Fantasia 2 Movie Collection - Fantasia / Fantasia 2000 - November 30

[MykeHavoc]

I found both BD discs sans cover-art at one of the local Blockbusters going out of business. Got them and Beauty and the Beast for a whopping 5 bucks. Can't beat that.

[supervij]

Hi all. I watched/listened to Fantasia last night and it was certainly as riveting experience as I remember. But something about the 7.1 seemed very lacking.

My surround sound is level-matched (albeit done a year or so ago) but the vast majority of the sound seemed to be coming from the three front speakers. There definitely was sound coming from my surrounds and rear surround but I had to stand near them to notice it. From the prime seating location, the music from the surrounds couldn't be heard -- they were drowned out by the music from the front three.

Has anyone else had this experience with this Blu-ray? Where the music seems to be coming from the fronts and centre only?

[TonyWDA]

Originally Posted by supervij

Hi all. I watched/listened to Fantasia last night and it was certainly as riveting experience as I remember. But something about the 7.1 seemed very lacking.

My surround sound is level-matched (albeit done a year or so ago) but the vast majority of the sound seemed to be coming from the three front speakers. There definitely was sound coming from my surrounds and rear surround but I had to stand near them to notice it. From the prime seating location, the music from the surrounds couldn't be heard -- they were drowned out by the music from the front three.

Has anyone else had this experience with this Blu-ray? Where the music seems to be coming from the fronts and centre only?

Absolutely.

I'll bring up what I brought up a while back: For some bizarre reason, the sound team for this release thought it'd make more sense to have the monaural mix-down tracks sit at the front of the sound stage, while having the restored stereophonic recordings sit at the rear, at a slightly lower volume to add insult to injury. While one could argue artistic liberty (it's 7.1 - "get creative", yada yada...) it still ruins the original experience of Fantasia: having the orchestral tracks directionally correlate to its visual counterpart; and for the most part have this happen at the front of the sound stage, not the rear. When Chernabog's wing swings to the left of the screen in "A Night on Bald Mountain", most of the music would also pan to the left channel. As the leaves blow in the wind from the left of the screen to the right and vice versa in "The Nutcracker Suite", the music would follow these directions respectfully in the sound field.

Again, I suppose one could argue these choices for the sake of creative license, but it's not the Fantasia I remember; or hardly anyone for that matter.

[supervij]

Tony, thanks for that. When something like this happens, I always wonder if maybe the fault is some setting in my player or receiver or bad speaker levels or bad speaker placement. Good to know I'm not alone in not being blown away by the surround sound treatment of this disc.

[TonyWDA]

Originally Posted by supervij

Tony, thanks for that. When something like this happens, I always wonder if maybe the fault is some setting in my player or receiver or bad speaker levels or bad speaker placement. Good to know I'm not alone in not being blown away by the surround sound treatment of this disc.

My pleasure! ^^

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by TonyWDA

Absolutely.

I'll bring up what I brought up a while back: For some bizarre reason, the sound team for this release thought it'd make more sense to have the monaural mix-down tracks sit at the front of the sound stage, while having the restored stereophonic recordings sit at the rear, at a slightly lower volume to add insult to injury. While one could argue artistic liberty (it's 7.1 - "get creative", yada yada...) it still ruins the original experience of Fantasia: having the orchestral tracks directionally correlate to its visual counterpart; and for the most part have this happen at the front of the sound stage, not the rear. When Chernabog's wing swings to the left of the screen in "A Night on Bald Mountain", most of the music would also pan to the left channel. As the leaves blow in the wind from the left of the screen to the right and vice versa in "The Nutcracker Suite", the music would follow these directions respectfully in the sound field.

Again, I suppose one could argue these choices for the sake of creative license, but it's not the Fantasia I remember; or hardly anyone for that matter.

I remember Roy Disney referring to the original mix as "crazy" before he died -- it could very well be the directional panning was muted for modern sensibilities. Still, Waltz of the Flowers sounds like an absolute mess unless you crank your rears up a few more db than usual.

[Ernest Rister]

By the way, Tony - congratulations to you on your work. I'm completely knocked out (and more happy than ever that I have that LP).

[TonyWDA]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I remember Roy Disney referring to the original mix as "crazy" before he died -- it could very well be the directional panning was muted for modern sensibilities. Still, Waltz of the Flowers sounds like an absolute mess unless you crank your rears up a few more db than usual.

