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Old 12-03-2009, 08:45 PM   #1
bighouse bighouse is offline
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Default Do I need a center channel?

I have a KLH 5 channel 500 watt receiver and am currently running only two KLH floorstanding speakers that are rated at 250 watts a piece. I think these sound very good but I want to add a center channel to compliment them. I was also thinking about just getting a full surround package but I live in a small apartment and really don't have any room for surround speakers.

So my question is: would only having a 3.1 setup be worthwhile or should I just wait and save up for a full system. If the 3.1 setup would work, I was looking at the CS10 center channel. Would this compliment the speakers I currently have or would is it a bit overkill.

I'm new to the whole home theater thing and am trying to get started with a very small budget system so forgive me if I come off as very ignorant.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:07 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bighouse View Post
I have a KLH 5 channel 500 watt receiver and am currently running only two KLH floorstanding speakers that are rated at 250 watts a piece. I think these sound very good but I want to add a center channel to compliment them. I was also thinking about just getting a full surround package but I live in a small apartment and really don't have any room for surround speakers.

So my question is: would only having a 3.1 setup be worthwhile or should I just wait and save up for a full system. If the 3.1 setup would work, I was looking at the CS10 center channel. Would this compliment the speakers I currently have or would is it a bit overkill.

I'm new to the whole home theater thing and am trying to get started with a very small budget system so forgive me if I come off as very ignorant.
To answer your question, yes, a center channel will make a difference. Once you enter the world of surround sound, your speakers all have specific jobs and the center is arguably the most important of all your speakers as it carries the vast majority of the movie through dialog.

As far as getting a center now or saving up for the entire package, that is really up to you. However, people on here will ask you what you are saving up for. By that, they mean are you thinking HTIB or are you referring to separates? Most people, myself included, will discourage the HTIB route just because you'll outgrow it so quickly. As soon as you watch a few movies in surround sound, you'll never want to go back to two speakers again.

If I were you, I'd begin by answering the question of what are your future plans as far as the speaker purchase and go from there. If you know that you'd like to have a nice 5.1 or 7.1 system in the future you can think about piecing it together. One last piece of advice is that your front three speakers (often referred to as the sound stage) should ideally match.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:26 PM   #3
MADNOD MADNOD is offline
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i believe it depends on your spacing, if your 2 front speakers are relativelly close to eah other in a way that u don't feel that there is an audio gap between them then a central channel will not make a big difference, getting rear surrounds will have a more impact.

i remember this from my days with the 4.1 system (8 years ago).
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:31 PM   #4
bighouse bighouse is offline
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Well I would be looking to piece it together over time. Nothing too extreme, just something that I could really enjoy my movie experience. A nice 5.1 system in the future would be ideal.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:40 PM   #5
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You can run a phantom center channel.

PROS:

1. Sound quality. With properly setup fronts you can get much better imaging and panning with a phantom center. Most have a center above or below the screen. This causes panning from L-C-R to go from ear level, up/down a couple feet, then back to ear level, very unnatural. With a phantom center the sound stays exactly ear level, so now it it centered around the TV not only horizontally but vertically to, adding realism.

2. Cost. You can sell of your center+amp+wires. For your situation just the 9+wiring.

3. WAF. And may be less distracting when watching a movie. Not to mention less cables so less mess.

CONS:

1. If you have a center channel it doesn't matter where you sit, the sounds come from the center, but with no center things get tricky. If you sit closer to one speaker the sound actually pulls to that side, so the sweetspot is smaller for a phantom center.

2. Some receivers have DRC that automatically kicks in when you drop below 5.1. In some cases it is not deflatable, so using a phantom center would cause a loss in dynamic range.

