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Old 12-22-2012, 05:57 AM   #1
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India/Bollywood The Indian Music Discussion Thread

...so as not to derail some of the other threads After some very interesting tete-a-tetes with Mrbrat and like folks, I feel there is good scope for discussion on this topic.

This thread can extend to all genres of Indian music, be it film ST's, classical music, Indian pop/rock, fusion, new age, whatever. The idea is to air views on all varieties of Indian music and find like-minded listeners. I would request people to make posts that describe what they like in their music so that it's not just a rote "I heard dis n it was gud" thread. So long as we all respect each others personal opinion we should be alright, I think

It would normally behoove me to start the discussion, but allow me some time before I chip in. Anyone else that wants to kick off, please feel free.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:56 PM   #2
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I've been trending on Amit Trivedi's music for a large part of this year. Dev D is indeed a miracle of sorts. Even after 3 years of it's release, it doesn't get repetitive. Tracks like Emosanal Attyachaar, Nayan Tarse, Paayaliya, Pardesi, Saali Khushi, Dhol Yaara Dhol all have it's charms. The latter most song is particularly, in my opinion, the most gorgeous-sounding song I've heard in a long..long time.

Now, after listening to Aiyyaa & Luv Shuv Tey Chicken Khurana(probably my favourite hindi film soundtrack of the year, I'm not sure yet). Amit Trivedi is an artist to be taken seriously. Quite frankly, I haven't been this inspired by a musical artist since A.R. Rahman. It also dawned on me: that Trivedi had also worked on Udaan, which isn't a masterpiece of the level of Dev D, but it does have one of the best songs of the year of it's release "Aazaadiyan".

Last edited by DVD_C; 12-23-2012 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:25 AM   #3
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^Agree with the praise for Trivedi. When I saw Dev.D at the cinema I was astounded by the score, how fresh and exciting it sounded, and how much it tied in with the aesthetic of the film. To me it was the best score for that year (not that I seek out many Bollywood movie scores). Even though Filmfare awards ignored him to reward AR Rahman for another farted out whimper, I'm glad the National Awards committee for that year recognized his genius. When I got the CD I used to hear it several times, which is rare so far as me and soundtrack albums go.
The best thing for me about that score is the sheer variety of genres it traverses, sometimes within a song, without sounding like an ugly mishmash. The 2 versions of Emotional Atyaachaar are fantastic (the second version is one of the few Hindi 'rock' songs I've heard that doesn't sound like complete ass), Duniya is catchy as hell, Nayan Tarse, Saali Khushi, Dhol Yaara and Aankh Micholi are amazing. Payaliya, I normally would not have cared for but he does it with just the right amount of sweetness for it to work. Hell, Bhangrapop-stuff which normally annoys me is also done nicely in songs like Mahi Mainu and Hiknaal. There are some meh, bland numbers but when you've got around 18 songs in an album, not all are bound to work. That fact that so many do is in itself a tremendous achievement. And Trivedi also has an interesting voice, it makes the songs he sings very noticeable and, unlike Rahman's wheezy whiny tenor, in a good way.

Just realized all my praise for Trivedi is based on Dev.D. Haven't heard anything hugely distinctive from him after that, but maybe I have not watched the right movies.

Last edited by ravenus; 12-23-2012 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:50 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ravenus View Post
Just realized all my praise for Trivedi is based on Dev.D. Haven't heard anything hugely distinctive from him after that, but maybe I have not watched the right movies.
He has not been able to produce anything like that after that so i guess it was not talent but just maybe luck first time , the albums released afterwards are plain average or just below average , below the level of consistency that other composers have been able to achieve , guys like Vishal Shekhar and Pritam (surprised me this year with Barfi! and Cocktail was a solid effort too!) are much more consistant.
AR Rahman cannot be matched by AMIT in anyways , the vast diversity of genres the genius has delivered in years with such creativity is mesmerising ,AMIT's songs were never able to come even close to Rahman's best , Amit's creativity is limited to few electronic rhythms (which arguably Pritam or Salim Sulaiman in their background scores have been able to produce much better) and auto tune is used more than required and that melody or sweetness is sorely missed in many of his songs of that genre!
Having said that Amit's ISHAQZAADE is my second favorite album after cocktail and Barfi this year and Pareshan is indeed work of a creative genious! (The fusion of Rock with Indian music and that jugalbandi of Guitar with Harmonium and the Cello playing in between!Fabulous! ) its mindblowing! Cocktail was just more consistant and one of the very few albums in which almost all the songs worked! It is Pritam's take on Amit's genre and i like it more than DEV-D!
Barfi on the other hand is unusually Pritam and has one of the best melody in years! The score is just Pure Bliss!!And here also almost all the songs in the album worked!
So the bottom line is Amit Trivedi is indeed different in a few ways from the rest of crowd , however that itself does not make him better than them! This man cannot be ignored but is nowhere close to the best Indian music has to offer!

