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Old 11-24-2010, 04:21 PM   #1
Greenmallardfan Greenmallardfan is offline
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Default Question about MotionFlow and TV Refresh Rates (Sony LCDs)

Hi,

I'm looking at a few different Sony LCD models and trying to figure out exactly what the refresh rates are and I'm a little confused.

My understanding and what I've been told is that the native refresh rate of the LCD panels themselves is 60Hz, including the models I was looking at (Nx and Ex models). When I turn on MotionFlow the TV operates at either 120hz or 240hz (I think the Nx are 240hz and the Ex are 120hz) and if you're running a film which is natively 24fps its going to take that and extrapolate the 5 or 10 extra frames needed to fill up the 24th of a second essentially "guessing" what the picture in between the frames would be. However, if I turn MotionFlow off and turn on True24p, the TV is still going to operate at either 120hz or 240hz, but instead of guessing what the picture would be, perform either a 5:5 or a 10:10 pulldown repeating the same frame the appropriate number of times. Where I'm confused is that I read a few articles on CNet I believe that said the native refresh rate of the television needs to be a multiple of 24 (which 60 is not) for 24p to operate properly, but that many TVs claim to have 24p but are doing it incorrectly.

I looked in this forum as well as the LCD forum and could not find any answers to this question in reference to these models.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:32 PM   #2
progers13 progers13 is offline
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The TV's refresh rate is the Hz value. So, for instance, if it is 120 Hz, then it is native 120 Hz (and will always run at 120 Hz). If you have 24p active, the TV will display each frame 5 or 10 times in accordance with the refresh rate as 120 and 240 are both divisible by 24 (where as 60 is not - this is where you get into 3:2 pull downs with 60 Hz TVs).

Motionflow is another animal altogether. Motionflow or frame interpolation is not the same as refresh rate. Motionflow works to smooth out the moving image to make it look smoother than it otherwise would. This is largely used to combat the slower response panels in LCD's. However, the down side is it tends to make the image look processed (a.k.a the "soap opera" effect). Some people love it, others hate it. Really it is a matter of personal taste. In any event, Motionflow can be turned OFF if a person wants, but it does not affect the Hz (or refresh rate). A TV will always refresh at its designed rate regardless of what is going on with Motionflow.

Hope that helps to answer your questions.

Edit: The 24p on a 60 Hz TV uses a 3:2 pulldown method that I eluded to. Because 24p does not divide evenly into 60, I believe the way it works is that one frame will be refreshed 3 times followed by the next frame being refreshed 2 times, then back to 3 again, alternating back and forth. It is not a true 1:1 or 5:5 like you would get with a TV whose Hz is divisible by 24.
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Last edited by progers13; 11-24-2010 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:43 PM   #3
Greenmallardfan Greenmallardfan is offline
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Thanks! That was my understanding before; it wasn't until I was told by a rep that all LCDs operate natively at 60Hz that I became confused. I also read a comment somewhere that essentially said that Sony's LCDs use MotionFlow 240Hz! as a way to make their TVs look like they operate at 240Hz natively when in reality its only when MotionFlow is on that they operate at that and that a true 240Hz set would cost significantly more money.

Hm, looking on Sony's website it does look like they may actually be 60Hz:

Power Requirements (frequency) KDL55NX810: 60Hz for UL,cUL 50/60Hz for other

However further down it says:

Motionflow™ PRO Technology KDL55NX810: 240Hz


Not sure how that works. All the TVs say 60Hz for the frequency.
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmallardfan View Post
Thanks! That was my understanding before; it wasn't until I was told by a rep that all LCDs operate natively at 60Hz that I became confused. I also read a comment somewhere that essentially said that Sony's LCDs use MotionFlow 240Hz! as a way to make their TVs look like they operate at 240Hz natively when in reality its only when MotionFlow is on that they operate at that and that a true 240Hz set would cost significantly more money.

Hm, looking on Sony's website it does look like they may actually be 60Hz:

Power Requirements (frequency) KDL55NX810: 60Hz for UL,cUL 50/60Hz for other

However further down it says:

Motionflow™ PRO Technology KDL55NX810: 240Hz


Not sure how that works. All the TVs say 60Hz for the frequency.
I suppose that is a possibility, although everything I have read prior to this has been to the contrary. Hopefully someone with more knowledge on the matter can offer some insight.
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:41 PM   #5
fairchild fairchild is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmallardfan View Post
Thanks! That was my understanding before; it wasn't until I was told by a rep that all LCDs operate natively at 60Hz that I became confused. I also read a comment somewhere that essentially said that Sony's LCDs use MotionFlow 240Hz! as a way to make their TVs look like they operate at 240Hz natively when in reality its only when MotionFlow is on that they operate at that and that a true 240Hz set would cost significantly more money.