By the way, Tony - congratulations to you on your work. I'm completely knocked out (and more happy than ever that I have that LP).

I knew I wasn't going crazy! (At least in this situation.)
Today it seems unreasonable to pan several orchestral tracks from one side to the other, but surround sound was a gimmick in ye olden days of animation. Music had finally been given the chance to dance around the theater, in a manner of speaking, and Disney really took advantage of this with Fantasound. I give credit to the Laserdisc from the early 90s for staying true to the stereophonic information. While the mix did carry over to the Blu-ray... again, it sits on the rear of the soundstage; and unless you mute the first 3 channels or, as you suggested, crank the volume up a notch you won't make any of it out.

I'm still amazed you were actually able to meet Roy, and to get his two cents on this subject matter is just as incredible.

And thank you so much for the kind words!! Very glad people are liking the results on this project (though it indeed still needs work). As for the LP... yeah, please hang on to that. As I stated in the video, that's closest we'll get to what it sounded like in 1940 as well as Fantasia's 1956 re-release (as far as panning is concerned, not as much in clarity).

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by TonyWDA

Absolutely.

I'll bring up what I brought up a while back: For some bizarre reason, the sound team for this release thought it'd make more sense to have the monaural mix-down tracks sit at the front of the sound stage, while having the restored stereophonic recordings sit at the rear, at a slightly lower volume to add insult to injury. While one could argue artistic liberty (it's 7.1 - "get creative", yada yada...) it still ruins the original experience of Fantasia: having the orchestral tracks directionally correlate to its visual counterpart; and for the most part have this happen at the front of the sound stage, not the rear. When Chernabog's wing swings to the left of the screen in "A Night on Bald Mountain", most of the music would also pan to the left channel. As the leaves blow in the wind from the left of the screen to the right and vice versa in "The Nutcracker Suite", the music would follow these directions respectfully in the sound field.

Again, I suppose one could argue these choices for the sake of creative license, but it's not the Fantasia I remember; or hardly anyone for that matter.

The Fantasia you remember? The Fantasia you remember was probably a remix because all of the original sound equipment was lost during World War II when it was sent to Europe during the lend-lease program.

According to my records, Fantasia was released as follows:
11/12/1940 Roadshow 2:04:22 (Fantasound and Optical Mono) RKO Radio Distribution.

1/10/1941 Modified Recut (sound unknown, but probably Optical mono) National Distribution

1/6/1942 Short Version 1:20:59 (probably Optical mono)

1946 (Optical Mono)

July 1947 1:55:45 (sound mono) Interstitial segments shortened. This cut basis for 1990 re-release

2/7/1956 1:55:45 Superscope 2.2:1 (Optical mono, mag stereo) Optically converted from 1.33 to 2.2. Optical tracks converted to mag stereo.

2/20/63 1:56:36 Superscope (Optical mono, mag stereo) (timing difference unexplained)

12/17/69 4th reissue 1:55:45 (Optical mono, mag stereo) Deleted stereotypes in "Pastoral"

1976: RKO logo replaced with Buena Vista Distribution

4/15/77 5th reissue 1:53:10 (Optical mono, mag sereo)

4/2/82 New soundtrack by Kostal 1:53:10 (Dolby Optical Stereo, Dolby Mag Stereo). New interstitial segments.

2/8/1985 7th reissue 1:54:16 (Dolby mag, Dolby optical, Digital interlock)

1990 8th reissue 1:55:45. Restored to 1947 edition. (Dolby Optical, Dolby SR, 70mm Baby Boom, 70mm Fantasound

June, 2000 Restored Roadshow. 2:04:22 Reassembled 1940 Roadshow release for Animation Film Festival in Annesey, france.

Blu-ray (2:05 according to pkging, which probably means 2:04:22)

[TonyWDA]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

The Fantasia you remember? The Fantasia you remember was probably a remix because all of the original sound equipment was lost during World War II when it was sent to Europe during the lend-lease program.

I'll elaborate. When I said "the Fantasia I remember" I was referring more to the ever-so-faithful restoration from 1990. So... yeah, the remix. The Blu-ray does present these restored recordings, but again, mostly through the rear of the soundstage (has to be the third or fourth time I bring this up).

