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Old 04-18-2011, 04:19 AM   #1
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Default A Guide to Bipolar, Dipolar, & Direct-Radiating Monopole Surround Speakers (PART II)

Please read http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/66...rs-part-i.html.


Why are Bipole/Dipole Speakers Preferred in a Small Home Theater Room?

The most important effect of Monopole speakers is localization and imaging. This may be a desirable feature for the front speakers, but the localization of the surround channel sound in the listener's head can be very distracting. They may work if the listener is seated exactly on the center line between two identical surround speakers. Direct-radiating surround speakers are not very desirable if you are sitting off-center and close to one surround speaker.

As THX has pointed out, commercial movie theaters use quite a large number of speakers for each surround channel. Even with discrete surround information, an array of speakers like this do not create a distinct direct sound. Moreover, although these speakers are direct-radiating monopole speakers, the fact that they are placed very high combined with the large size of the room and their long distance from the audience makes it possible for the sound to become more diffuse than a similar array of speakers would create in a small home theater. Because monopole speakers radiate sound in only one direction, anyone sitting closer to one monopole surround speaker than another would only hear the closest speaker. The effect become too “in your face” and very distracting from the movie.

A Bipole or Dipole surround speaker, however, radiates sound to the front and back of the room and creates more of a diffuse sound. The viewer hears the surround effects from many different directions and cannot pinpoint their source. In addition, the more ambient atmosphere created by bipole or dipole speakers have the advantage of not calling attention to the speakers, even if a viewer is sitting closer to one side. This allows the individual to pay more attention to the movie.

When Should We Use Bipole and When Should We Use Dipole Surround Speakers?

Where you sit in your home-theater room determines to a great extend where you will place your speakers and what type of surround speaker you should use. The other factor that may determine the type of surround speaker you should use is your taste.

Dipole Speakers:
Dipole speakers[/B] have a very diffuse surround effect and turn everything into a spacious environment, even if that was not originally intended by the sound engineers. The small room effect cannot be effectively simulated with dipole speaker, because they scatter so much sound around they always sound spacious.




Use Dipole surround speakers under these conditions:
  1. When you want to create a more diffuse and spacious surround environment, in which you can not easily pinpoint the surround information happening around you.
  2. If you can install them on the walls exactly on the same line as the listening area as in the following diagram:






    Source: Polk Audio

Dipole surround speakers radiate sound to the front and to the rear of the room and create a null area exactly in their middle area. You must sit in the null area (along the 90-degree axis of the dipole speakers) to receive maximum benefit from the diffuse nature of bipoles; enveloping you in totally indirect sound. If the speakers are placed outside of the listening area (to the rear or to the front of the listening area), the effect is significantly degraded.

Bipole Speakers:
With Bipolar surround speakers you have the best of both worlds, without some of their disadvantages. Bipole speakers can have the direct (localized) effect and intimate environment of the direct-radiating monopole speakers and at the same time, the spaciousness, wide open, and enveloping environment of the Dipole speakers. They are not as “in your face” as direct speakers and at the same time they do not create as much spaciousness as dipole speakers. They also do not have the bass roll off of Dipole speaker and have the advantage of more placement flexibility. In a 5.1 setup, Bipole speakers can work both on side walls or rear wall. Ideally, in a 5.1 setup, they should be placed on the side walls slightly behind the listener and a couple of feet higher than the listener’s head.






Source: Polk Audio


Because the Bipole drivers work in-phase, the result is a greater sound output (almost like a 360 degrees soundfield) than with out-of-phase dipole configuration. That can be a good thing if you want to place the Bipole speakers anywhere outside of the listening area on the side walls or behind your listening position. The Bipole setting also adds some channel separation to your mix and can create more localized sound scape. Some people may prefer this localization when they are used with discrete surround channels.


What About Quadpolar and Tripolar Surround Speakers?

The Quadpolar and Tripolar surround speakers marketed by some manufacturers are essentially variations on the Bipolar speaker arrangement. Although they have drivers emitting sound in multiple directions, these drivers are connected in phase.


How High Should the Surround Speakers Be Installed?

The side surround and rear surround speakers should normally all be installed at the same height and about 2 to 3 feet above ear levels when you are sitting down. They should not be installed too far above the ear level. Otherwise, coherence of the front to the surround field is lost. Unfortunately, in many cases, people have to place the surround speakers too high because of space limitations in their rooms.


Do Direct-Radiating Monopole Surround Speakers Have a Place in Home Theaters?

