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Old 06-20-2011, 12:45 AM   #1
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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I've asked this question on here in other threads and on other sites, but haven't gotten any answers.

I have a PS3 Slim and a Panasonic ST30. Both the PS3 and my new ST30 are both 24p devices. Problem is, watching blu-ray movies in it's "proper" 24p fashion looks very blurry and choppy when the camera pans from left to right, or vice versa. (motion judder?)

So my question is, can the PS3 AND my ST30 switch to 60p? I know there is an option under video settings on the PS3 that allows you to toggle between automatic, on, and off for 24p playback. I'm assuming that "off" would mean 60p? Thing is, when I change it to off, I don't see any difference on my tv. And on my ST30 I don't know how to turn the 24p off, so I still get the motion judder.

I know that watching blu-rays in 24p is the "proper" way to watch them, but all I see is terrible motion judder when the camera moves from left to right.

HELP!
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T.V. - Panasonic TC-P50ST30
Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1020-K
Speakers - Martin Logan Motion 8 center channel; Martin Logan Motion 4 front bookshelfs, Sony HTiB SS-VE67P surrounds; Sony SA-W2500 subwoofer
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:43 AM   #2
rdodolak rdodolak is online now
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In the advanced settings of your TV have you tried setting "24p Direct In" to "48Hz"? Also in advanced settings, do you have the "Motion Smoother" turned on or off?
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:46 AM   #3
crackinhedz crackinhedz is offline
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Your ST30 is not 24 fps native...it accepts 24 fps, but uses 2:3 pulldown to convert to 60 fps...so you are probably better leaving the PS3 24Hz off.

edit: I was going by Panasonics website which does not show 24 cinematic playback...but in the manual it does say "24p Direct In = 60/48Hz" ...in which case, 48 Hz is what you would want, PS3 set to ON. (but have seen many reviews that say 48 Hz creates a flicker...some may not like this, and some may not even notice?

Last edited by crackinhedz; 06-20-2011 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 06-20-2011, 03:01 AM   #4
richieb1971 richieb1971 is offline
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The only feature thats going to make a difference here is interpolation.

If the source is 24p, no matter what options you choose its going to be choppy. Your just deciding if the PS3 is converting to 60p or if the TV is converting to 60p. Either way its 24p converted.

What you really want is for James Cameron to start Avatar 2 so that every single movie thereafter runs at 48p or more.
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Old 06-20-2011, 04:04 AM   #5
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdodolak View Post
In the advanced settings of your TV have you tried setting "24p Direct In" to "48Hz"? Also in advanced settings, do you have the "Motion Smoother" turned on or off?
Yes, I've tried 48hz. It looks like a strobe light... terrible. I've always had motion smoother off. I hate the soap opera look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crackinhedz View Post
Your ST30 is not 24 fps native...it accepts 24 fps, but uses 2:3 pulldown to convert to 60 fps...so you are probably better leaving the PS3 24Hz off.

edit: I was going by Panasonics website which does not show 24 cinematic playback...but in the manual it does say "24p Direct In = 60/48Hz" ...in which case, 48 Hz is what you would want, PS3 set to ON. (but have seen many reviews that say 48 Hz creates a flicker...some may not like this, and some may not even notice?
If the PS3 24hz is set to off, the 24p direct in 48/60 is grayscaled. So it's automatically going to be 60hz. If I turn the PS3 24p on, I can use either 48hz or 60hz. But 48hz looks like strobe light, and the motion judder is still there. So no matter what, motion judder is still there.

And the 2:3 pulldown only works on 1080i, not 1080p. So that's grayscaled out as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richieb1971 View Post
The only feature thats going to make a difference here is interpolation.

If the source is 24p, no matter what options you choose its going to be choppy. Your just deciding if the PS3 is converting to 60p or if the TV is converting to 60p. Either way its 24p converted.