Hm, looking on Sony's website it does look like they may actually be 60Hz:

Power Requirements (frequency) KDL55NX810: 60Hz for UL,cUL 50/60Hz for other

However further down it says:

Motionflow™ PRO Technology KDL55NX810: 240Hz


Not sure how that works. All the TVs say 60Hz for the frequency.
The rep was wrong. If the TV is marketed as a 120hz TV, it's native (true) refresh rate should be 120hz. As the previous poster mentioned, Motion Flow adds frames to try to make the image smoother. Some users like the look (sometimes referred to as the soap opera effect) when they enable MotionFlow, others hate it.

You can check out the AVSforum's for more in depth info on the matter.

One thing to look into if you are interested in getting as smooth of a picture as possible for viewing 24p blu-rays, just because the set is 120hz or 240hz, doesn't mean it's able to perform an even pulldown (5:5 for 120hz or 10:10 for 240hz). Though the newer the models the more chance they do. I know that the 120hz EX500 line for sure does a proper even 5:5 pulldown when watching blu-rays.
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Last edited by fairchild; 11-24-2010 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
The rep was wrong. If the TV is marketed as a 120hz TV, it's native (true) refresh rate should be 120hz. As the previous poster mentioned, Motion Flow adds frames to try to make the image smoother. Some users like the look (sometimes referred to as the soap opera effect) when they enable MotionFlow, others hate it.
The rep was right.

I have a Sony Bravia 120 Hz LCD. Although it is marketed as 120 Hz, if you look up the specs at Sony online, you will not find mentioned anywhere for my model anyway that it has 120 Hz native refresh rate. It doesn't specify any refresh rate at all under technical specifications either. I find that to be rather odd as if Sony is not disclosing the real refresh rate because of the that it doesn't have a true native 120 Hz refresh rate. My Bravia can be hooked up to a PC. When it is hooked up to my PC, my graphics card displays 1920 X 1080 with a refresh rate of 67.5 Hz vertical and 60 Hz horizontal, not 120 Hz!

The only place you find 120 Hz mention is in the section: MotionFlow 120 Hz technology. I asked a Sony rep too about this in product support. And it's true that it is MotionFlow 120Hz technology that produces the Sony Bravia's 120 Hz refresh rate. It doesn't have a native 120 Hz refresh rate. If you double 60 you get 120. If you multiply 24 by 5 you get 120. That's how it works with MotionFlow 120 Hz.

I think Sony was wise doing that. That way, the user has a choice whether to use 120 Hz refresh rate or not. The downside of 120 Hz refresh rate whether it be native or produced by Sony's MotionFlow 120 Hz technology is that it makes 24p movies look like documentaries, aka the soap opera effect. The rep told me that a native 120 hz LCD will do the same thing. Movies will look like soap operas. So, if you have a native 120 Hz refresh rate LCD, there would be no way to turn it off. People would complain about it too. Many people abhor the soap opera effect they get when MotionFlow is set to Standard or High. The same thing would happen to a native 120 Hz refresh TV too.

The long and the short of it is this. If you have a Sony Bravia, at least for the model I have, and you turn off MotionFlow, you are getting a 60 Hz refresh rate. If you want true 24p without judder, MotionFlow must be engaged whether you like the soap opera effect or not. Otherwise, turn MotionFlow off and live with the judder from using 2:3 pulldown with 24p movies.

Edit: For further reading and reference see this article.

Last edited by Yeha-Noha; 11-30-2010 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:45 AM   #7
fairchild fairchild is offline
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Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz View Post
The rep was right. [/URL].
We can agree to disagree I suppose. It depends what set you are referring to (not entirely 100% that all their 120hz sets are native 120hz, but it would make sense they all are).

Take a look at this thread (it's about the EX500 line): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1227927

It was verified by different users that you could have a proper even 5:5 judder free 24p with motionflow off.

As for receiving a 120hz signal from your computer graphics card to the TV, you would need a compatible graphics card that can do this ( and you would usually need to run dual dvi ports etc)

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/272497-33-120hz-hdmi

Also, just because the particular graphics card does or doesn't list a refresh rate doesn't mean much. Both my EX400 and my S2 plasma have a 24hz mode out from my graphics card. But that doesn't mean the graphics card is actually putting out a signal at 24hz (since neither of these sets have any other refresh rate than 60hz)

Here is a link which shows compatible TV's and just the Nvidia graphics cards that support 120hz. (note this seems to only be used for 3d purposes)

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-visi...uirements.html

Anyways, gl etc on your quest for a set that can do an even pulldown. The easiest way to test this is to use a calibration disc or some test disc. For instance the free downloable AVS HD 709 disc has a 24p and a 30i test pattern. Basically it has a scrolling bar going accross the screen. First look at the 30i test pattern and see how smooth it is. This is because all current US tv's can handle 60hz perfectly. Then, look at the 24p pattern. It will judder and stutter as it goes accross the pattern. This happens when the TV is using a 3:2 pulldown. Some sets will have more judder than others. You can then test with motionflow on or off. As others have tested, you should same the level of fluidity in the test pattern.
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Last edited by fairchild; 11-30-2010 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:51 PM   #8
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
We can agree to disagree I suppose. It depends what set you are referring to (not entirely 100% that all their 120hz sets are native 120hz, but it would make sense they all are).