You should use monopole surround speakers under the following conditions:
  1. If the surround speakers have to be installed in the rear top corner of the room due to room limitations. In such a situation, the Monopole surround speakers may work better as the drivers of bipole and dipole speakers will be too close to the side walls and shoot directly into the walls.




  2. If the rear or side walls are at least ten feet or more away from the listening area, Monopole speakers can be used. If possible, the Monopole speakers should be directed toward the front of the room and not toward the listening area so that they can create a more diffuse effect.




    If your room is too small and you are forced to install two Monopole surround speakers very close to the listening area, make sure they are not pointed toward your ears. Use the following diagram as a guide:




  3. The most ideal situation for monopole surround speakers requires a very large room with multiple surround speakers on the side walls and on the rear wall. The surround speakers should specifically be placed apart at certain distances to de-emphasize the "directness" of the speakers and they should be as far away as possible from the listening area. They should not be directed toward listening position (similar to the way multiple speakers are placed along the walls in commercial movie theaters).




    It is true. I have lost my mind.


What If My Room Has an Unusual Shape and I Do Not Know Which Type of Surround Speakers are the Best?

If you are in doubt, buy Bipole surround speakers. They offer the most flexible placement and have some of the advantages of Dipole and some of the advantage of Monopole surround speakers without some of their compromises.


Can We Mix different Types of Surround Speakers in a 7.1 Setup?




Excellent






Excellent






Very Good To Excellent Depending on your Taste for Spaciousness of Dipoles






Good, But Only If the Room is Very Large






Corner Placement May Work Better With Monopole Speakers, But Should be Avoided If Possible






Excellent If the Room is Large and You are Not Afraid of Getting Kicked Out By Your Other Half






Very Good






Strong Possibility of Phase Cancellation and Should Be Avoided




Sound Engineers Use Monopole Surround Speakers. Why Should We Use Bipole/dipole Surround Speakers in Our Home Theaters?

Direct radiating monopole speakers produce a very localized sound (i.e., you know where it is coming from) as the sound waves are emitted only from one direction (from the front of the speakers). In contrast, Bipolar/Dipolar speakers have two sets of drivers, usually one in the font, and one in the back of the speakers. The two drivers are either in phase with one another (Bipole) or out-of-pahse with one another (Dipole). The sound is coming out of two directions and also reflected against the walls, making a less localized and more of a diffuse sound. A pair of Bipole or Dipole speakers can do the job of multiple direct-rating monopole speakers found in commercial movie theaters.

This is a quote from Sir Terrence, an Insider at Blu-ray.com and an audio engineer working at Disney:
Quote:
I don't think the studio's mix with any assumption on playback speakers. The guidlines for re-mixing or re-purposing soundtracks for DVD release specifies that monopole speakers be used. But I think that is largely because most control rooms for mixing are pretty dead acoustically and dipoles or any reflecting speaker will not sound very good under those conditions.
How About Timbre Matching Between the Surround and Front Speakers?

Timbre matching for the front three speakers may be important. Some people even dispute that and consider timbre matching a bit overrated. There are far too many people who use a different brand of center speaker and are very happy with the results.

As a general rule, timbre matching between the front and surround speakers is not an important issue. However, if you consider this issue to be important, you may not be able to get good voice matching between the Monopole front speakers and Dipole surround speakers because of the out-of-phase nature of the Dipole speakers. You may have a better chance of timbre matching between Monopole front speakers and Bipole surround speakers because the speakers are in phase and will not work against each other.

Quote:
Timbre:
Definition according to American National Standards Institutde (ANSI): The combination of qualities of a sound that distinguishes it from other sounds of the same pitch and volume.

Timbre is also known as tone quality or tone color. It is sometimes described as sound quality. The term quality in this context refers to how a sound comes across to a listener as the general character of the sound.

In music, timbre is the quality of a musical note or sound or tone that distinguishes different types of sound production, such as voices or musical instruments. More specifically, timbre enables the listener to identify the source of the sound (the particular musical instrument making the sound) and according to some musical type such as brass or string instruments. For example, timbre is what people use to distinguish a trumpet from a saxophone if both instruments are playing notes at the same pitch and loudness. No amount of equalization will make the two instruments sound the same.

Pitch:
In music, pitch is the perception of the fundamental frequency of a note. Pitch is something perceived by the human ear, as opposed to frequency, the physical measurement of vibration. Pitch of a sound is determined by the frequency of vibration of the sound waves reaching the ear: the greater the frequency, the higher the pitch.

