Best Blu-ray Deals

Best Blu-ray Deals, See All the Deals »
Top deals | Price drops  
 All countries United States United Kingdom Canada Germany France Spain Italy Japan
Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods (Blu-ray)
$17.99
The Dick Van Dyke Show: The Complete Series (Blu-ray)
$54.99
Willow (Blu-ray)
$9.96
Attack on Titan Part 2 (Blu-ray)
$24.95
28 Days Later / 28 Weeks Later (Blu-ray)
$7.99
James Cameron's Deepsea Challenge 3D (Blu-ray)
$15.89
Mad Men: The Final Season, Part 1 (Blu-ray)
$19.99
Game of Thrones - The Complete Second Season (Blu-ray)
$34.99
Chucky: The Complete Collection (Blu-ray)
$31.76
John Carter (Blu-ray)
$9.96
Star Trek: The Compendium (Blu-ray)
$24.96
Psycho (Blu-ray)
$10.98
Ghostbusters 1 & 2 (Blu-ray)
$15.91
Masterpiece: Downton Abbey Seasons 1 - 4 (Blu-ray)
$44.99
Fairy Tail: Part 11 (Blu-ray)
$31.69
Minority Report (Blu-ray)
$7.88
COLLECT WATCH TRACK RATE REVIEW APP
Manage your own movie collection and always keep it with you with our Apps. Price track movies and get price drop notifications instantly. Become a member to take full advantage of all site features.
GET STARTED

Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Audio Theory and Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-11-2011, 12:33 PM   #1
Biggen Biggen is offline
Member
 
Aug 2011
Default Confused on what YPAO is really doing for me.

Ok, so I finally got all my speakers in and mounted just how I want them. I am running a Paradigm Millenia 20 Trio L/C/R soundbar for my fronts, two Paradigm Atom Monitors as my surrounds, and one Epik Legend as my sub. My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V867.

I ran the YPAO but I guess I don't understand what it is really doing for me if I go back and tweak the hell out of everything it sets. For example it sets:

1. Speaker size small (correct)
2. Says Wiring is correct
3. Distance. It is off here. I use a tape measure and redo all distances from my main listening position.
4. Levels. I'm buying a SPL meter today from radio shack and will follow Big Daddys sticky on using a SPL to check levels. Right now, it has all my levels at 0.0 except for my rears which it set to -2.0db and my sub which it set to -10.0db. I don't understand this. My sub gain control (knob on the back) is only at 50% so I don't know why it is setting it so low.
5. PEQ. It sets it to Flat. I really don't know what this is so I have left it be.
6. Crossover. It sets it to 110hz which seems to high from the reading I have been doing. I don't want my sub distorting by trying to play high frequency sound.

I read through the sticky Big Daddy did on Audessey and found it very informative. However, is YPAO really as "in depth" as the Audessey program? I mean it seems like I am having to change just about everything (except PEQ) so I am confused on exactly what it is doing in the background I don't know about.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 05:43 AM   #2
kiwi2 kiwi2 is offline
Member
 
Jun 2011
New Zealand
Default

I have had a couple of Yamaha AVRs for about a year and still find myself making small changes day to day for small improvements.

I let YPAO do its thing for a start... then adjust for myself afterwards.

Don't be afraid to experiment for yourself and let your ears be the judge.

Distance - I measure them for myself apart from the sub(s). Sub(s) distance is set by ear and/or SPL meter. I also fine tune speaker distance to get the soundstage I like. As I like to listen to 2ch material in the AVR's '7ch stero' mode - making changes of even 10cm has quite an a affect on the sound and soundstage.

Levels - you certainly need a SPL meter..!

EQ - I have never liked the EQ YPAO applies as I find it kills too much detail. I use GEQ and my own settings.

Crossover - Again, set what sounds best to you. Depending on your room, sub(s), speakers and your preference, it could end up anywhere. i.e. I find 60hz sounds best in my room. 80hz has always sounded muddy to me even though 80hz is the "recommended" setting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 06:14 AM   #3
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
Power Member
 
Yeha-Noha's Avatar
 
Jan 2008
43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen View Post
Ok, so I finally got all my speakers in and mounted just how I want them. I am running a Paradigm Millenia 20 Trio L/C/R soundbar for my fronts, two Paradigm Atom Monitors as my surrounds, and one Epik Legend as my sub. My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V867.