Last edited by divyansh; 12-23-2012 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:41 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divyansh View Post
AR Rahman cannot be matched by AMIT in anyways , the vast diversity of genres the genius has delivered in years with such creativity is mesmerising, AMIT's songs were never able to come even close to Rahman's best.
I would hugely disagree. What are these best songs that Amit has not been able to match at least in his Dev.D work?
I personally have regarded AR Rahman as overrated, especially in his Bollywood scores. While some of his early scores for Roja, Thiruda Thiruda, Bombay (in parts) were fantastic and he has had sporadic lovely scores for Dil Se and some Tamil films like Duet, Indira and Iruvar, I find a good deal of his output (which I have heard, I may have missed some great efforts) very minimalist and ad jingle like. Most egregious is the title an ignorant foreign media has conferred upon him as Mozart of Madras. They either don't know Indian film music or don't understand what Mozart stood for because nothing could be further from the truth. No one deserves that title better than Ilaiyaraaja, a legend in front of whose musical legacy Rahman is a dwarf. Ilaiyaraaja has incorporated some of the most sophisticated musical ideas, drawing inspiration from both Indian and Western classical music and folk songs, in songs that have appealed to the masses. In fact Ilaiyaraaja has been invited to compose actual symphonies, and even after several decades he is still producing film scores where each song has more musical ideas than what Rahman gives for an entire soundtrack. Rahman's main strength IMO is instrumentation and arrangement, but in terms of raw ideas he is IMO ordinary. Also I dislike how he ignores the talents of singers like Sukhvinder, Hariharan and others that do playback for him by his abuse of overdubs, which make it sound like the singer is not capable of rendering the song as is.

Last edited by ravenus; 12-23-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:52 AM   #6
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@Divyansh: Sorry if I sound like I'm just ranting, I can be like that sometimes. But check out this Ilaiyaraaja song from the 80's where the male and female singer are simultaneously singing in 2 different keys, very difficult to compose such a song without it feeling jarring or gimmicky:
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:02 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenus View Post
I personally have regarded AR Rahman as overrated, especially in his Bollywood scores. While some of his early scores for Roja, Thiruda Thiruda, Bombay (in parts) were fantastic and he has had sporadic lovely scores for Dil Se and some Tamil films like Duet, Indira and Iruvar, I find a good deal of his output (which I have heard, I may have missed some great efforts) very minimalist and ad jingle like. Most egregious is the title an ignorant foreign media has conferred upon him as Mozart of Madras. They either don't know Indian film music or don't understand what Mozart stood for because nothing could be further from the truth. No one deserves that title better than Ilaiyaraaja, a legend in front of whose musical legacy Rahman is a dwarf. Ilaiyaraaja has incorporated some of the most sophisticated musical ideas, drawing inspiration from both Indian and Western classical music and folk songs, in songs that have appealed to the masses. In fact Ilaiyaraaja has been invited to compose actual symphonies, and even after several decades he is still producing film scores where each song has more musical ideas than what Rahman gives for an entire soundtrack. Rahman's main strength IMO is instrumentation and arrangement, but in terms of raw ideas he is IMO ordinary.
My thoughts as well. Rahman is way more celebrated and decorated than what he deserves IMO. During my college days a friend of mine gave me a collection of Ilaiyaraaja's songs and after listening to the collection I realised what a great talent he is. I couldn't make out anything from the lyrics, but to appreciate good music, it is not necessary.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:17 AM   #8
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Quote:
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My thoughts as well. Rahman is way more celebrated and decorated than what he deserves IMO. During my college days a friend of mine gave me a collection of Ilaiyaraaja's songs and after listening to the collection I realised what a great talent he is. I couldn't make out anything from the lyrics, but to appreciate good music, it is not necessary.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:22 AM   #9
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I would hugely disagree. What are these best songs that Amit has not been able to match at least in his Dev.D work?
I personally have regarded AR Rahman as overrated, especially in his Bollywood scores. While some of his early scores for Roja, Thiruda Thiruda, Bombay (in parts) were fantastic and he has had sporadic lovely scores for Dil Se and some Tamil films like Duet, Indira and Iruvar, I find a good deal of his output (which I have heard, I may have missed some great efforts) very minimalist and ad jingle like. Most egregious is the title an ignorant foreign media has conferred upon him as Mozart of Madras. They either don't know Indian film music or don't understand what Mozart stood for because nothing could be further from the truth. No one deserves that title better than Ilaiyaraaja, a legend in front of whose musical legacy Rahman is a dwarf. Ilaiyaraaja has incorporated some of the most sophisticated musical ideas, drawing inspiration from both Indian and Western classical music and folk songs, in songs that have appealed to the masses. In fact Ilaiyaraaja has been invited to compose actual symphonies, and even after several decades he is still producing film scores where each song has more musical ideas than what Rahman gives for an entire soundtrack. Rahman's main strength IMO is instrumentation and arrangement, but in terms of raw ideas he is IMO ordinary. Also I dislike how he ignores the talents of singers like Sukhvinder, Hariharan and others that do playback for him by his abuse of overdubs, which make it sound like the singer is not capable of rendering the song as is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenus View Post
@Divyansh: Sorry if I sound like I'm just ranting, I can be like that sometimes. But check out this Ilaiyaraaja song from the 80's where the male and female singer are simultaneously singing in 2 different keys, very difficult to compose such a song without it feeling jarring or gimmicky:
poo malaye - illayaraja - YouTube