3. Some have issues with peaks using a phantom center where everything gels together. It is generally with hard to drive receivers being run of rcvrs. With L/R it isn't as much of an issue, because the sound is still localizable, but with a phantom center it can cause the center image to fall apart.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:43 PM   #6
Johnny Vinyl Johnny Vinyl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MADNOD View Post
i believe it depends on your spacing, if your 2 front speakers are relativelly close to eah other in a way that u don't feel that there is an audio gap between them then a central channel will not make a big difference, getting rear surrounds will have a more impact.

i remember this from my days with the 4.1 system (8 years ago).
Spacing has nothing to do with it. It's about a speaker's ability to project a proper sound image whereby you experience the often-used term of "phantom imaging".

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Old 12-03-2009, 09:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John72953 View Post
Spacing has nothing to do with it. It's about a speaker's ability to project a proper sound image whereby you experience the often-used term of "phantom imaging".

John



8 years ago there was no phantom imaging thing. it was just a matrixing . i was mainly taking things from the physical layout perspective.


btw the phantom imaging looks like a feature in my rx-v665 called dialog lift, but that requires a central channel to start with
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Last edited by MADNOD; 12-03-2009 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:12 PM   #8
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Hello OP,

I was in the same position as you and opted for the center channel to go along with my 2.1 system.

My intial problem was that the dialog during movies was very low, adding a center channel would really help this greatly.

An important thing to remember, make sure the center is the same match as your other speakers (drivers, tweeters)...timbre matching is key

Good luck.
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Old 12-04-2009, 12:45 AM   #9
Twitch9 Twitch9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MADNOD View Post


8 years ago there was no phantom imaging thing. it was just a matrixing . i was mainly taking things from the physical layout perspective.


btw the phantom imaging looks like a feature in my rx-v665 called dialog lift, but that requires a central channel to start with
Phantom is different than dialog lift, phantom will simulate a center speaker by using the front left and right speakers, this does not require a center channel speaker where dialog lift is a Yamaha feature, this has do with the presence speakers.

This is from the Yamaha web site

What are Presence speakers?
Presence speakers supplement the sound from the front speakers with extra ambient effects produced by CINEMA DSP. These effects include sounds that Filmmakers intend to locate a little farther back behind the screen in order to create more theater-like ambiance. Place these speakers at the front of the room about 0.5 - 1 m (1 -3 ft) outside the front speakers, facing slightly inwards, and about 1.8 m (6 ft) above the floor.


NOTE: The Presence speakers are also utilized if the receiver has the Dialog Lift feature that adjusts the height of the front and center channel sounds by assigning some of the front and center channel elements to the presence speakers. The larger the parameter, the higher the position of the front and center channel sound.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:59 AM   #10
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Do you need a center channel? No, only if you want to hear the dialog.

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Old 12-04-2009, 03:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIY_HD View Post
Do you need a center channel? No, only if you want to hear the dialog.
YOu mean hear the dialogue better.
I have only two fronts (for now) and hear the dialogue fine.
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:05 AM   #12
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get it lol
154 blu-ray's owned & counting..
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:08 AM   #13
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If you don't want a center channel, you should buy 360 degree omni speakers.

The Duevel Planets omni dispersion speakers from Urban Fidelity are beautiful, exotic, sexy, and affordable. They are $1,400 a pair.

Quote:
The Omni Experience
Nothing does home theater like omni speakers. The goal of home theater is to create a listening environment as large as possible. Movies are meant to be experienced with multiple people so the sonic image needs to be huge. Duevels create the largest image in all of audio, allowing every person in the room to experience the full theatrical effect.

4.1 Home Theater
A four speaker Duevel package creates the most expansive sound experience in the world. And with identical speakers, the surround sound stays equal and even throughout the full 360 degree radius. With speakers of various sizes, you'll hear changes in frequency and location as the sound from the tie fighter or dinosaur moves from your large main speakers to the tiny cubes high up on the back wall and back to the main speakers. Only Duevel's omni speakers keep the sound unified to create the most realistic home theater experience.

Phantom Center Channel
Duevel omni speakers negate the need for a center channel. By projecting a 360 degree field, the Duevels are able to create such a defined and alive center image that an additional center speaker is just not needed. Most receivers are preset for 4.1; hit a switch and you're ready to go!
Another company that makes 360 degree speakers is OHM. They are the pioneers in making omni speakers.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:45 AM   #14
MADNOD MADNOD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
If you don't want a center channel, you should buy 360 degree omni speakers.