Take a look at this thread (it's about the EX500 line): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1227927

It was verified by different users that you could have a proper even 5:5 judder free 24p with motionflow off.

As for receiving a 120hz signal from your computer graphics card to the TV, you would need a compatible graphics card that can do this ( and you would usually need to run dual dvi ports etc)

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/272497-33-120hz-hdmi

Also, just because the particular graphics card does or doesn't list a refresh rate doesn't mean much. Both my EX400 and my S2 plasma have a 24hz mode out from my graphics card. But that doesn't mean the graphics card is actually putting out a signal at 24hz (since neither of these sets have any other refresh rate than 60hz)

Here is a link which shows compatible TV's and just the Nvidia graphics cards that support 120hz. (note this seems to only be used for 3d purposes)

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-visi...uirements.html

Anyways, gl etc on your quest for a set that can do an even pulldown. The easiest way to test this is to use a calibration disc or some test disc. For instance the free downloable AVS HD 709 disc has a 24p and a 30i test pattern. Basically it has a scrolling bar going accross the screen. First look at the 30i test pattern and see how smooth it is. This is because all current US tv's can handle 60hz perfectly. Then, look at the 24p pattern. It will judder and stutter as it goes accross the pattern. This happens when the TV is using a 3:2 pulldown. Some sets will have more judder than others. You can then test with motionflow on or off. As others have tested, you should same the level of fluidity in the test pattern.
OK. Whether mine is or isn't native 120 Hz is really academic.

It does seem that your KDL-46EX500 Bravia is the successor to my old KDL-52V5100. It may well indeed have a native 120 Hz refresh rate since it is a new model. I don't have that model, and so I didn't read through those 100+ pages at AVS. But I take your word for it

The KDL-52V5100 model that came out in 2009 only cost $1200. It was their entry level, least expensive, so called 120 Hz Bravia LCD TV. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a native 120 Hz refresh rate. If it does, then fine. If it doesn't, I am not loosing any sleep over it. It's a non-issue as far as I am concerned because MotionFlow does the job for me quite well for the money I paid for it. If I had paid $3600, then it would be a different story.

I can certainly tell the difference though when playing 24p blu-ray movies with MotionFlow off. There is far more judder. If I turn MotionFlow on, then it's gone. I got used to the soap opera effect too. Believe me! That was hard getting used to because I came from a 40" plasma HDTV. But the plasma had more judder and there was nothing one could do about it. In 2001: A Space Odyssey, for instance, in the scenes where various spacecraft slowly pan across the screen, the plasma displayed those scenes with a lot of jerky motion. In another scene, where the space station slowly turns, again it was there. There are many other movies that had it too, like Iron Man. It was annoying. My Sony Bravia, with MotionFlow on, shows no judder or jerkiness. However, it does if I turn it off. So I leave it on all the time no matter what the source is. In short, for the money I paid, I really don't care if it's 60 Hz, fake 120 Hz, or native 120 Hz. It works fine for me with MotionFlow on. BTW, if MotionFlow is on, CineMotion must be off. If it is on, then it causes judder.

Last edited by Yeha-Noha; 11-30-2010 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:10 PM   #9
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However just because a tv has a refresh of 120hz, doesn't mean it can accept a signal at 120hz. It will double up the frames in the tv though so the results aren't affected.
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Old 12-01-2010, 02:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz View Post
I think Sony was wise doing that. That way, the user has a choice whether to use 120 Hz refresh rate or not. The downside of 120 Hz refresh rate whether it be native or produced by Sony's MotionFlow 120 Hz technology is that it makes 24p movies look like documentaries, aka the soap opera effect. The rep told me that a native 120 hz LCD will do the same thing. Movies will look like soap operas. So, if you have a native 120 Hz refresh rate LCD, there would be no way to turn it off. People would complain about it too. Many people abhor the soap opera effect they get when MotionFlow is set to Standard or High. The same thing would happen to a native 120 Hz refresh TV too.
No.

A native 120Hz panel will properly employ a 5:5 pulldown for 24p content as long as you have any motion interpolation turned off.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/display-the...explained.html
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:20 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by secondhand1 View Post
No.

