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Old 06-29-2015, 04:07 PM   #1321
Blu-Dog Blu-Dog is offline
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Until recently, I'd been using my in-ceiling rear speakers as rear surrounds, but changed their designation to rear "presence" within the Yamaha RX-A3000 speaker assignment. I've found that, to my ears, the effect is a bit more convincing than I'd been accustomed to, even with native 7.1 DVD soundtracks.

The now discontinued RX-A3000 was listed on the Yamaha site as a 7.2 channel AVR, but was able to process up to 11 discrete channels with additional amplification. Although the upcoming Yamaha Aventage RX-A2050 is listed as 9.2, the rear panel does allow for 11 separate channels and is absolutely identical to the rear panel of the RX-A3000. I take this to mean that, with Yamaha's current ability to individually assign it's amplifiers, it will be capable of running a 7.2.4 system as long as a separate stereo amplifier is connected to 2 of the pre-out RCA jacks, allowing for 11 discrete channels, as you're hoping for. This is how I'm currently running my rig: I bi-amp my Vandersteen fronts via the AVR's front pre-outs and use the remaining 7 intrinsic amps in the AVR to run the center, 2 side surrounds and 4 presence speakers. With an additional stereo amplifier I could then run a full 11 channel configuration if I chose to add 2 more speakers as rear surrounds.

You can see the diagram for this 11 channel configuration for the "7.2" channel RX-A3000 if you go to the Yamaha web site, search on the RX-A3000 and then download the user manual. You will find the diagram on p.25 (top right), where it shows the 4 presence speakers being run by separate amplification. I have an excellent stand alone multichannel amp and use it to bi-amp my fronts (4 "channels"), rather than use the Yamaha for the fronts.

I have no reason to suspect that the RX-A2050 won't be capable of this allocation of resources, as long as Yamaha's proprietary version of the DTS:X "flexible" speaker assignment and subsequent processing is correctly implemented.

I can't find a 4 channel amplifier anywhere. 5-channel amps, yes - from Emotiva, Marantz, a few others - but just augmenting a 7-channel amp to give me the 4 height speakers just isn't in the cards, and they are not cheap. I know about the "presence" speakers, but I don't want to deal with that until it's all implemented in the receivers, cleanly and without duct tape.


The "flexible" speaker arrangement is OK with me. I saw Dolby, THX, and several others play real games with rear speaker placement in 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1; confusion was massive. I'm thinking that wide placement of whatever is installed will work for object-based sound, and that all of the drawings are still in best-guess mode.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:13 PM   #1322
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Until recently, I'd been using my in-ceiling rear speakers as rear surrounds, but changed their designation to rear "presence" within the Yamaha RX-A3000 speaker assignment. I've found that, to my ears, the effect is a bit more convincing than I'd been accustomed to, even with native 7.1 DVD soundtracks.

The now discontinued RX-A3000 was listed on the Yamaha site as a 7.2 channel AVR, but was able to process up to 11 discrete channels with additional amplification. Although the upcoming Yamaha Aventage RX-A2050 is listed as 9.2, the rear panel does allow for 11 separate channels and is absolutely identical to the rear panel of the RX-A3000. I take this to mean that, with Yamaha's current ability to individually assign it's amplifiers, it will be capable of running a 7.2.4 system as long as a separate stereo amplifier is connected to 2 of the pre-out RCA jacks, allowing for 11 discrete channels, as you're hoping for. This is how I'm currently running my rig: I bi-amp my Vandersteen fronts via the AVR's front pre-outs and use the remaining 7 intrinsic amps in the AVR to run the center, 2 side surrounds and 4 presence speakers. With an additional stereo amplifier I could then run a full 11 channel configuration if I chose to add 2 more speakers as rear surrounds.

You can see the diagram for this 11 channel configuration for the "7.2" channel RX-A3000 if you go to the Yamaha web site, search on the RX-A3000 and then download the user manual. You will find the diagram on p.25 (top right), where it shows the 4 presence speakers being run by separate amplification. I have an excellent stand alone multichannel amp and use it to bi-amp my fronts (4 "channels"), rather than use the Yamaha for the fronts.

I have no reason to suspect that the RX-A2050 won't be capable of this allocation of resources, as long as Yamaha's proprietary version of the DTS:X "flexible" speaker assignment and subsequent processing is correctly implemented.
The 2050 does NOT do 7/1/4.

Only the 3050 does.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:48 PM   #1323
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Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
Every Denon I've ever seen runs hot, just like Onkyo, another hotplate of a receiver. My brother in law finally got rid of his - you simply can't use them in an enclosed space without special cooling, it goes into protection mode.


