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Old 01-19-2011, 03:05 AM   #41
volcomsocal volcomsocal is online now
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Ok, so I'm way off basis then? I mean, I'm no expert, but I'm not an idiot either. I know what I hear, and no one can tell me other wise. If it's so hard to get this data and objectively make a correct statement about the audio, then why can't you guys give a simple yes/no/this is how it is answer? Usually the simplest answer is the correct one. I'd say that I'm using a pretty well controlled "experiment" here on my own.

I guess it's more fun for some people to just play devil's advocate.

I'm done with this topic.
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:14 AM   #42
BIslander BIslander is offline
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Originally Posted by volcomsocal View Post
I'm done with this topic.
That's good. You might want to spend some time learning how this stuff actually works since you clearly were not interested in my attempts to explain it.

btw, no one disputed your preference for one season over another, just your conclusion that a codec is responsible for the difference.

Last edited by BIslander; 01-19-2011 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:17 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by volcomsocal View Post
Ok, so I'm way off basis then? I mean, I'm no expert, but I'm not an idiot either. I know what I hear, and no one can tell me other wise. If it's so hard to get this data and objectively make a correct statement about the audio, then why can't you guys give a simple yes/no/this is how it is answer? Usually the simplest answer is the correct one. I'd say that I'm using a pretty well controlled "experiment" here on my own.

I guess it's more fun for some people to just play devil's advocate.

I'm done with this topic.
Nobody is accusing you of being an idiot. You simply do not understand how HD Audio works and are comparing apples to oranges and making erroneous conclusions. I suggest that you spend half an hour or so and read the following thread. You may understand HD Audio codecs better.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theor...io-codecs.html
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:26 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by KevinBlu-Ray View Post
Ok so lately I've been buying a lot of Blu-Rays with a Dolby TrueHD track and have noticed, after switching over to the original SD 5.1 audio track, they sound very similar. In fact, they sound the same.

Can anybody help me clarify what the difference is? Is there even a difference at all? I have a 5.1 Surround System hooked up and I have went back and forth to the two track options and heard nothing different. PCM and DTS-HD MA for instance, you can hear a major difference.

Is this just an easy lazy way out of calling it a Hi-Def track, when it's not? Someone mentioned earlier when I mentioned this (on Facebook), that this track works best on a 2 speaker system and it has something to do with the seperation of dialogue and action/bass?

My only fair assumption or conclusion out of this "Hi-Def" track is, that the dialogue "or" the track in general, is more crisp, clear and cleaner than the original SD 5.1 audio track. If you compare a Dolby Digital track to a DTS-HD MA track, it sounds very outdated. The dialogue seems washed out and really old fashioned. BUT, a big BUT, the bass/action driven part of the track is NOT uncompressed from the SD audio?

Is this correct?
What kind of sound system do you have? If you don't have a lossless receiver, you're just listening to the core audio, which is lossy.

Also, I have noticed that because of dialnorm differences, some movies need to be cranked a little more than others to sound as loud.

As far as lossy vs lossless, how could you even think it's worthless to hear all the information? Lossy throws away info to save space / lossless is exactly the same information the sound engineer heard when mixing the movie.

If you do have your blu-ray player hooked to your lossless receiver with an HDMI cable, I don't understand why you would not want to select the lossless audio.

The facebook 2ch. theory is baloney!

By the way, even though they're supposedly all the same, I do generally think most TrueHD soundtracks sound weaker than most LPCM / DTS-MA soundtracks, but that's probably the dialnorm.

EDIT: The "Bass/Action Driven part of the track" is by far the MOST compressed.
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Last edited by frogmort; 01-19-2011 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:30 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by frogmort View Post
What kind of sound system do you have? If you don't have a lossless receiver, you're just listening to the core audio, which is lossy.

Also, I have noticed that because of dialnorm differences, some movies need to be cranked a little more than others to sound as loud.

As far as lossy vs lossless, how could you even think it's worthless to hear all the information? Lossy throws away info to save space / lossless is exactly the same information the sound engineer heard when mixing the movie.

If you do have your blu-ray player hooked to your lossless receiver with an HDMI cable, I don't understand why you would not want to select the lossless audio.

The facebook 2ch. theory is baloney!