A native 120Hz panel will properly employ a 5:5 pulldown for 24p content as long as you have any motion interpolation turned off.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/display-the...explained.html
That is correct. And just so it is clear to others if no interpolation (motionflow) is applied it will look as it should and not a documentary. The refresh rate does not cause this.
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz View Post
OK. Whether mine is or isn't native 120 Hz is really academic.

It does seem that your KDL-46EX500 Bravia is the successor to my old KDL-52V5100. It may well indeed have a native 120 Hz refresh rate since it is a new model. I don't have that model, and so I didn't read through those 100+ pages at AVS. But I take your word for it

The KDL-52V5100 model that came out in 2009 only cost $1200. It was their entry level, least expensive, so called 120 Hz Bravia LCD TV. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a native 120 Hz refresh rate. If it does, then fine. If it doesn't, I am not loosing any sleep over it. It's a non-issue as far as I am concerned because MotionFlow does the job for me quite well for the money I paid for it. If I had paid $3600, then it would be a different story.

I can certainly tell the difference though when playing 24p blu-ray movies with MotionFlow off. There is far more judder. If I turn MotionFlow on, then it's gone. I got used to the soap opera effect too. Believe me! That was hard getting used to because I came from a 40" plasma HDTV. But the plasma had more judder and there was nothing one could do about it. In 2001: A Space Odyssey, for instance, in the scenes where various spacecraft slowly pan across the screen, the plasma displayed those scenes with a lot of jerky motion. In another scene, where the space station slowly turns, again it was there. There are many other movies that had it too, like Iron Man. It was annoying. My Sony Bravia, with MotionFlow on, shows no judder or jerkiness. However, it does if I turn it off. So I leave it on all the time no matter what the source is. In short, for the money I paid, I really don't care if it's 60 Hz, fake 120 Hz, or native 120 Hz. It works fine for me with MotionFlow on. BTW, if MotionFlow is on, CineMotion must be off. If it is on, then it causes judder.


rwojtalewicz,

The Sony EX500 series is the successor to the V5100 series. You have the 52V5100 and I have the 46inch version. I agree with everything you said however you said if Motionflow is on then Cinemotion must be off or it causes judder. I have both my motionflow( set to standard) and my Cinemotion( set to auto 1) on and I have experienced no judder while watching Blu ray movies or any program HD material on Directv. I would think I would have noticed any judder being I did own a 60hz Hdtv so I know what that looks like but again I have not seen any of this on my tv.

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Old 12-02-2010, 02:16 PM   #13
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Just to let some people know....Called Sony about this 120hz native refresh rate thing for the V5100 series and according to the Sony rep the refresh rate IS native 120hz. Like rwojtalewicz said though it doesnt really matter because the tv does its job for me and does it very good. I only called Sony because the topic made me curious.
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Old 12-02-2010, 08:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post
Just to let some people know....Called Sony about this 120hz native refresh rate thing for the V5100 series and according to the Sony rep the refresh rate IS native 120hz. Like rwojtalewicz said though it doesnt really matter because the tv does its job for me and does it very good. I only called Sony because the topic made me curious.
Yeah, that's why I originally said the rep that told another poster that it wasn't it's native refresh rate and you had to enable motionflow was wrong.

Different reps will tell you different things, and some of the time they are wrong.
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Old 12-02-2010, 09:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
Yeah, that's why I originally said the rep that told another poster that it wasn't it's native refresh rate and you had to enable motionflow was wrong.

Different reps will tell you different things, and some of the time they are wrong.
Well that may be the case I dont really know and could care less really. As long as my tv does what its supposed to do which is to make Blu's look awsome as well as Directv HD material look good then I am a happy camper. But put motionflow to high and wow!!! Talk about 3D!!! lol
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:32 PM   #16
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the issue you guys are dancing around is input and output refresh rate.

HDTVs are marketed with their output refresh rate, but all of them that I know of only accepted a maximum 60hz inputer signal. They probably do this to save money. TVs are marketed and meant for watching televised programming and movies, which under current standards, never exceed 60hz. So they can save money by not including hardware that accepts higher refresh rates. There's no need for it in the TV world.

this is why when you connect a computer, it only allows resolutions with a maximum of 60hz, rather than 120hz. but, your panel is outputting/refreshing at 72/120/240hz etc. to combat judder and to also give more precipitable detail, since you see each frame more times per second, your brain can process it more.

Its only been in the last couple of years that they started making even PC LCD monitors available to consumers that allow input refresh rates higher than 60hz. Which is interesting, because CRTs with high input refresh rates were available for a long time.
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Old 12-25-2010, 05:04 AM   #17
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Motionflow also tends to lag the image for some reason on some older movies.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:59 AM   #18
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Does anyone have the Sony KDL-50EX645? I'm thinking about getting it.

It advertises all this MotionFlow crap. If I leave Motionflow and Cinemotion off, will this TV play the Blu-ray normally as it is meant to be seen?
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