Pitch can be rank ordered on a scale from low to high and loudness can be arranged on a scale from soft to loud. We generally correlate pitch with fundamental frequency and loudness with intensity.

Timbre is different than pitch and loudness and cannot be reduced to one-dimensional scale. It cannot be related with any one physical dimension of a sound. We cannot say high timbre or low timbre. This makes the definition of timbre very vague.

Timbre and equalization are different by definition and no amount of equalization will have any effect on timbre. Equalization simply increases or decreases the level of certain frequencies. After equalization you can still distinguish between the speakers.

Last edited by Big Daddy; 02-11-2013 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 04-18-2011, 04:19 AM   #2
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I will add to this thread when I have more time.
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Old 04-18-2011, 04:20 AM   #3
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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OMG, another sticky thread.

Please don’t blame me. Blame HAMP for twisting my arm and forcing me to create this thread.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 04-18-2011, 04:54 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
OMG, another sticky thread.

Please don’t blame me. Blame HAMP for twisting my arm and forcing me to create this thread.
hahahahaha...

That had to be about the softest twist ever...

This is gonna be good... Got me already!!!!

Last edited by HAMP; 04-18-2011 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:19 AM   #5
sazabi sazabi is offline
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will man thanx in advance for the new thread
Panasonic 40 Full HD Plasma
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Front Speakers: Jamo E 750
Center Speaker: Jamo E 7CEN
Surround Speakers: Jamo E 700
Surround Back Speakers:Yamaha NS-B210
Subwoofer: Jamo SUB 550
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sazabi View Post
will man thanx in advance for the new thread
Thank you. I added more information to post #1. I will add more in the future.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 04-18-2011, 04:01 PM   #7
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"It is true. I have lost my mind."

Hahahaha. Though this maybe true, this hobby requires a touch of insanity.

Great job BD. Very helpful.

I do have a few questions:

1. In a home theater w/ 2-3 rows, can someone put 2-3 rows of bipole speakers for each row like your last monopole example? I was just wondering if the diffused nature of bipoles will interfere w/ each other w/ speakers in each row. What about the same question w/ dipoles?

2. How high above the listeners' heads is ideal for these 3 types of speakers? Does this ideal height vary due to distance, ceiling height, or any other factors?

Thanks again BD for your hard work. I would still have my Polk RM6800 without your help.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:23 PM   #8
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali157 View Post
"It is true. I have lost my mind."

Hahahaha. Though this maybe true, this hobby requires a touch of insanity.

Great job BD. Very helpful.

I do have a few questions:

1. In a home theater w/ 2-3 rows, can someone put 2-3 rows of bipole speakers for each row like your last monopole example? I was just wondering if the diffused nature of bipoles will interfere w/ each other w/ speakers in each row. What about the same question w/ dipoles?

2. How high above the listeners' heads is ideal for these 3 types of speakers? Does this ideal height vary due to distance, ceiling height, or any other factors?

Thanks again BD for your hard work. I would still have my Polk RM6800 without your help.
Thank you. I am definitely insane.

Place the surround speakers about 2-3 feet above your head when you are sitting down. I realize that most of us do not have too many options for surround placement. A few inches here or there shouldn't make any difference.

Yes, you can use several rows of bipole speakers on side walls. One of the unique features of my receiver is that it supports four side surround speakers and two rear surround speakers. It calls the side surround speakers Surround A and Surround B. One set of the surround speakers must be powered with an external amplifier. During calibration, Audyssey goes through Surround A speakers first and calibrates their levels and it next goes through Surround B speakers and calibrates their levels. Then it goes back and calibrates the combined Surround A+B on the right and on the left.

I have two PSB Image S50 bipole speakers as Surround A. They are placed approximately on the same line or a bit ahead of the front row seats. The Surround B are a pair of Definitive Technology BPX bipole speakers and they are placed on the side walls approximately on the same line as the back row of seats. The two rear surround speakers are two Bose 901. I don't know how to describe them. Each 901 has 9 full-range drivers and the drivers mostly shoot toward the back wall. They are an awesome pair of speakers and are meant to be used as front speakers in a two channel setup. I am currently suffereing from speakeritis and subwooferitis and do not know have any room for the 901 speakers. In a two-channel setup in a large room, they are capable of creating the soundfield of a large concert hall.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.