I think they sound nice, but I've had a bug about inefficiency in electronics for years, and the primary symptom is waste heat. I'm glad you like and enjoy yours, but it is definitely an issue, especially in an enclosed cabinet shared with other components, played at reference levels.


I guess an open cabinet is OK to use, or blow fans over it, or something. I have computers, cable boxes, and disc players in two of mine, and heat is not good for other components, or your electric bill. I like more efficiency in my gear, but I've been dealing with electronics for about 40 years and have stories to tell about hot-running gear.


The same company makes Denon and Marantz. Marantz is more efficient, and a lot pricier, too. Both sound very nice. I'll go with Marantz, given a choice.
Never owned a Marantz, they seem a little overpriced to me. I'd rather have Denon anyway, again, they're easy to set up and are usually power houses. I haven't experienced any overheating all the times I've owned Denon. I like Pioneer Elite, but they are not easy to set up and get right. Denon is about as plug and play as you can get from an A/V receiver.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:00 PM   #1324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
I can't find a 4 channel amplifier anywhere. 5-channel amps, yes - from Emotiva, Marantz, a few others - but just augmenting a 7-channel amp to give me the 4 height speakers just isn't in the cards, and they are not cheap. I know about the "presence" speakers, but I don't want to deal with that until it's all implemented in the receivers, cleanly and without duct tape.


The "flexible" speaker arrangement is OK with me. I saw Dolby, THX, and several others play real games with rear speaker placement in 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1; confusion was massive. I'm thinking that wide placement of whatever is installed will work for object-based sound, and that all of the drawings are still in best-guess mode.
i was using a 5 channel & a 2 channel for my 7.1 system. i got a factory refurbished UPA-700 amp from emotiva with a year warranty for $325 i've replaced the 2 channel amp with the 7 channel amp and am using 2 of the 5 channels. so i'm set for 7.1.4 when i upgrade my pre-amp to DTS-X/ATMOS perhaps later this year.
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:36 PM   #1325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
I saw Dolby, THX, and several others play real games with rear speaker placement in 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1; confusion was massive. I'm thinking that wide placement of whatever is installed will work for object-based sound, and that all of the drawings are still in best-guess mode.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. 5.1 has surrounds to the sides. 6.1 adds a rear surround in the middle. 7.1 has surrounds to the side and rear surround. I don't think there was any confusion about that. Where I think there was confusion for many consumers was the difference between all the processing modes in a receiver and/or the difference between Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital True HD and likewise for DTS: the difference between DTS and DTS-HD master audio. As well as the difference between all the Dolby Pro Logic modes, etc.

And I think most neophyte consumers have absolutely no idea what Audyssey and other room correction systems accomplish.

Not to mention the confusion in theatrical presentation between seeing a 35mm film with digital sound and fully digital presentation when newspaper ads and theatre marquees simply displayed "digital", but that's pretty much over now that 35mm film presentation is practically gone.
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:46 PM   #1326
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
The "flexible" speaker arrangement is OK with me. I saw Dolby, THX, and several others play real games with rear speaker placement in 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1; confusion was massive. I'm thinking that wide placement of whatever is installed will work for object-based sound, and that all of the drawings are still in best-guess mode.

They DIDN'T play games.


It was DTS going against the standard, and it's also their stupid processing that clones the side channels to the rear in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing. Blame them for the confusion.
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Old 06-30-2015, 07:20 PM   #1327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
Seems pretty straightforward to me. 5.1 has surrounds to the sides. 6.1 adds a rear surround in the middle. 7.1 has surrounds to the side and rear surround. I don't think there was any confusion about that.

The positioning of the rear surrounds is randomly dictated as directly adjacent to each other, slightly separated, and widely separated. THX wanted them to be right next to each other, and manufacturers wanted them more widely separated. For years, I kept them about three feet apart, and just recently separated them widely. I like the wider soundfield when not using them for movies in 7 channel stereo mode, and it doesn't hurt encoded sound at all.


I remember some heated controversy about it (not here, but in the press) and just went with the THX recommendation. But that essentially make everything 6.1...sounded like an agenda to me.




Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
Where I think there was confusion for many consumers was the difference between all the processing modes in a receiver and/or the difference between Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital True HD and likewise for DTS: the difference between DTS and DTS-HD master audio. As well as the difference between all the Dolby Pro Logic modes, etc.

