but I think the phenomena has more to do with sensitivity and total output than the crossovers especially when you consider the bass management that's going in the processing of the entire array
I'd love to see what your reference volume is, now I'm curious. I do know everyone has their own particular quirks for what they play as. Some say "0" on their receiver is reference volume but that's earth-shattering loudness that hurts to me. But that also depends on how your receiver does the volume control anyway. But I side with Badas. Timbre matching from the LF/RF to the C...eh. What with EQ tweaking, they don't sound as alike anyway. And if I run the same EQ of the towers to the center, the center sounds bleh. So there it is.

I don't think it's a matter of cutting the mustard or not, I just think it's a matter of the center channel design in and of itself, and the inherent drawbacks (from an acoustic design standpoint) of creating a speaker that sits horizontally and is far smaller than its matching tower brethren to create a similar sound. I draw this from my own experience in listening to matching centers/towers from a wide variety of manufacturers.

Call me crazy, but sometimes I feel like the design process for center channels - in all manufacturers - is just "make it X*Y*Z in size, and so it looks kind of the same as the [towers/bookshelves of the same line], use the same drivers from the [towers/bookshelves of the same line], slap em in an MTM arrangement, cut the price by 25-50%, and sell em"
- Orbis non Sufficit
================

Sonus Faber Venere - Epik Empire
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Pioneer Elite VSX-03 - Pioneer Elite DV-48 - Sony S790

Last edited by JJ; 02-16-2015 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:54 PM   #2484
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Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I'd love to see what your reference volume is, now I'm curious. I do know everyone has their own particular quirks for what they play as. Some say "0" on their receiver is reference volume but that's earth-shattering loudness that hurts to me. But that also depends on how your receiver does the volume control anyway. But I side with Badas. Timbre matching from the LF/RF to the C...eh. What with EQ tweaking, they don't sound as alike anyway. And if I run the same EQ of the towers to the center, the center sounds bleh. So there it is.

I don't think it's a matter of cutting the mustard or not, I just think it's a matter of the center channel design in and of itself, and the inherent drawbacks (from an acoustic design standpoint) of creating a speaker that sits horizontally and is far smaller than its matching tower brethren to create a similar sound. I draw this from my own experience in listening to matching centers/towers from a wide variety of manufacturers.

Call me crazy, but sometimes I feel like the design process for center channels - in all manufacturers - is just "make it X*Y*Z in size, and so it looks kind of the same as the [towers/bookshelves of the same line], use the same drivers from the [towers/bookshelves of the same line], slap em in an MTM arrangement, cut the price by 25-50%, and sell em"
That could be it ................ Just the deficiencies inherit in the design of horizontal center channels as seen here

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=89614

I guess the only solution would be buying a matching front speaker
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Old 02-17-2015, 12:36 AM   #2485
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Hello Gentleman.

This is a very interesting conversation. I had the same concerns when I changed my speaker array to the Klipsch Icon WF package. As dynamic as the speakers are, the 5.5" drivers alone guarantees that low end performance will be strickly for the accompanying subs.

Using SPL meters and REW calibration tools, I was able to improve the output across the front stage to near balanced performance. Not perfect mind you, but much better than before.

Now, here's my question? Doesn't current auto room correction calibration software built into today's pre-pro's and AVR's supposed to take speaker size/capabilities and room size and shape into acount during calibration, making up for deficiencies inherent in most room and speaker design? Is that an ambitious assumption?

I read time and time again how Audyssey XT32 is the holy grail when it comes to improving overall speaker dynamics, response and balancing output?

Granted, I will admit that there's not a single ARC software program that can fix a poorly designed speaker.
Regards,

My Room as of Sept 2014

"Chance favors only the prepared mind." Louis Pasteur

Last edited by ldgibson76; 02-17-2015 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 02-17-2015, 05:08 PM   #2486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post
Hello Gentleman.

This is a very interesting conversation. I had the same concerns when I changed my speaker array to the Klipsch Icon WF package. As dynamic as the speakers are, the 5.5" drivers alone guarantees that low end performance will be strickly for the accompanying subs.

Using SPL meters and REW calibration tools, I was able to improve the output across the front stage to near balanced performance. Not perfect mind you, but much better than before.

Now, here's my question? Doesn't current auto room correction calibration software built into today's pre-pro's and AVR's supposed to take speaker size/capabilities and room size and shape into acount during calibration, making up for deficiencies inherent in most room and speaker design? Is that an ambitious assumption?

I read time and time again how Audyssey XT32 is the holy grail when it comes to improving overall speaker dynamics, response and balancing output?

Granted, I will admit that there's not a single ARC software program that can fix a poorly designed speaker.
Good morning, Lawrence

See, now your last three paragraphs raise another interesting variable to the fold manufacturer-specific room correction software. For my part, Ive always felt that Pioneers MCACC was a little lacking in this although Ill note that I think this moreso because of what Ive read online as to MCACCs drawbacks versus the purported quality of Audyssey. Now, I only had Audyssey for 4 months when I owned a Marantz 7002 and that receiver failed for a wide variety of other reasons, so I cant accurately compare using personal experience. But online they preach the benefits of Audyssey versus the limited capacity of MCACC. I know nothing of YPAO beyond anecdotes here and there.

But I DO know that my existing room is an acoustic nightmare and I do wonder if Audyssey could do more here than MCACC. I feel like for the average room, yours is an OK assumption to make, like say an enclosed 15x20 room with 7 ceilings, or a living room. In my room, it may be a little ambitious - software can only do yet so much for physics, you know.

Since my entire unit is open plan and 2-stories, well...now Im not so sure that Audyssey or MCACC or YPAO can create miracles here with the center channel. The Venere towers are masterpieces and breathtakers. When I dB match my entire front three using my SPL meter, the center channel practically disappears. I have to raise it by around 3-4 dBs manually to ensure it is clearly audible over surrounding effects.

Hopefully the Grand Verus and my future new Marantz receiver will provide some answers.
- Orbis non Sufficit
================

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Old Yesterday, 02:18 PM   #2487
ShockWave ShockWave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post
Hello Gentleman.

This is a very interesting conversation. I had the same concerns when I changed my speaker array to the Klipsch Icon WF package. As dynamic as the speakers are, the 5.5" drivers alone guarantees that low end performance will be strickly for the accompanying subs.

Using SPL meters and REW calibration tools, I was able to improve the output across the front stage to near balanced performance. Not perfect mind you, but much better than before.

Now, here's my question? Doesn't current auto room correction calibration software built into today's pre-pro's and AVR's supposed to take speaker size/capabilities and room size and shape into acount during calibration, making up for deficiencies inherent in most room and speaker design? Is that an ambitious assumption?

I read time and time again how Audyssey XT32 is the holy grail when it comes to improving overall speaker dynamics, response and balancing output?

Granted, I will admit that there's not a single ARC software program that can fix a poorly designed speaker.

You wouod be amazed as to how good of a job it does do though. Unless you're in a studio no ones room is perfect. frim my experience xt32 is far superior then the others. Hopefully JJ will feel the same.
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