Last edited by Big Daddy; 04-20-2011 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:07 AM   #9
crazyBLUE crazyBLUE is offline
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I like the idea of the 12 surround speakers To bad I have to much work invested in my surrounds as they are

Nice new Sticky Big Daddy
Brent

Changing to 4K ~ Got the 60" TV. Next the player, movies. Then the sound system ~ Again LOL........
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:23 AM   #10
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
I like the idea of the 12 surround speakers To bad I have to much work invested in my surrounds as they are

Nice new Sticky Big Daddy
You need to saw your big surround speakers and convert them to 12 smaller surround speakers.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:33 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
You need to saw your big surround speakers and convert them to 12 smaller surround speakers.
I will if you add the amplifiers to cover the other 8 speakers. An XPA-5 & an XPA-3 would give me 5 amplifiers & the gear stand would fall through the floor
Brent

Changing to 4K ~ Got the 60" TV. Next the player, movies. Then the sound system ~ Again LOL........
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
I will if you add the amplifiers to cover the other 8 speakers. An XPA-5 & an XPA-3 would give me 5 amplifiers & the gear stand would fall through the floor
I will send you my Cinepro amp. It has 6 channels.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
I will send you my Cinepro amp. It has 6 channels.
Cool ~ I have the surrounds Bi-amped so I have the other 2 channels covered. I should just buy 8 more TSi-300's & do the same thing to them & hang them on the wall as audio decoration
Brent

Changing to 4K ~ Got the 60" TV. Next the player, movies. Then the sound system ~ Again LOL........
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Old 04-19-2011, 04:23 AM   #14
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The thread is almost completed. I am tired and need a rest. I will send the bill to Hamp for making me work so hard. I haven't slept or eaten much in the last 24 hours. Somebody better take me to dinner.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 04-19-2011, 04:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
The thread is almost completed. I am tired and need a rest. I will send the bill to Hamp for making me work so hard. I haven't slept or eaten much in the last 24 hours. Somebody better take me to dinner.
When I ever make it to Cali, I would be more then honored to do so!!!!
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:50 PM   #16
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My seating arangement is currently in a corner of my room due to how my room is designed. Given my Klipsch S1 speakers (which will more than likely change at some point). Could I mount one on the wall behind and one to the side wall? Or would it be best to have them both mounted behind? They are currently both sitting on end tables at the moment. The way my room is currently arranged I could mount them behind me but i'm considering swapping everything and doing a 180 with my gear/sofa. Attached is a pic. Any help is much appreciated!

Jay's Stuff!
TV -50" Panasonic Viera TH50PZ85U
Receiver - Anthem MRX300
Speakers - Klipsch F-1(L/R), C-1 (Center), S-1(Surrounds)
Subwoofer - Epik Legend
Misc - PS3 40GB, Xbox 360, Harmony 1100 Remote
My Blu-Ray Collection: 433 http://genocide316.dvdaf.com/owned
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genocide316 View Post
My seating arangement is currently in a corner of my room due to how my room is designed. Given my Klipsch S1 speakers (which will more than likely change at some point). Could I mount one on the wall behind and one to the side wall? Or would it be best to have them both mounted behind? They are currently both sitting on end tables at the moment. The way my room is currently arranged I could mount them behind me but i'm considering swapping everything and doing a 180 with my gear/sofa. Attached is a pic. Any help is much appreciated!

The first thing you should do is try to rearrange the room so that your sofa is not against the wall. When you sit against the wall, the bass becomes too loud and boomy. Sitting in a corner and having a suwoofer placed another corner against the walls will make the bass very tiring and may give you a headache after a couple of hours. In general, there should be as much distance between the listening sofa and the rear wall as your room will allow.

It really doesn't matter whether the surround speakers are attached to the side walls or to the rear wall as long as both of them have the same height and are on the same line.

In your current setup, you can attach one surround speaker to the side wall and attach the other one to the ceiling with a couple of angled and straight brackets from Home Depot. The brackets have hole in them and you can use screws and nuts to attach them together to make sure the height of both seakers is the same. Three of my surround speakers are attached to the ceiling with these type of brackets. Only one is attached to the side wall. The brackets are relatively inexpensive.

The other option is to attach one surround speaker to the side wall and put the other one on a tall speaker stand as in the following diagram. Make sure the height of the two speakers is the same.


HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:08 AM   #18
HAMP HAMP is offline
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I love having di-pole surrounds and one day I will try them in bi-pole mode, it’s just that Monitor Audio suggested that if you have all four, then a person should use them in di-pole mode.