By the way, even though they're supposedly all the same, I do generally think most TrueHD soundtracks sound weaker than most LPCM / DTS-MA soundtracks, but that's probably the dialnorm.
Not all "lossy" receivers can't handle HD. Mine can accept LPCM input but not DTS HD/DTS HDMA/True HD, so I use my PS3 to output LPCM to it. It's a cheap HTiB, but sounds good for what it is. In my case, I'm still getting lossless sound.

Of course, you have to be using only HDMI cables to hear the difference too. And like you said, dialnorm is definitely an issue when it comes to "hearing" the difference. The Matrix trilogy includes the quietest action films I own, but they still sound awesome once they're turned up.
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:51 AM   #46
volcomsocal volcomsocal is online now
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
That's good. You might want to spend some time learning how this stuff actually works since you clearly were not interested in my attempts to explain it.

btw, no one disputed your preference for one season over another, just your conclusion that a codec is responsible for the difference.
I don't need to learn every detail of audio codecs(oops, mixes... sorry) to voice my opinion on the topic that was started in this thread, and the ideas and opinions I conveyed. I may not have used the right terminology to describe it, but I was still clearly getting my point across on the subject as a whole.

fine, i understand that's it's technically not a codec that is responsible for the sound difference. That's not my point. My point is one (DTS-HD) sounds better than another (LPCM). I don't care how it got to my ears, but I could tell the difference and that's all that really matters, right? You're arguing the technicalities of it when I'm just trying to get to the point of it all. Why would these 3 different (LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) audio mixes (right?) exist if they're all the same? Sounds like it would be a big waste of time to me. Now unless you've watched what I've watched, you can't shoot down what I'm saying. Whether it was LOST or The Dark Knight, I've gone through both and have heard the differences in MIXES available. It's not close. I'm out.
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Old 01-19-2011, 05:10 AM   #47
BIslander BIslander is offline
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Originally Posted by volcomsocal View Post
I'm out.
Really? Didn't you say that before?

volcomsocal, I have no idea why you decided to veer off the road like this. Your posts show a lack of understanding about audio procesing, which is fine. But, you don't seem to have an interest in learning about the subject and then insist that you are qualified to weigh in anyway, which seems rather disrespectful to the others who come here looking for meaningful information.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:28 PM   #48
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Let me offer a reason why it may be possible that the AQ in Lost may have improved over the years (I have no dog in this hunt since I have not seen any of the Lost post-season releases).

Is it not possible that when the producers, and ABC, realized that Lost was going to be the Holy Grail of TV shows, and that the post-season releases of DVDs & Blus were gold mines, that they upped their game by improving the original sound mixes and other aspects of the show's production values? If I had been one of them, I sure would have.

Anyway, I agree that there is no difference in AQ between any of the lossless formats, so if there truly is an audible difference, the reason lies elsewhere. I am a little surprised that both of the two lossless CODECs (TrueHD or DTS-HD MA) are still around since they provide identical end results. It seems like one will eventually fade away.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by volcomsocal View Post
Why would these 3 different (LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) audio mixes (right?) exist if they're all the same? Sounds like it would be a big waste of time to me.
Why do .wav and .aiff formats exist if the both sound the same? Because the difference lies elsewhere than the sound, yet they are real. Same for PCM, HDMA, and TrueHD.
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:01 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by sptrout View Post
Let me offer a reason why it may be possible that the AQ in Lost may have improved over the years (I have no dog in this hunt since I have not seen any of the Lost post-season releases).

Is it not possible that when the producers, and ABC, realized that Lost was going to be the Holy Grail of TV shows, and that the post-season releases of DVDs & Blus were gold mines, that they upped their game by improving the original sound mixes and other aspects of the show's production values? If I had been one of them, I sure would have.

Anyway, I agree that there is no difference in AQ between any of the lossless formats, so if there truly is an audible difference, the reason lies elsewhere. I am a little surprised that both of the two lossless CODECs (TrueHD or DTS-HD MA) are still around since they provide identical end results. It seems like one will eventually fade away.