No ,You are not sounding ranting , you are just presenting your opinions the way they should be , I have not heard much of Illaiyaraja's work (Heard only Paa Till Date which was although subtle but very beautifully composed ) I've heard good things about him from my dad as well. But as far as AMIT is concerned (DEV-D Included) he is far from the best Indian music has to offer but that's just my opinion. Rahman although produced a very disappointing or mediocre score for Jab Tak Hai Jaan this year But Saans is a very wonderfully composed track with fantastic arrangements and a very memorable melody , i havn't heard anything like that from AMIT ever and this song is also far from Rahman's best work! Amit's best song IMO till date is Pareshan and other than that i do not find any reason to write home about his music which is very average at best!
Rahman's notable work (By far untouched by composers of our times , IMO are)
Roja
Bombay
Dil se
Taal
Lagaan (BGM Was noteworthy, O Re Chori was a nice fusion of western-Indian classical)
Yuva
Swades
Rang De Basanti
Guru
Jodha Akbar
Yuvvraaj
Delhi - 6
Ravan
and Rockstar recently! (it was out of his usual comfort zone,some great Rock Music and fusions were there ,a very complete(WITH COMPLETE I MEAN OFFERS A LARGE VARIETY, WITH ALMOST ALL TRACKS WELL COMPOSED OR WORTH LISTENING TO) and must-listen soundtrack by Rahman , again i seriously doubt Amit Composing something like this and after all this a unused track Tum Ko had a great melody which Trivedi has not been able to compose till date)

My Ratings for Indian music composers is
1-AR Rahman
2-Vishal and Shekhar
3-Pritam
4-S-E-L
5-Salim and Sulaiman

BTW , Sohail Sen did some great work in Whats Your Rashee and covered mostly all genres in it and composed them with excellence , i like it more than DEV-D and still dont understand why is it celebrated this much.

Last edited by divyansh; 12-25-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:47 AM   #10
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i disagree regarding AMIT TRIVEDI..he is one of the best orginal composers we have around now.

compositions for
Aamir
Devd
Aisha
Udaan
no one killed jessica
ishaqzaade

and some songs like ikatara,trishna,Junoon and his episode of coke studio season(fantastic songs).

Rahman and Ilayaraja are class apart...geniuses .(personally Ilayaraja<Rahman)

Vishal Bharadwaj and piyush mishra are other composers who come with brilliant tunes.

composers like shankar ehsaan loy,vishal shekar,pritam,MM kreem,Devi sri prasad,mani sharma,yuvan shankar raja,mickey J Meyer are some good music directors who provide populist tunes.