What you really want is for James Cameron to start Avatar 2 so that every single movie thereafter runs at 48p or more.
Then how come my old 2007 Panasonic 720p plasma looked very smooth with no motion judder when I watched a blu-ray? That was a 60p tv, right? It doesn't matter what I choose on the PS3... it all depends on the tv. If the tv is a 24p tv, then I will be seeing 24p choppy. I don't understand how an older plasma can look better than a new one when watching blu-rays. i just don't get it. I can't possibly be the only one who notices this issue.
Dodgers, Lakers, Packers, and F1 fan.

T.V. - Panasonic TC-P50ST30
Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1020-K
Speakers - Martin Logan Motion 8 center channel; Martin Logan Motion 4 front bookshelfs, Sony HTiB SS-VE67P surrounds; Sony SA-W2500 subwoofer
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:15 AM   #6
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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Well, I didn't get much help on this issue here.

So, I called Panasonic and after telling them my issue, and them trying to narrow down the problem to see if I could fix it, they are going to send a Panasonic technician to my house.

It will either be an 3rd party independent technician, or a Panasonic representative, who ever's available first. This motion judder is inexcusable and I will have this issue resolved sooner or later. My 2006 TH-42PX60U never had this problem, using the exact same connections as I'm running now.
Dodgers, Lakers, Packers, and F1 fan.

T.V. - Panasonic TC-P50ST30
Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1020-K
Speakers - Martin Logan Motion 8 center channel; Martin Logan Motion 4 front bookshelfs, Sony HTiB SS-VE67P surrounds; Sony SA-W2500 subwoofer
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:46 AM   #7
kimbonaterX kimbonaterX is offline
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Make sure to let us know how it turns out. I'm curious to hear what it is.
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Old 08-04-2011, 03:18 AM   #8
kashif kashif is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbonaterX View Post
Make sure to let us know how it turns out. I'm curious to hear what it is.
I am curious too...
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:11 AM   #9
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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you got it guys. I also plan on getting back to my local Magnolia guy. i told him my situation as well, and he said he is aware of it. He said i could just be a firmware update, because it's most likely a software update... and that it has nothing to do with the panel.
Dodgers, Lakers, Packers, and F1 fan.

T.V. - Panasonic TC-P50ST30
Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1020-K
Speakers - Martin Logan Motion 8 center channel; Martin Logan Motion 4 front bookshelfs, Sony HTiB SS-VE67P surrounds; Sony SA-W2500 subwoofer
3D Blu-ray player - 120 GB PS3 Slim
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Old 08-05-2011, 01:27 AM   #10
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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Panasonic called me this morning to set up an appointment. Next Tuesday a Panasonic rep, that works for a company called The Repair Group, will come to my house to check out the problem on my tv. Hopefully I will get some answers and a solution. I'll keep you guys posted.
Dodgers, Lakers, Packers, and F1 fan.

T.V. - Panasonic TC-P50ST30
Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1020-K
Speakers - Martin Logan Motion 8 center channel; Martin Logan Motion 4 front bookshelfs, Sony HTiB SS-VE67P surrounds; Sony SA-W2500 subwoofer
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:13 PM   #11
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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Ok, so over a month later, the Panasonic rep FINALLY came to my house.

Long story short, there is no problem with my ST30. What I've been seeing is a natural effect of 24p, or 24 frames per second. Some people have more discerning eyes than others. I'm detail oriented, and so I happen to see motion judder a lot easier than most other people. It's just something I'll have to deal with. It sucks, but it is what it is.

One plus is that the Panasonic rep gave me a firmware update on my ST30 which supposedly gets rid of the fluctuating brightness issue. I never really had that much of a problem to begin with, but it's nice to know that he addressed that issue.

*sigh*
Dodgers, Lakers, Packers, and F1 fan.

T.V. - Panasonic TC-P50ST30
Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1020-K
Speakers - Martin Logan Motion 8 center channel; Martin Logan Motion 4 front bookshelfs, Sony HTiB SS-VE67P surrounds; Sony SA-W2500 subwoofer
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:55 AM   #12
kefrank kefrank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volcomsocal View Post
Ok, so over a month later, the Panasonic rep FINALLY came to my house.