I read through the sticky Big Daddy did on Audessey and found it very informative. However, is YPAO really as "in depth" as the Audessey program? I mean it seems like I am having to change just about everything (except PEQ) so I am confused on exactly what it is doing in the background I don't know about.
What YPAO is supposed to do in theory is equalize your speakers so their response in the listening room has a FLAT, NATURAL, or FRONT emphasis. FLAT is the recommended PEQ curve to choose. However it assumes the speakers are all of nearly equal quality. NATURAL is chosen if the FLAT PEQ curve sounds rather harsh in the highs. Thus it de-emphasizes the highs a little. FRONT is generally not recommended. It does no PEQ on the front left and right speakers. Rather it attempts to match the other speakers to the room response of the front speakers. If you have high end fronts teamed with lower quality center and surrounds, then you may want to choose FRONT. However, best results would be obtained by matching quality of the rest of your speakers to the front L and R making sure they are from the same manufacturer and same series.

I don't consider YPAO as being on par with Audyssey unless you have the higher end Yamaha AVRs that allow you to use multiple positions for calibration.

Unfortunately, YPAO makes some assumptions about your speaker locations. Refer to the speaker setup diagrams in your manual for 7.1, 6.1, or 5.1. My RX-V663 manual's diagrams assumes the standard setup recommended by Dolby Digital for the angles and positions of the speakers. If you can set yours up just like those diagrams, and can position the optimizer mic at ear level in the central seating position like in the diagrams, you should get better results from YPAO. When it measures the distances and phase angles, it will reference them to those diagrams. Thus, regarding your L C R soundbar, I am not so sure YPAO is going to reliably set PEQ properly, although it may set the speaker channel levels more or less correctly. But it can't hurt to try. Not all of us have rooms that allow such a setup. If yours doesn't, like mine doesn't, then you may not get good results.

Quote:
I ran the YPAO but I guess I don't understand what it is really doing for me if I go back and tweak the hell out of everything it sets. For example it sets:

1. Speaker size small (correct)
2. Says Wiring is correct
3. Distance. It is off here. I use a tape measure and redo all distances from my main listening position.
4. Levels. I'm buying a SPL meter today from radio shack and will follow Big Daddys sticky on using a SPL to check levels. Right now, it has all my levels at 0.0 except for my rears which it set to -2.0db and my sub which it set to -10.0db. I don't understand this. My sub gain control (knob on the back) is only at 50% so I don't know why it is setting it so low.
5. PEQ. It sets it to Flat. I really don't know what this is so I have left it be.
6. Crossover. It sets it to 110hz which seems to high from the reading I have been doing. I don't want my sub distorting by trying to play high frequency sound.
Ok, here #1 and #2 are very important. Regarding #1, YPAO is prone to setting the wrong speaker size.. The correct size is Small for home theater installations. If it sets a speaker to Large, it is very suspicious. Just set it to Small. It's too bad that neither Audyssey nor YPAO default to Small during auto setup. Because of my irregular shaped room, YPAO will set my surround speakers to Large and my towers to Small! Regarding #2,do correct any wiring polarity issues found by YPAO. Sometimes, but rarely, it may make an error. If after checking the polarity of the speaker cable with respect to the speaker input terminals and you know it's correct despite what YPAO reports, you probably can ignore it. YPAO's setting in that case should be fine assuming that the wiring polarity inside the speaker was correctly done at the factory.

#3: You said the distance is incorrect? Perhaps not. What you measure may disagree with YPAO's measurement. Why? Because of phase shift. Ideally, you want your sub to be in phase with each speaker. That is not an easy task to do by yourself during a manual setup. However, one or more speakers may not be in phase with your sub in the range of frequencies they have in common below or above the crossover frequency. Thus there can be a phase shift. YPAO can correct for that by calculating what distance that/those speaker(s) need to be in order to maintain phase coherency with the subwoofer. It may just compensate for it by setting the subwoofer to a shorter or greater distance as well. Unless you have the technical knowledge and can make measurements on your own to show that those are in error, your safest bet is just to accept the distances set by YPAO.