Last edited by intacto; 12-23-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenus View Post
@Divyansh: Sorry if I sound like I'm just ranting, I can be like that sometimes. But check out this Ilaiyaraaja song from the 80's where the male and female singer are simultaneously singing in 2 different keys, very difficult to compose such a song without it feeling jarring or gimmicky:
poo malaye - illayaraja - YouTube
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAE1Ysx-VGU - YouTube[/url][/QUOTE]

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Old 12-23-2012, 08:09 PM   #12
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Been listening to some Classics today by Lataji:

1. Solah Baras Ki Bali Umar Ko Salaam - Ek Duuje Ke Liye - Laxmikant Pyarelal
2. Nindiya Se Jaage Bahar - Hero - Laxmikant Pyarelal
3. Do Hanson Ka Joda Bichhad Gayo Re - Ganga Jumna - Naushad
4. Kahin Deep Jale Kahin Dil - Bees Saal Baad - Hemant Kumar
5. Na Dhir Dheem Tana - Pardesi - Anil Biswas
6. Piya Bina Piya Bina - Abhimaan - S. D. Burman
7. Tumhin Mere Mandir - Khandan - Ravi
8. Bahaaron Mein Jeevan - Aakhri Khat - Khayyam
9. Aye Dil-E-Nadaan - Razia Sultan - Khayyam
10. Man Mohana - Seema - Shankar Jaikishan

These songs all showed the strength of Lataji's voice during the 60's, 70's and early 80's. She truly grasped these compositions and took them further.

While Lata did have a hold of her talent, it is definitely the music composers that believed in her voice that composed such inimitable classics. The music arrangements of each of the songs is what the music industry today lacks. They were masters at their art. Laxmikant Pyarelal is an obvious favourite of mine. Their use of percussion instruments is yet to be replaced. Khayyam follows in closely. He had the ability to invent very melodious tunes. In the tracks Aye Dil-E-Nadaan he makes use of Lata's lower vocal octaves and brings the song to amazing heights.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:47 AM   #13
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With regards to Lata Mangeshkar:
My feelings about her are mixed. Of course, it's in no doubt that in her prime which lasted a very long while she was astounding. In her 50's and 60s songs she had a fluidity and grasp of voice that was supreme. It is not without reason that she has been Bollywood's reigning queen of song.
From the 70's and onwards her voice had begun to thicken and lose its hold over the higher register, but she compensated for that with her improved sophistication in the rendering, especially her greater command of language and correct stressing of words, which makes for proper emotional impact in a song.
It was from the late 80's and 90's that her creative descent became precipitous. Her voice sounded jarring and anachronistic, even creepy, when used to mouth songs for heroines less than half her age. It's part of why I have never been able to enjoy the soundtracks for the Barjatya and Yash Chopra films from that period on. It didn't help that she had acquired such sacred cow status that nobody could really criticize or correct these blunders - I've felt palpable chills in company on expressing my opinions of her.
One of the Lata albums that I heard recently and loved was a 1969 album where she sings a bunch of ghazals written by Ghalib and set to tune by Hridaynath Mangeshkar. I put up a review of that album on my blog: LINK
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenus View Post
^Agree with the praise for Trivedi. When I saw Dev.D at the cinema I was astounded by the score, how fresh and exciting it sounded, and how much it tied in with the aesthetic of the film. To me it was the best score for that year (not that I seek out many Bollywood movie scores). Even though Filmfare awards ignored him to reward AR Rahman for another farted out whimper, I'm glad the National Awards committee for that year recognized his genius. When I got the CD I used to hear it several times, which is rare so far as me and soundtrack albums go.
The best thing for me about that score is the sheer variety of genres it traverses, sometimes within a song, without sounding like an ugly mishmash. The 2 versions of Emotional Atyaachaar are fantastic (the second version is one of the few Hindi 'rock' songs I've heard that doesn't sound like complete ass), Duniya is catchy as hell, Nayan Tarse, Saali Khushi, Dhol Yaara and Aankh Micholi are amazing. Payaliya, I normally would not have cared for but he does it with just the right amount of sweetness for it to work. Hell, Bhangrapop-stuff which normally annoys me is also done nicely in songs like Mahi Mainu and Hiknaal. There are some meh, bland numbers but when you've got around 18 songs in an album, not all are bound to work. That fact that so many do is in itself a tremendous achievement. And Trivedi also has an interesting voice, it makes the songs he sings very noticeable and, unlike Rahman's wheezy whiny tenor, in a good way.