Long story short, there is no problem with my ST30. What I've been seeing is a natural effect of 24p, or 24 frames per second. Some people have more discerning eyes than others. I'm detail oriented, and so I happen to see motion judder a lot easier than most other people. It's just something I'll have to deal with. It sucks, but it is what it is.

One plus is that the Panasonic rep gave me a firmware update on my ST30 which supposedly gets rid of the fluctuating brightness issue. I never really had that much of a problem to begin with, but it's nice to know that he addressed that issue.

*sigh*
Glad you at least got it settled finally. You do at least have the option of deciding which is the lesser of two evils: motion interpolation providing smooth pans with the overall "soap opera effect" or native 24p with its inherent motion judder.

(You could also have the PS3 do 3:2 pulldown, which results in a different kind of judder that is sometimes actually slightly better). Here's an article that talks about all this judder stuff in more detail.
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:35 AM   #13
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
Glad you at least got it settled finally. You do at least have the option of deciding which is the lesser of two evils: motion interpolation providing smooth pans with the overall "soap opera effect" or native 24p with its inherent motion judder.

(You could also have the PS3 do 3:2 pulldown, which results in a different kind of judder that is sometimes actually slightly better). Here's an article that talks about all this judder stuff in more detail.
I will never use the motion smoother on my ST30. I'd rather have the motion judder than use the smoother effect.


I've actually read that article before. 2 things though...

a) How do I put my PS3 to 60p?? The only option I have under video settings is to turn 24p on, off, or automatic. I've used all 3 settings, and they all look the same when it comes to motion judder.

b) How and where can I use 3:2 pulldown on my PS3?? I've never seen that option anywhere. I would love to use it, but isn't 3:2 pulldown only available when watching content in 1080i? For instance, when watching my DirecTv in 720p, the 3:2 pulldown option on my ST30 is grayscaled. But when I watch my DirecTv in 1080i, I can then choose the 3:2 pulldown option.

Before I had my ST30, I had a 2006 Panasonic 720p plasma that obviously wasn't 24p, so I'm assuming it ran all 720p content at 30fps. And if that's what this whole 3:2 pulldown thing is, then I'm all for it. But I don't think that I have that option on my PS3 or ST30 when watching movies in 1080p.

So if you could clarify and help me out with these 2 things, that'd be great!
Dodgers, Lakers, Packers, and F1 fan.

T.V. - Panasonic TC-P50ST30
Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1020-K
Speakers - Martin Logan Motion 8 center channel; Martin Logan Motion 4 front bookshelfs, Sony HTiB SS-VE67P surrounds; Sony SA-W2500 subwoofer
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Old 09-10-2011, 03:46 AM   #14
kefrank kefrank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volcomsocal View Post
I will never use the motion smoother on my ST30. I'd rather have the motion judder than use the smoother effect.
Solid. I personally hate the motion smoother as well.

Quote:
a) How do I put my PS3 to 60p?? The only option I have under video settings is to turn 24p on, off, or automatic. I've used all 3 settings, and they all look the same when it comes to motion judder.
If you set 24p to OFF, the PS3 will output 1080p60. Alternatively, you can set 24p to ON and set your TV's 24p Direct In setting to 60Hz. In the former case, the PS3 applies pulldown to display the 24 progressive frames across 60 full screen refreshes in an uneven pattern (since 24 does not go into 60 evenly). In the latter case, this processing is done in the television. The judder may have looked the same to you when you tried it, but there would definitely be subtle differences in the judder. When pulldown has been applied, you get "telecine judder" which gives a slightly jerky appearance to pans at certain speeds, because of the uneven number of repeating frames. It's usually very noticeable on slow-scrolling credits if you look for it. In America, we've become conditioned to telecine judder, because it's been present when watching 24fps sources on 60Hz TVs for years.