I do remember Marc Davis noting that Fantasound would travel "from the back of the theater down to the screen in some places..." (see "Fantasia: The Making of a Masterpiece") and though the sound team for the Blu-ray did, from what I can tell, try to preserve/recreate this effect... they were only about halfway there. Not only were the stereophonic recordings put to sit at the rear channels (fifth time) but they can't be made out as much as one can make out the monaural tracks booming from the front of the soundstage. These tracks easily overpower the sound coming from the back of the room -- almost completely muting the directional panning presented in the stereophonic tracks, as opposed to having a firm balance between back, forth, back, forth, so on and so forth. Again, I certainly see what the team was going for (most likely preserving the effect Davis had referred to) but even with the best sound system and calibration applied this mix falls short of the wonders the sound team could've worked for this release -- if not in the music's clarity and fidelity then at least in its directional information. Again, I feel as though they only got about halfway there, and considering it'd been 10 years since the last release of Fantasia by the time the Blu-ray came around this was not as impressive an effort as it could've been. (Funny how the volume of only one track was just a part of the few yet considerable contributing factors to the caliber of this mix.)

Apologies for not getting in to as much depth as I could have when I was referring to the "Fantasia I remember", but... yeah, there you have it; this is what I meant.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by TonyWDA

I'm still amazed you were actually able to meet Roy, and to get his two cents on this subject matter is just as incredible.

Oh, sorry, Tony - I never meant to give the impression that I met Roy. I wrote to him a few times, but he didn't respond. The late Roy Disney calls the original sound panning "crazy" on - I think - one of the F2K bonus features, but he meant it in a fond way.

Still, I think the dramatic sound panning from the original Fantasound is muted for modern sensibilities...who knows, in this day and age, maybe Disney was afraid of lawsuits over "sound sickness" -- music moving all over the room could make extremely gentle souls nauseous.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by TonyWDA

I'll elaborate. When I said "the Fantasia I remember" I was referring more to the ever-so-faithful restoration from 1990. So... yeah, the remix. The Blu-ray does present these restored recordings, but again, mostly through the rear of the soundstage (has to be the third or fourth time I bring this up).

I do remember Marc Davis noting that Fantasound would travel "from the back of the theater down to the screen in some places..." (see "Fantasia: The Making of a Masterpiece") and though the sound team for the Blu-ray did, from what I can tell, try to preserve/recreate this effect... they were only about halfway there. Not only were the stereophonic recordings put to sit at the rear channels (fifth time) but they can't be made out as much as one can make out the monaural tracks booming from the front of the soundstage. These tracks easily overpower the sound coming from the back of the room -- almost completely muting the directional panning presented in the stereophonic tracks, as opposed to having a firm balance between back, forth, back, forth, so on and so forth. Again, I certainly see what the team was going for (most likely preserving the effect Davis had referred to) but even with the best sound system and calibration applied this mix falls short of the wonders the sound team could've worked for this release -- if not in the music's clarity and fidelity then at least in its directional information. Again, I feel as though they only got about halfway there, and considering it'd been 10 years since the last release of Fantasia by the time the Blu-ray came around this was not as impressive an effort as it could've been. (Funny how the volume of only one track was just a part of the few yet considerable contributing factors to the caliber of this mix.)

Apologies for not getting in to as much depth as I could have when I was referring to the "Fantasia I remember", but... yeah, there you have it; this is what I meant.

Marc Davis was referring to the Ave Maria, I suppose, as I've read that the Ave Maria sequence was the only true demonstration of FantaSound in the original road show versions. You'l find anecdotal reports of people turning around in their seat when the Church bell rings to thwart Chernobog, for instance. Don't quote or rely on this, but my understanding is that this was the only "full" Fantasound sequence, as the choir moved through towards the screen while the orchestra was soundly placed. There's no way to replicate that today, because all the individual optical tracks were mixed down to - what - three channels? That's why, I think, Ave Maria's choir effects have always sounded so weird and distorted, even on the 50's LP.

It brings up an interesting point...70 years from now, will audiences be able to enjoy the original audio mix of any of our modern films in the way they sound today? The original Fantasound is lost forever...how long until technology makes our own modern work with surround audio obsolete and difficult to replicate...