Just realized all my praise for Trivedi is based on Dev.D. Haven't heard anything hugely distinctive from him after that, but maybe I have not watched the right movies.
Insightful set of thoughts on Dev D to which I wholeheartedly agree.
I, myself haven't seen many films in the past year, but anything that sounds attractive online that comes my way, I've invested time into it, and almost everything with Amit Trivedi's name attached to it has been worth investing time into, irrespective of what his music does in the film initself. I would also agree that Trivedi lends a fresh sound with himself singing, he gives "Keh Ke Lunga" the right attitude it lyrically presents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by divyansh View Post
guys like Vishal Shekhar and Pritam (surprised me this year with Barfi! and Cocktail was a solid effort too!) are much more consistant.
You do realize that 'alot' of what Pritam has done has been straight lifted from elsewhere.
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:43 AM   #15
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You do realize that 'alot' of what Pritam has done has been straight lifted from elsewhere.
Yes i'm aware , but i'am only referring to his original work , which should not be ignored! Atleast this year he is the only composer who performed consistently well and all of his work is indeed original for the Cocktail (few folk based tunes as well , due credit is given at back of the CD cover) and Barfi! (Accordian sample in song Aashiyaan is used with credit again been given,rest is all original).

His Creativity and his excellent work now cannot and should not be ignored just because of things he did in past.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divyansh View Post
Yes i'm aware , but i'am only referring to his original work , which should not be ignored! Atleast this year he is the only composer who performed consistently well and all of his work is indeed original for the Cocktail (few folk based tunes as well , due credit is given at back of the CD cover) and Barfi! (Accordian sample in song Aashiyaan is used with credit again been given,rest is all original).

His Creativity and his excellent work now cannot and should not be ignored just because of things he did in past.
I am a bit two minds about Pritam, though he has been staying in the clear with his last couple of albums. He is very good with rhythm, but will his songs sustain the long term? I mean he has created a couple of memorable tunes. My favourite of his is Mere Dholna from Bhool Bhulaiyya. I still listen to that track. Even a few from Agent Vinod. He has blatantly lifted a lot of his music and that too from Pakistani music. I have been watching the Coke Studio from India, but its still not a patch on the Pakistani version. I do Listen to Pritam's soundtracks, however very cautiously. The biggest disappointment for me was the track from Race, Pehli Nazar Main, by Atif Aslam. When i heard the Japanese original, i was flabbergasted, The only difference was the language. everything else was exactly the same....
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by mrbrat_Boy View Post
I am a bit two minds about Pritam, though he has been staying in the clear with his last couple of albums. He is very good with rhythm, but will his songs sustain the long term? I mean he has created a couple of memorable tunes. My favourite of his is Mere Dholna from Bhool Bhulaiyya. I still listen to that track. Even a few from Agent Vinod. He has blatantly lifted a lot of his music and that too from Pakistani music. I have been watching the Coke Studio from India, but its still not a patch on the Pakistani version. I do Listen to Pritam's soundtracks, however very cautiously. The biggest disappointment for me was the track from Race, Pehli Nazar Main, by Atif Aslam. When i heard the Japanese original, i was flabbergasted, The only difference was the language. everything else was exactly the same....
Yes,you are right and even i was shocked with Pehli Nazar Mein ,BTW it was a lift from a korean series. The agent vinod track you are talking about sounds just like JLO's (which was also lifted) and the producers have given due credit for that.

But the respect i have or lets say his original work that i admire is

Life in a Metro
Jab We Met
Love Aaj Kal
Tum Mille
New York
Once Upon A Time In Mumbai
Cocktail and
Barfi!

I think all these original albums are enough for me to admire his work
There are many others of which maybe some part of album is copied or have songs which are catchy but forgettable/have a short shelf life,so hav'nt included them.These i guess are there to stay for a long while and i still enjoy listening to Jab We Met.

Last edited by divyansh; 12-25-2012 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:57 PM   #18
DVD_C DVD_C is offline
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This thread seems appropriate for this link: http://moifightclub.wordpress.com/20...-havent-heard/
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:06 PM   #19
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This thread seems appropriate for this link: http://moifightclub.wordpress.com/20...-havent-heard/
Thank you. Some of those tracks are really very good.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:20 PM   #20
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This thread seems appropriate for this link: http://moifightclub.wordpress.com/20...-havent-heard/
A brilliant selection for 2012! Some really haunting tunes. Pakistan's coke studio is amazing, it deserves the blu ray treatment. I have been following since season 1 and it continues to shine!
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