#4. Using an SPL meter set all your speakers, except for the sub, to SPL = 75 db. Be sure your volume control is set to 0.0 db too before you do so. Leave the sub level, for now, at the level set by YPAO. Now, listen to your favorite music or watch your favorite movie. If the bass seems too be lacking foundation, increase the subwoofer level a little bit at a time in your AVR's speaker level settings (don't mess with the level on your sub) until it sounds natural and balanced with the rest of your speakers. If it is overwhelming, like you have a hard time understanding dialogue from your center channel, decrease the subwoofer level a little bit at a time until it sounds natural, balanced, and with good dialogue clarity. A common mistake made by many is setting the subwoofer level too high. YPAO in my setup is conservative and creates a hedge or margin of safety by setting the subwoofer level a bit low. However, sometimes it may set it too high. Unless you have the know how and the proper equipment, you ears are probably going to be the best judge for setting the subwoofer level. You can't use the test tones in your AVR even though one is labelled subwoofer. Your RS SPL meter isn't accurate enough in the bass frequencies to set the subwoofer level correctly using those test tones.

#5. PEQ is set by the user before YPAO is run. At least in my AVR, the RX-V663, that's the case. I'm sure yours is done that way too. I have already explained about PEQ, FLAT, NATURAL, and FRONT. See above.

#6. Yes agreed, more than likely 110 Hz is too high. You may want to consider 80 Hz if your soundbar and surrounds have frequency repsonse down to 70 Hx. Although I can go down to 60 Hz because my surrounds are +/- 3db at 50 Hz, an 80 Hz crossover gives better dialogue clarity in my center channel. At least it is in my HT setup. No, your sub isn't likely to distort up to 120 Hz which is the set standard upper limit for the LFE channel. If your sub can't handle up to 120 Hz reasonablely distortion free, get another sub or your LFE may suffer.

My recommendation to you is to trust YPAO if you are not an advanced HTer. If you don't like the sound that you get. Just turn off PEQ under Sound, Equalizer menu. If you do turn it off, be sure to use an SPL meter to check and if necessary correct the speaker channel levels.

I set PEQ = OFF. The soundstage is much wider than with PEQ on. Furthermore, I always inspect the PEQ settings made for each speaker after running YPAO, that is, the PEQ center frequency and level. YPAO sets some frequencies to +5.0 to +6.0 db in the higher range of frequencies, commonly in the 4 KHz to 8 KHz frequency range. That is way to excessive and means YPAO settings are suspect. I have 6 years experience in sound mixing. During my training, my instructor always had a rule of thumb at the discotheque were I used to work: Avoid boosting any EQ band or PEQ frequencies more than +3.0 db, unless the bandwidth is narrow (Q = 1.0 for example). He said it's always preferable to cut rather than boost. He meant it too. If I boosted a frequency band as much as 5 db to 6 db, say Q = 0.1 - 0.5, I better had a pretty darn good technical reason for it. The problem with YPAO, it doesn't give the Q when it applies +6 db boost centered on 6.3 KHz. If the Q = 0.5 or lower, for example, you can bet that you are asking for trouble because your amplifier especially a Yamaha AVR amp is not likely to have enough clean power for such a 6 db boost centered at 6.3 KHz with low Q (wide bandwidth) without distorting or clipping.

Last edited by Yeha-Noha; 08-13-2011 at 05:20 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 06:43 AM   #4
Johnny Vinyl Johnny Vinyl is offline
Moderator
 
Johnny Vinyl's Avatar
 
Jul 2007
At the crossroad of Analogue Dr & 2CH Ave
18
187
1
3
8
Default

^^ Impressive!
John - I love the smell of vinyl in the morning!
My personal motto: "Live Life! Leave A Legacy!"
I reserve the right to post as a member. When I post as a Moderator I will select a color depending on my mood!
AudioQuest - Genesis - Marantz Reference - Mogami - Nitty Gritty - Nottingham - Ortofon - Rega - Valab/King
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 07:16 AM   #5
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
Power Member
 
Yeha-Noha's Avatar
 
Jan 2008
43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
EQ - I have never liked the EQ YPAO applies as I find it kills too much detail. I use GEQ and my own settings.
I concur with you about YPAO's PEQ. However, I never found a 7 band EQ like GEQ to be very useful nor adequate for my needs. As far as I'm concerned it's just a toy. I would need 1/3 octave EQ before I could do what YPAO was supposed to be doing or better still a real parametric EQ with adjustable Q.