Quote:
b) How and where can I use 3:2 pulldown on my PS3?? I've never seen that option anywhere. I would love to use it, but isn't 3:2 pulldown only available when watching content in 1080i? For instance, when watching my DirecTv in 720p, the 3:2 pulldown option on my ST30 is grayscaled. But when I watch my DirecTv in 1080i, I can then choose the 3:2 pulldown option.
I think what's confusing you here is that there is another setting on your TV called "3:2 Pulldown." That setting is specifically for interlaced sources being fed into the TV. Basically, you're telling the TV to try and detect a 24fps source in the cadence of the interlaced fields and apply pulldown during the de-interlacing process if necessary. If you really want to see how that would work with the PS3, you could set the only output resolution for the PS3 to 1080i and the 3:2 Pulldown setting on your TV to ON. However, that likely would only potentially introduce more artifacts than the settings I described above.

Quote:
Before I had my ST30, I had a 2006 Panasonic 720p plasma that obviously wasn't 24p, so I'm assuming it ran all 720p content at 30fps. And if that's what this whole 3:2 pulldown thing is, then I'm all for it. But I don't think that I have that option on my PS3 or ST30 when watching movies in 1080p.
Yes, your 720p plasma almost certainly applied pulldown to any 24fps source that you fed it. The fact that the judder wasn't as obvious to you on that set is somewhat mysterious. Perhaps it simply wasn't as noticeable to you because of the lower resolution and (I'm assuming) smaller screen size. Do you still have that TV? Can you do a side-by-side comparison to see if perhaps you might notice the judder on the old TV when you're looking for it?
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:46 AM   #15
volcomsocal volcomsocal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
If you set 24p to OFF, the PS3 will output 1080p60.
I did not know that. That is good to know. It seems like the PS3 is the only blu-ray player that doesn't tell you on-screen which "p" is running... whether it's 24 or 60. Seems like every stand alone blu-ray player tells you on the tv if it's 24p or 60p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
Alternatively, you can set 24p to ON and set your TV's 24p Direct In setting to 60Hz. In the former case, the PS3 applies pulldown to display the 24 progressive frames across 60 full screen refreshes in an uneven pattern (since 24 does not go into 60 evenly). In the latter case, this processing is done in the television. The judder may have looked the same to you when you tried it, but there would definitely be subtle differences in the judder. When pulldown has been applied, you get "telecine judder" which gives a slightly jerky appearance to pans at certain speeds, because of the uneven number of repeating frames. It's usually very noticeable on slow-scrolling credits if you look for it. In America, we've become conditioned to telecine judder, because it's been present when watching 24fps sources on 60Hz TVs for years.
I always have 60hz running on my tv no matter what setting I have my PS3 set to. 48hz is unbearable... I never have it on that setting. So basically, no matter what, I'm always running 60p, as opposed to 24p. My PS3 is set to "24p off", and my ST30 is set to 60hz. So according to you, that would be running at 60p. But the problem is, the motion judder is still there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
I think what's confusing you here is that there is another setting on your TV called "3:2 Pulldown." That setting is specifically for interlaced sources being fed into the TV. Basically, you're telling the TV to try and detect a 24fps source in the cadence of the interlaced fields and apply pulldown during the de-interlacing process if necessary. If you really want to see how that would work with the PS3, you could set the only output resolution for the PS3 to 1080i and the 3:2 Pulldown setting on your TV to ON. However, that likely would only potentially introduce more artifacts than the settings I described above.
Yeah, that's what I thought regarding 3:2 pulldown. I knew it was only in accordance with interlaced material. But no, I'd never have my PS3 only set to 1080i... not gonna happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
Yes, your 720p plasma almost certainly applied pulldown to any 24fps source that you fed it. The fact that the judder wasn't as obvious to you on that set is somewhat mysterious. Perhaps it simply wasn't as noticeable to you because of the lower resolution and (I'm assuming) smaller screen size. Do you still have that TV? Can you do a side-by-side comparison to see if perhaps you might notice the judder on the old TV when you're looking for it?
Yes, my old 720p plasma was 42". I don't have the tv anymore, as I sold it to a friend. But I swear I never saw motion judder on that tv... or at least not nearly as bad as I do now on my 50" ST30.
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T.V. - Panasonic TC-P50ST30
Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1020-K
Speakers - Martin Logan Motion 8 center channel; Martin Logan Motion 4 front bookshelfs, Sony HTiB SS-VE67P surrounds; Sony SA-W2500 subwoofer
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