It wasn't a problem early on, when everything was LPCM. Then came the lossless codecs - again, not too bad, though DTS sent some manufacturers into a tizzy (my own frustration with Pioneer doing their hat-dancing, along with Sony, irked me somewhat). But the Dolby sub-codecs - IIz, IIx, and whatever else wandered through the room - I've never bothered to untangle. Nothing came pre-encoded for them that I've encountered, and it's largely a non-issue for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
And I think most neophyte consumers have absolutely no idea what Audyssey and other room correction systems accomplish.

I use MCACC, manually; real stone-age stuff. Never used Audyssey, and I look at it somewhat askance anyway. Maybe it works for some people, but I have little interest in have a robot knob-dicking with audio delay, oddball volume changes, and stuff like that. Even with a fairly large main theater room, even a simple rearrangement of furniture might call for another change, and basically, I don't trust robots. I'm a computer guy, which may be part of the reason - not knocking anyone else's good experience with it, I just think there are too many possibly unnecessary things going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
Not to mention the confusion in theatrical presentation between seeing a 35mm film with digital sound and fully digital presentation when newspaper ads and theatre marquees simply displayed "digital", but that's pretty much over now that 35mm film presentation is practically gone.

Yeah, the good old days...when a 100 watt amp and two big-ass speakers playing Dark Side Of The Moon was all that was required. I used the TV's headphone out jack to play Jurassic Park for the neighborhood kids, and when T-Rex stepped in the puddle outside the paddock, everyone went "whoa". They'd never felt that kind of sound pressure in the theater.
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Old 06-30-2015, 07:48 PM   #1328
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
They DIDN'T play games.

You mean they were serious when the said to place the rear surrounds right next to each other? I was hoping that it was some evidence of a sense of humor, and went along with it for 7.1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
It was DTS going against the standard, and it's also their stupid processing that clones the side channels to the rear in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing. Blame them for the confusion.

I got that diagram from THX, sometime back in 2007, when they and Dolby were tight as ticks with the format. DTS wasn't even a twinkle in they eye of the industry, really. I was a Dolby fan. Not any more - nothing against them, but Holy Writ should not change with the seasons, and shoes should all correspond to some kind of uniform size chart.


I now have four height speakers on extending arms for 3-D sound (haven't incorporated Auro-3D's, "voice of God" central speaker yet, and may not have to) but I still haven't heard plain talk from the Atmos fiends about how many overheads I should have, or where, or even if not hanging them from the ceiling will even work.


All that's out there are 9.2 "Atmos Receivers" (and some with 9.2 processing, requiring an additional amp - what's up with that) , and rushed updates of them that play DTS:X, after a fashion. This thing - Atmos or DTS:X - is going to wind up with at least four height speakers, and nobody is ready for it yet, even though they know it's going to be the standard. Thus the "11.4 processing" with pre-outs for the last two channels.


What a cock-up. These are Atmos-licensed receivers, mind you - and it's clear they're insufficient for what's coming. I almost bought one, but after a fairly thorough grilling from my wife, complete with waterboarding and having my head slammed against one of my receivers without DTS-HD (I have two, but she relented - she's really a nice girl, most times) but with Dolby lossless, I just hung my head and swore to wait.


After the wife and I clean up the sawdust, I'll post snapshots. No way I'm climbing on the Atmos-only bus, and cursing at DTS isn't my raison d'etre, though we may differ on that subject. Dolby is always in a hurry to corral that licensing money, and rushes in (complete with useless modes, like DRC), and altering their modes, as nice as some are.


Rushing after them usually requires being shot from a cannon, something I have trouble getting used to. It usually winds up with me being buried, headfirst and waist-deep, in a swamp. Evenif I come out cursing DTS, I don't think it will engender respect. In fact, it will probably wind up like it always does, with bystanders shaking their heads, and making comments about it being my own damned fault for jumping the gun, or taking a ride in it, as it were.

Last edited by Blu-Dog; 06-30-2015 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 06-30-2015, 09:07 PM   #1329
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The 2050 does NOT do 7/1/4.

Only the 3050 does.
Schan1269,

Have you actually seen the user manual for this AVR? I realize that the Yamaha site indicates that the RX-A2050 is only specified as 5.1.4 (I know it can do 5.2.4). However, if you go to the on-line Yamaha product page for the 2050 and select the tab for "Features", then scroll down to "Speaker Layout Patterns for Dolby Atmos & DTS:X Playback", you'll notice that the examples for both "front height" and "overhead" configurations show 11 speakers in each.

What I stated was that, given Yamaha's native ability to assign the 9 amplifiers in this box, it may very well come to be that all 11 channels (plus sub-woofer outs) may be able to be configured with the assistance of 2 additional channels of amplification through the pre-outs.