I leave YPAO PEQ off in my RX-V663. It's far better without it than with it in my HT room which is too challenging for YPAO to do a good job. The highs distort when each speaker is boosted 6 db at around 6.3 KHz or 8.0 KHz. I tried the NATURAL PEQ emphasis too. The high's were still boosted just as bad, actually, if not worse.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 07:40 AM   #6
kiwi2 kiwi2 is offline
Member
 
Jun 2011
New Zealand
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
I leave YPAO PEQ off in my RX-V663. It's far better without it than with it in my HT room which is too challenging for YPAO to do a good job.
Very true. I haven't been able to find on my 1065 what YPAO PEQ sets so I don't trust using it. (I don't want to be using a EQ with a +6 db anywhere!)

I have done a lot of measuring and experimenting with speaker placement and room treatments to get a somewhat flat room.

I just use GEQ to take a touch off the top end on the surrounds to help match the fronts.

How do you see what PEQ is doing..??
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 12:59 PM   #7
Biggen Biggen is offline
Member
 
Aug 2011
Default

Wow! This is more information I ever thought I would get on this question! I really appreciate the informative replies. Im out of town until tomorrow afternoon so instead of replying from my phone ill reply tomorrow to the above posts. That will also give me some time to "digest" this info...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 03:33 PM   #8
rpatt rpatt is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
rpatt's Avatar
 
Aug 2008
55
3
Default

I'll definitely experiment with the PEQ off. Thanks for the very informative post.
Mancave Man

Two Channel
Yamaha: CX-1000, B-6, T-85, CDX-5000, YP-D8, Cambridge Audio: 640P, Oppo: BDP-83, Klipsch: Klipschorns Modded with ALK Universal Crossovers & Crites CT-125 Tweeters.
Home Theater
Panasonic: PT-AE7000U, Elite: TE106HW2, Samsung: LN52B750, Marantz: AV8801, Parasound: 5250 V.2, Oppo: BDP-93, Toshiba: HD-A35, JBL Synthesis: PT800 (4), PC600, PS1400 (2), HTPS400 (4)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2011, 09:31 PM   #9
Biggen Biggen is offline
Member
 
Aug 2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
What YPAO is supposed to do in theory is equalize your speakers so their response in the listening room has a FLAT, NATURAL, or FRONT emphasis. FLAT is the recommended PEQ curve to choose. However it assumes the speakers are all of nearly equal quality. NATURAL is chosen if the FLAT PEQ curve sounds rather harsh in the highs. Thus it de-emphasizes the highs a little. FRONT is generally not recommended. It does no PEQ on the front left and right speakers. Rather it attempts to match the other speakers to the room response of the front speakers. If you have high end fronts teamed with lower quality center and surrounds, then you may want to choose FRONT. However, best results would be obtained by matching quality of the rest of your speakers to the front L and R making sure they are from the same manufacturer and same series.

I don't consider YPAO as being on par with Audyssey unless you have the higher end Yamaha AVRs that allow you to use multiple positions for calibration.
I'm glad you gave me an explanation of what the PEQ actually is. Yes, when YPAO runs, it sets my speakers to "FLAT". The default is OFF (or THROUGH as Yamaha calls it). I haven't checked to see what exactly FLAT is doing for me though. I see in the manual there is an option to copy FLAT > MANUAL. That way one can start with the YPAO PEQ setting and then manually tweak them to your liking. I will go do that here in a bit and see exactly what the AVR is doing with each speaker and the frequencies of those speakers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post