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

July 1947 1:55:45 (sound mono) Interstitial segments shortened. This cut basis for 1990 re-release

2/7/1956 1:55:45 Superscope 2.2:1 (Optical mono, mag stereo) Optically converted from 1.33 to 2.2. Optical tracks converted to mag stereo.

12/17/69 4th reissue 1:55:45 (Optical mono, mag stereo) Deleted stereotypes in "Pastoral"

Isn't it amazing and an awesome coincidence how your records state the "deleted stereotypes" version has the same running time as the 1947 "Popular" version and the same running time as the 1956 "CinemaScope" version? Leonard Maltin, in his tome The Disney Films states the Sunflower scenes were cut "since the 50's". To this day, I have never found a compelling explanation as to why the "censored" Fantasia post-Walt's death 1969 version has the same exact running time down to the second as the version released one year after Song of the the South (1946), and now you state the film had the same running time in 1956. The on-disc liner notes for the Fantasia Anthology DVD even state it is "unexplained" how the 1969 version shares the same running time with the 1947 (post Song of the South) version.

Maybe Maltin's right, and certain offensive shots had been cut from the film since the 50's, and shoot, maybe even earlier, after the brouhaha over the Urban League boycott of Song of the South. We all know the uncut version aired on TV, but I don't know, I only ask "what if".

[SwaggerJagger]

Why don't people just buy the Discs Only because they're about $18 for both on eBay and then get the packaging from Disney for $3.95+ ?

[batch1nyy]

I have two copies of fantasia/fantasia 2000 that's I would trade or sell.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by TonyWDA

Apologies for not getting in to as much depth as I could have when I was referring to the "Fantasia I remember", but... yeah, there you have it; this is what I meant.

Hey, Tony -- I've got your next project. Intrada is releasing the complete and original BALCK CAULDRON scoring sessions (already ordered my CD), and it would be a hoot and a half to run the Cauldron Born sequence from the new DVD against the actual scoring performed and conducted by Bernstein. In other words, you'd find the infamous Katzenberg cuts to THE BLACK CAULDRON pretty easily by finding the musical gaps in the score. The cuts to the movie came so late in the game, Bernstein did not recompose bridges to fill in those holes. So, it shouldn't be much of a task to create a video showing exactly where those cuts are, with the actual music intended to highlight and dramatize them.

Roy Disney told one of the animators that the original negative for Cauldron in the Disney vaults is the uncut Cauldron...who knows...some day we might see what Katzenberg was trying to protect our young innocent eyes from all those years ago (he famously said he made the cuts to "relieve the darkness" of the film, when the violence and darkness and mature subject matter was sort of the alleged selling point of that PG animated film). In a few days, we all get to hear what we've been missing.

I'd love to see what you could do with it...making a video showing the sequence gaps between the cut version and the full version (minus the video).

Just an idea.

Best,

ER3

[SpaceDog]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Isn't it amazing and an awesome coincidence how your records state the "deleted stereotypes" version has the same running time as the 1947 "Popular" version and the same running time as the 1956 "CinemaScope" version? Leonard Maltin, in his tome The Disney Films states the Sunflower scenes were cut "since the 50's". To this day, I have never found a compelling explanation as to why the "censored" Fantasia post-Walt's death 1969 version has the same exact running time down to the second as the version released one year after Song of the the South (1946), and now you state the film had the same running time in 1956. The on-disc liner notes for the Fantasia Anthology DVD even state it is "unexplained" how the 1969 version shares the same running time with the 1947 (post Song of the South) version.

Maybe Maltin's right, and certain offensive shots had been cut from the film since the 50's, and shoot, maybe even earlier, after the brouhaha over the Urban League boycott of Song of the South. We all know the uncut version aired on TV, but I don't know, I only ask "what if".

I don't know about all the cuts, but I understand the pastoral stereotypes were scanned out by zooming and reframing.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by SpaceDog

I don't know about all the cuts, but I understand the pastoral stereotypes were scanned out by zooming and reframing.

In 1947?

[SpaceDog]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

In 1947?

Can't speak to the "when" of it, but I understand that's what appears now.
I know how you'd digitally come to that solution, but reasonably could they not have reframed the negative to create a lower resolution section even with film editing tools?

[SpaceDog]

Also - how is the runtime being affirmed? Is it not also possible that pieces were cut, but theaters simply kept reporting the original runtime?