Sometimes bitstreaming a Blu-ray movie to a A/V receiver sounds better than BD player

[saprano]

Did you guys know on the PS3 slim you can still hear the menu clicks and beeps even when bitstreaming?

[BIslander]

^^
Only if you are outputting lossy. Lossless bitstreams do not include secondary audio.

Does the Slim now include lossless re-encoding?


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[BIslander]

HDTV1080p - You seem to be under the impression that PLIIx and DTS Neo:6 operate differently when engaged by a flag than they do when engaged manually by the end user. As far as I know, they do not. The PCM produced by decoding is identical regardless of where the decoding is done and PLIIx and DTS Neo:6 process it identically regardless of how they are invoked. It's not as though there's data that gets lost or changed somewhere in the processing chain, except for a metadata flag that tells the receiver to use one of those DSPs. Am I missing something here about how the processing is done?

[HDTV1080P]

That might be true but the problem is Stream Direct mode on the Pioneer is disabled when manually turning on the Dolby Prologic IIx and DTS Neo. Additional processing occurs when Stream Direct is disabled. I could do further testing and not use the Stream Direct feature and it might sound the same to manually turn on Dolby Prologic IIx when the Blu-ray player is sending PCM.

The other issue I have is that I only want Dolby Prologic IIx and DTS Neo coming on when the Blu-ray disc is encoded with the matrix flag. If I am listening to a 7.1 lossless audio track I am not interested in leaving Dolby Prologic IIx on all the time. I plan on always using the Stream Direct mode and Blu-ray bitstreaming so that Dolby Prologic IIx and DTS Neo 6 is only activated when the 5.1 lossless or 2.0 bonus material is encoded with the matrix flag.

[ramicio]

It's all in your head.

[BluRayNJV]

Hmm...
I haven't seen anybody talk about the options in a Bluray player vs. the options in an AV reciever?
Bass management--Audysess equilaization-- room correction--?

These features are much more extensive in AV recievers than even considered high bluray players.

I have heard of some newer recievers allowing the use of Audysess in the analog Multi channel in but legacy people most likely won't have this?

I know the bluray players generally have some options in them but not to the same degree.

[BIslander]

^^ Those comments only refer to differences between players and receivers when using multichannel analog outputs, which requires that all processing the the DAC be done in the player.

When discussing whether the decoding is done in a player for PCM output or a receiver with a bitstream output, those differences do not come into play. With digital transmission, the receiver does all processing such as bass management and room correction, no matter where the decoding is done. Some players do have DSPs such as DTS Neo:6 to expand the number of channels and players with DTS Master Audio Essential decoders will convert DTS-HD 5.1 tracks to 7.1. But, all of the fundamental processing will be done by the receiver and will be the same regardless of where the decoding is done.

The only exception would be some older, moderately priced receivers that cannot decode lossless tracks and apply room correction at the same time. In those cases, player decoding would be better because it allows the AVR to use processing tools not available with bitstream. But, that's a specific equipment limitation.

[raygendreau]

Here's an interesting development. If you want TrueHD 7.1 audio with new Sony players you will need to decode in your AVR, since they will only send 5.1 PCM.

"After about 4 weeks of working with Sony on this PCM Dolby TrueHD 7.1 issue, here is there response I got yesterday. Initially they stated it was only a Denon issue, then eventually admitted even their players were experiencing the same problem....which as you will see below, is not apparently a problem in their eyes.
After further investigation with our Sustaining engineering and Design teams we have found that 2012 and newer BD Players are only able to output Dolby Digital Sources over PCM up to 5.1 Channels Only, A part of this is due to the higher sampling rate (96KHZ) that Dobly uses as opposed to the (48KHZ) that DTS uses. This is by design and is not a flaw or defect, the players are functioning as intended and this will be the case for 2013 BD players as well . I apologize for the inconvenience and hope this addresses your concern.
I was baffled by this decision on this part and queried as to why this is so. Second response below.
As technology advances some features are considered obsolete. For Example, we have removed component outputs on our bd players because HDMI is now the primary medium for HD video + audio . Many new receivers that supports 7.1 channels will have built in Dolby Digital decoders that can natively decode the True HD 7.1 streams , therefore there really isn’t a need to force PCM on the dolby 7.1 true hd codec moving forward . It was an engineering + design decision to remove this feature and I apologize for the inconvenience but I will forward your feedback to our design teams.
Sadly I don't think I will ever understand why they removed PCM 7.1 TrueHD support. It makes no sense to me. If they didn't want 7.1 decoding then eliminate PCM support for DTS also. Looks like this is a dead issue. If you want PCM 7.1 support with Dolby TrueHD, time to spend your money elsewhere." (RajeeK AVS)

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Here's an interesting development. If you want TrueHD 7.1 audio with new Sony players you will need to decode in your AVR, since they will only send 5.1 PCM.