There's little doubt in my mind that the same DTS:X firmware will be shared by both the 3050 & 2050 boxes, so I'll wait and see how many processed channels can be active at any one time in the 2050. Isn't one of the carrots for DTS:X the infinite number of speakers in their object based environment?
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:47 PM   #1330
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
I got that diagram from THX, sometime back in 2007, when they and Dolby were tight as ticks with the format. DTS wasn't even a twinkle in they eye of the industry, really. I was a Dolby fan. Not any more - nothing against them, but Holy Writ should not change with the seasons, and shoes should all correspond to some kind of uniform size chart.

What are you talking about? The "rear speakers only a few feet apart" are an option - and one I used in my apartment. The official recommended option are what both Dolby and THX recommend, and they helped *make* the standard by coming up with Surround EX in 1999.


Quote:
After the wife and I clean up the sawdust, I'll post snapshots. No way I'm climbing on the Atmos-only bus, and cursing at DTS isn't my raison d'etre, though we may differ on that subject. Dolby is always in a hurry to corral that licensing money, and rushes in (complete with useless modes, like DRC), and altering their modes, as nice as some are.
And what does that mean? They spend years developing their stuff and don't add and discard stuff "just because". Then DTS copies them.
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Old 06-30-2015, 11:57 PM   #1331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post

I got that diagram from THX, sometime back in 2007, when they and Dolby were tight as ticks with the format. DTS wasn't even a twinkle in they eye of the industry, really. I was a Dolby fan. Not any more - nothing against them, but Holy Writ should not change with the seasons, and shoes should all correspond to some kind of uniform size chart.
I don't know how you associated that quote to me...I didn't make it.
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Old 07-02-2015, 01:22 PM   #1332
Blu-Dog Blu-Dog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
I don't know how you associated that quote to me...I didn't make it.

Odd...apologies for any confusion.


Edit: Cut and paste foul ball...sorry about that.

Last edited by Blu-Dog; 07-02-2015 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 07-02-2015, 04:34 PM   #1333
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http://m.highdefdigest.com/news/show...-blurays/24179

Whoa! Game of Thrones getting the Dolby Atmos treatment!
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:52 AM   #1334
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I'm building an Atmos theater in my basement. 18X14X9. Klipsch RF 7ii's, RC 64, RP-250s's, RP-160m's, R-115SW, and 4 KL-7502 in ceiling speakers. Marantz 8802, Parasond A51 and 2 A31's. About a month away from completion but should be pretty good for experiencing Atmos audio. I hear with the right setup the audio is pretty amazing.
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Old 07-03-2015, 05:47 PM   #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UPSandy View Post
I'm building an Atmos theater in my basement. 18X14X9. Klipsch RF 7ii's, RC 64, RP-250s's, RP-160m's, R-115SW, and 4 KL-7502 in ceiling speakers. Marantz 8802, Parasond A51 and 2 A31's. About a month away from completion but should be pretty good for experiencing Atmos audio. I hear with the right setup the audio is pretty amazing.
may I suggest a blog of the project .. with photos
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Old Yesterday, 02:41 AM   #1336
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I don't know about blogging but I'll definitely keep you updated.....also getting the Sony VPL-VW600ES on a Dragonfly 106' high contrast screen. Pretty excited.
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Old Yesterday, 01:06 PM   #1337
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It's not difficult to understand why. That's some kick-ass gear you'll be enjoying!
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependant on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do. - Galileo
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Old Yesterday, 03:40 PM   #1338
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Yeah these KL-7502's are beasts. Almost feels wasteful just to be using them for atmospheric sound. But what the hell......you live once and the audio should be pretty amazing and engulfing.
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Old Yesterday, 06:03 PM   #1339
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Just swapped out my Onkyo 3010 for a Denon x5200w. Even with my existing 7.1 + Pro-Logic IIz heights setup, Atmos and Dolby Surround blows my old AVR out of the water. Going to install ceiling speakers next week or so for 7.1.4, leaving the front heights where they are and doing two on-ceiling speakers for top mid. Gonna use a pair of Polk OWM5 in the corners of a ceiling fan recess for this purpose, which should work nicely.

I can't brag on Dolby Surround and Atmos enough. With Atmos material, it's insane... but even with non-Atmos discs and Dolby Surround overlaid onto 5.1 and 7.1 tracks, it sounds near-Atmos. Watched Godzilla (2014) and was stunned at how much better it sounded. Can't wait to get my ceiling speakers up and watch it again!
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