Then I read this comment in the first post by Big Daddy:

Quote:
As a general rule, timbre matching between the front and surround speakers is not an important issue. However, if you consider this issue to be important, you may not be able to get good voice matching between the Monopole front speakers and Dipole surround speakers because of the out-of-phase nature of the Dipole speakers. You may have a better chance of timbre matching between Monopole front speakers and Bipole surround speakers because the speakers are in phase and will not work against each other.
That statement has raised my brow abit and has me wondering, shouldn’t a company that makes the entire set, compensate for this to make them match or become extremely close?

I honestly hear and know that they timbre match perfectly. He does state “you may not”, so I figure Monitor Audio worked on that problem.


One of the biggest differences I find with direct and having di-pole is location. Having in the past direct radiating speakers, I noticed when an effect would happen in the surround speakers, I would turn my head towards that speaker. While with di-pole, I am looking around the room, instead of pin pointing the effect/speaker. These effects truly make my movie watching much more enjoyable, and well worth the extra bucks compared to direct radiating surround speakers.

Of course, the wife and I have come across something that seems to be a problem with having di-pole speakers instead of direct radiating.

Having direct radiating and being able to pin pointing the noise with all the lights out, rather sets your mind as ease, because you know where the sound is coming from.

But,

Having di-pole and not pin pointing the sound, we were not sure if the effect was from the movie or something is going on in our home. The problem would be, having to pause and listening to see if something is going outside of what we were watching. This has happened several times.


One effect of not being able to pin point the sound in a movie I recently watched. Some guys were in the car talking and it was raining outside, and the drips on the roof seem to encompass us, making us feel like we were in the vehicle with them and not coming from a certain part of the room.
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:29 AM   #19
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMP View Post
I love having di-pole surrounds and one day I will try them in bi-pole mode, it’s just that Monitor Audio suggested that if you have all four, then a person should use them in di-pole mode.

Then I read this comment in the first post by Big Daddy:


That statement has raised my brow abit and has me wondering, shouldn’t a company that makes the entire set, compensate for this to make them match or become extremely close?

I honestly hear and know that they timbre match perfectly. He does state “you may not”, so I figure Monitor Audio worked on that problem.
Timbre matching between front speakers and surround speakers, particularly if you are using bipole/dipole surround speakers, is a non issues. Don't waste your energy. As you experienced it yourself, with bipole/dipole surround speakers, you are hearing the room and not the speakers. Monopole surround speakers may have an advantage as far as mathcing the front speakers is concerned, but then again I even consider timbre matching between the three front speakers a bit overrated. We don't live in an anechoic chamber. In a typical home theater room, even the right and the left speakers may not sound alike.

I use six surround speakers. Each set is from a different company.

Side Surround A: Two Bipole PSB Image S50
Side Surround B: Two Bipole Def Tech BPX
Rear Surround: Two Bose 901

The Bose 901 speakers are curved. Each speaker has nine full-range drivers and most of the drivers are on the back of the speakers shooting toward the rear wall. They create a huge soundfield. When used as front speakers in a two-channel setup, you get the feeling that your sitting in a concert hall. The surround sound in my home theater is so good that I sometimes intentionally turn off the front speakers to just listen to the surround speakers.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:31 AM   #20
Kali157 Kali157 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Thank you. I am definitely insane.

Place the surround speakers about 2-3 feet above your head when you are sitting down. I realize that most of us do not have too many options for surround placement. A few inches here or there shouldn't make any difference.

Yes, you can use several rows of bipole speakers on side walls. One of the unique features of my receiver is that it supports four side surround speakers and two rear surround speakers. It calls the side surround speakers Surround A and Surround B. One set of the surround speakers must be powered with an external amplifier. During calibration, Audyssey goes through Surround A speakers first and calibrates their levels and it next goes through Surround B speakers and calibrates their levels. Then it goes back and calibrates the combined Surround A+B on the right and on the left.

I have two PSB Image S50 bipole speakers as Surround A. They are placed approximately on the same line or a bit ahead of the front row seats. The Surround B are a pair of Definitive Technology BPX bipole speakers and they are placed on the side walls approximately on the same line as the back row of seats. The two rear surround speakers are two Bose 901. I don't know how to describe them. Each 901 has 9 full-range drivers and the drivers mostly shoot toward the back wall. They are an awesome pair of speakers and are meant to be used as front speakers in a two channel setup. I am currently suffereing from speakeritis and subwooferitis and do not know have any room for the 901 speakers. In a two-channel setup in a large room, they are capable of creating the soundfield of a large concert hall.
Thanks for all the work and the response.

Last edited by Big Daddy; 04-20-2011 at 04:34 AM.
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