The Duevel Planets omni dispersion speakers from Urban Fidelity are beautiful, exotic, sexy, and affordable. They are $1,400 a pair.








Another company that makes 360 degree speakers is OHM. They are the pioneers in making omni speakers.

these speakers can be placed on corners or they need some space away from the side walls?

it's interesting how the spheres are positioned.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:50 AM   #15
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MADNOD View Post
these speakers can be placed on corners or they need some space away from the side walls?

it's interesting how the spheres are positioned.
Yes, you can buy 4 of them and put them in the corners. However, you should always keep ALL SPEAKERS a foot or more away from the walls. The only exception is bi/di-polar surrond speakers that can be installed on the walls.
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Old 12-10-2009, 06:47 AM   #16
bighouse bighouse is offline
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Big Daddy, those speakers a little out of my price range but the do look awesome and would like to read some more information on them because I have never seen speakers like that before.
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Old 12-10-2009, 07:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bighouse View Post
Big Daddy, those speakers a little out of my price range but the do look awesome and would like to read some more information on them because I have never seen speakers like that before.
http://www.urbanfidelity.com/planets/technology.php
Quote:
Technology

The Spheres
Not only do the chrome spheres get everyone talking, but they also function as precision wave guides designed to disperse sound in a perfect 360 degree pattern. This is called "omni directionality." Omni speakers are a rarity in high performance audio, simply because they are much more difficult to design.

Planet designer Markus Duevel is known world-over as one of the few acoustic designers to have mastered omni-directionality. Markus's legendary computer-modeled wave guides used in his $24,995 speakers form the foundation of the Planets. Once you hear omni speakers, there's no going back.

The Drivers
The omni spheres are only the beginning of the Planets' unique technology. The spheres are sized and positioned to perfectly mate with the Planet's specialized drivers.

The Tweeter -- With high efficiency and horn loading, the tweeter combined with the sphere is able to create a sonic image massively larger than any forward-firing tweeter. Typical tweeters suffer from a tiny sound stage and beaming problems. Only the Planets' tweeter bypasses beaming and shares the sound with everyone in the room.

The Woofer -- No flabby bass here. The 5.9" woofer's strengths are extremely fast and tight midrange and lows. Designed to perfectly compliment the tweeter and omni dispersion, the woofer's high efficiency and low distortion provides delineated mid-range frequency and shocking bass for the size.

The Cabinet
The cabinets themselves are also finely tuned devices, designed to perfectly compliment the omni orbs and custom drivers.

The cabinets use a precision double-ported design on the bottom of the speaker. Aiming the double port at the floor instead of to the front or behind the speaker creates a quasi-acoustic lens with an omni pattern. While this is a lot of technical information, the results are simple: powerful bass in a tiny package.

Additionally, cabinet resonances are tamed by the woofer's top-of-cabinet placement. On a typical speaker, the woofer pulsates backwards and forwards, rocking the entire speaker which creates smear and distortion. Many speaker manufacturers try to tame this distortion with exceedingly heavy cabinets. With the Planets' top-placement, the woofer pushes against the floor, reducing distortion and creating a perfect mechanical launch platform. Only a much heavier (and more expensive) speaker can replicate the Planets' amazingly tight and deep bass response.
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Old 12-10-2009, 07:22 AM   #18
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I have heard and seen the Venus and Bella and all i could say is wow
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:56 AM   #19
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I think the question is... Do you want a center channel? Speakers are not a need.
I like my 5.1 setup but even when I just had a 2.0 setup I was happy with that. I still use stereo mode for most movies (unless it's an action movie with a lot going on) and always for music. I'm not familiar with KLH. Are they pretty decent?
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:21 AM   #20
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The pros of having a center will definitely out-weight the cons of not having one, unless there are no funds!!!
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