Seems most of the blu-rays I have purchased lately are using DTS-HD. I have noticed with some older WB titles when they were using Dolby TrueHD that I had to crank the volume up a bit. DTS-HD that is not the case. DTS-HD seems to have more bass. I'm finding the studios are favoring DTS-HD more and more.
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:48 PM   #51
BIslander BIslander is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
Seems most of the blu-rays I have purchased lately are using DTS-HD. I have noticed with some older WB titles when they were using Dolby TrueHD that I had to crank the volume up a bit. DTS-HD that is not the case. DTS-HD seems to have more bass. I'm finding the studios are favoring DTS-HD more and more.
DTS-HD Master Audio has clearly become the codec of choice for most studios. That has happened for a variety of reasons unrelated to audio quality. Most Dolby encodes include dialnorm offsets which reduce the overall playback volume. That explains why you need to increase the volume a bit with TrueHD. But, the bass is no different when the same soundtrack is encoded using TrueHD or dts-MA or simply placed on the disc as PCM. TrueHD and dts-MA are just data compression codecs used to save space. They don't alter the soundtrack in any way. Of course, if you play one movie that has TrueHD and another that has dts-MA, then you are comparing the movies, not the codecs.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:25 PM   #52
ZoetMB ZoetMB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volcomsocal View Post
I don't need to learn every detail of audio codecs(oops, mixes... sorry)

Why would these 3 different (LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) audio mixes (right?) exist if they're all the same? Sounds like it would be a big waste of time to me.
No, you were right the first time. They're Codecs and/or encoding formats, not mixes. And the reason why both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA both exist (in addition to Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Digital AC3 5.1 and Dolby Digital 4.0, 2.0 and 2.0) is because they are competitive formats from two different companies. Dolby True HD and DTS-HD MA are optional formats for Blu-ray, even though most releases have at least one of those.

Only LPCM, Dolby Digital and DTS are mandatory.

In a sampling I took of 77 "interesting" releases (certainly not a scientific sample), this was the breakdown by audio format (some titles had more than one):
Dolby True HD 7.1: 3%
Dolby True HD 5.1: 34%
DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 13%
DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 47%
LPCM: 8%
Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 0%
Dolby Digital AC3 5.1 27%
Dolby Digital 4.0 3%
Dolby Digital 2.0 4%
Dolby Digital 1.0 6%

In film-based theatrical releases, there are four formats on most soundtracks: Dolby SR optical, Dolby Digital 5.1 (sometimes with EX), DTS (sometimes with ES) and Sony SDDS. You could say that's a waste of time also, but SR is there to provide compatibility with analog sound systems and because all three companies, Dolby, DTS and Sony, have entries in the digital sound marketplace, although Sony no longer makes playback systems for theatres and their SDDS system will slowly fade away as parts become no longer available. But for now, almost every mainstream theatrical release on film has all four soundtracks: it's called the "quad" format.

And you know, Blu-ray also supports three different video formats: MPEG-4 AVC (H.264), VC-1, which is a SMPTE standard and originally developed by Microsoft, and MPEG-2, which was the DVD encoding format. All three formats are mandatory for players.

Generally, all multichannel audio is made from the same mix, except sometimes when they go to more than 5.1 channels. So the studio prepares an unencoded, uncompressed 5.1 mix and THEN it goes through the encoding process for each format. It's sort of like on my Mac, I have a file and if I want to compress it, I can use ZIP or I can use Stuff-It. But they both start with the same file. But the difference is that some of the audio formats are lossy formats.

Last edited by ZoetMB; 01-22-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:58 AM   #53
Matryx Matryx is offline
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Originally Posted by volcomsocal View Post
There is a HUGE difference in audio quality between DD 5.1/DTS 5.1 and Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD MA/PCM. It's simple math really. One's lossy, the other's lossless. Simply, the hi-def audio (lossless) has more information being passed along (higher bitrate) than non hi-def audio (lossy at a lower bitrate).
It's really funny you said that then go denying what everyone is saying and then go telling everyone that you don't care about all the technical details because YOUR hearing is what matters. Even if Kevin didn't hear any difference between the two tracks with his own ears. Only yours matter and is right...
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:45 PM   #54
bmcelvan bmcelvan is offline
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Hi all,
I have just read the entire post and you are very good at explaining things, thank you. I will be buying a home theatre in the next couple of weeks and will have questions if any of you are still monitoring this post.

But for now, volcomsocal, you're an idiot! Everyone on here has been friendly and trying to explain how this works, and have done so quite well I think. Please don't post anything more as it's just a waste of time getting through it!
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