"After about 4 weeks of working with Sony on this PCM Dolby TrueHD 7.1 issue, here is there response I got yesterday. Initially they stated it was only a Denon issue, then eventually admitted even their players were experiencing the same problem....which as you will see below, is not apparently a problem in their eyes.
After further investigation with our Sustaining engineering and Design teams we have found that 2012 and newer BD Players are only able to output Dolby Digital Sources over PCM up to 5.1 Channels Only, A part of this is due to the higher sampling rate (96KHZ) that Dobly uses as opposed to the (48KHZ) that DTS uses. This is by design and is not a flaw or defect, the players are functioning as intended and this will be the case for 2013 BD players as well . I apologize for the inconvenience and hope this addresses your concern.
I was baffled by this decision on this part and queried as to why this is so. Second response below.
As technology advances some features are considered obsolete. For Example, we have removed component outputs on our bd players because HDMI is now the primary medium for HD video + audio . Many new receivers that supports 7.1 channels will have built in Dolby Digital decoders that can natively decode the True HD 7.1 streams , therefore there really isn’t a need to force PCM on the dolby 7.1 true hd codec moving forward . It was an engineering + design decision to remove this feature and I apologize for the inconvenience but I will forward your feedback to our design teams.
Sadly I don't think I will ever understand why they removed PCM 7.1 TrueHD support. It makes no sense to me. If they didn't want 7.1 decoding then eliminate PCM support for DTS also. Looks like this is a dead issue. If you want PCM 7.1 support with Dolby TrueHD, time to spend your money elsewhere." (RajeeK AVS)

Im curious, are SONY receivers with the Dolby TrueHD decoder able to output 7.1 TrueHD? (this is simply decoding into 7.1 PCM...not sure why would be ANY different for decoding in the player?)

Also, Dolby TrueHD supports 7.1 @ 96KHz/24bit, but only 5.1 for 192 KHz, so something is fishy about that Sony rep's response in regard to sampling freq as PCM is quite capable of 7.1 @ 192 KHz. So bandwidth should not be the issue?


But, I am reading this from the TrueHD whitepaper:

Due to the substream structure of Dolby TrueHD, a single Dolby TrueHD program can be used to deliver a two-, six-, or eight-channel presentation, each with precise control over the presentation as defined by the content producer. This means that an HD player only needs to decode the number of channels it can output, thus enabling more economical DSP decoder
designs.

So I guess it is possible that Sony limited the decoder inside the bluray player...but that's just bizarre.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

Im curious, are SONY receivers with the Dolby TrueHD decoder able to output 7.1 TrueHD? (this is simply decoding into 7.1 PCM...not sure why would be ANY different for decoding in the player?)

Also, Dolby TrueHD supports 7.1 @ 96KHz/24bit, but only 5.1 for 192 KHz, so something is fishy about that Sony rep's response in regard to sampling freq as PCM is quite capable of 7.1 @ 192 KHz. So bandwidth should not be the issue?


But, I am reading this from the TrueHD whitepaper:



So I guess it is possible that Sony limited the decoder inside the bluray player...but that's just bizarre.

Seems to me that the player's DSPs have a lot to deal with these days, what with complex branching, new iterations of DRM and decryption requirements. Perhaps doubling the sampling rate puts too much of a burden on the DSP and they address it by only outputting PCM 5.1 channels. And the players are processing both audio and video.

There are significant differences in home thater equipment, so its dificult to generalize about the DSPs in the AVRs. Some of them do process the video as well as the audio.

I'm not sure what the sony rep was up to, since he ignored the fact that there are DTS-HD MA 7.1 tracks with 96 Khz sampling, Samsara for example.

I have read that there is a greater processor burden when decoding DTS HD MA than there is for Dolby TrueHD. The exchange between the AVS poster and the Sony rep raises more questions than it answers.

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

The exchange between the AVS poster and the Sony rep raises more questions than it answers.

I agree.