Ok, here #1 and #2 are very important. Regarding #1, YPAO is prone to setting the wrong speaker size.. The correct size is Small for home theater installations. If it sets a speaker to Large, it is very suspicious. Just set it to Small. It's too bad that neither Audyssey nor YPAO default to Small during auto setup. Because of my irregular shaped room, YPAO will set my surround speakers to Large and my towers to Small! Regarding #2,do correct any wiring polarity issues found by YPAO. Sometimes, but rarely, it may make an error. If after checking the polarity of the speaker cable with respect to the speaker input terminals and you know it's correct despite what YPAO reports, you probably can ignore it. YPAO's setting in that case should be fine assuming that the wiring polarity inside the speaker was correctly done at the factory.
No problem with it on these two points. YPAO correctly sets all my speakers to small and finds no wiring issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
#3: You said the distance is incorrect? Perhaps not. What you measure may disagree with YPAO's measurement. Why? Because of phase shift. Ideally, you want your sub to be in phase with each speaker. That is not an easy task to do by yourself during a manual setup. However, one or more speakers may not be in phase with your sub in the range of frequencies they have in common below or above the crossover frequency. Thus there can be a phase shift. YPAO can correct for that by calculating what distance that/those speaker(s) need to be in order to maintain phase coherency with the subwoofer. It may just compensate for it by setting the subwoofer to a shorter or greater distance as well. Unless you have the technical knowledge and can make measurements on your own to show that those are in error, your safest bet is just to accept the distances set by YPAO.
Ok, I went back in and re-ran YPAO and let it set the distances again for me and I didn't touch them this time. It sets my L/C/R sound bar about 1.5 feet too far and my sub about 1-2 feet too far as well. But I'll take your advice and just let it be. If it is compensating for phase shift then I have no business changing those distances...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
#4. Using an SPL meter set all your speakers, except for the sub, to SPL = 75 db. Be sure your volume control is set to 0.0 db too before you do so. Leave the sub level, for now, at the level set by YPAO. Now, listen to your favorite music or watch your favorite movie. If the bass seems too be lacking foundation, increase the subwoofer level a little bit at a time in your AVR's speaker level settings (don't mess with the level on your sub) until it sounds natural and balanced with the rest of your speakers. If it is overwhelming, like you have a hard time understanding dialogue from your center channel, decrease the subwoofer level a little bit at a time until it sounds natural, balanced, and with good dialogue clarity. A common mistake made by many is setting the subwoofer level too high. YPAO in my setup is conservative and creates a hedge or margin of safety by setting the subwoofer level a bit low. However, sometimes it may set it too high. Unless you have the know how and the proper equipment, you ears are probably going to be the best judge for setting the subwoofer level. You can't use the test tones in your AVR even though one is labelled subwoofer. Your RS SPL meter isn't accurate enough in the bass frequencies to set the subwoofer level correctly using those test tones.
Ok I used my RS SPL meter and got all the speakers to 75db. I tried to use some test tones (found in one of Big Daddys stickies) to level out the sub but my meter doesn't seem to want to pick up all the freq. I'll just tune it "by ear" and see what makes me the happiest. From all the reading I have been doing, the sub level seems to be the most subjective of all the levels and it is really up to the orginal listener.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
#5. PEQ is set by the user before YPAO is run. At least in my AVR, the RX-V663, that's the case. I'm sure yours is done that way too. I have already explained about PEQ, FLAT, NATURAL, and FRONT. See above.
Nope, not with mine. The default setting is "Through" (which is OFF) and then YPAO set it to FLAT for me after running the configuration. I turned it back to THROUGH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
#6. Yes agreed, more than likely 110 Hz is too high. You may want to consider 80 Hz if your soundbar and surrounds have frequency repsonse down to 70 Hx. Although I can go down to 60 Hz because my surrounds are +/- 3db at 50 Hz, an 80 Hz crossover gives better dialogue clarity in my center channel. At least it is in my HT setup. No, your sub isn't likely to distort up to 120 Hz which is the set standard upper limit for the LFE channel. If your sub can't handle up to 120 Hz reasonablely distortion free, get another sub or your LFE may suffer.
Ok, I bumped it down to 80hz and will play a movie tonight and see if I like it (or can even tell a difference) from the 100hz-110hz it had it set at. FYI, the specs on the Millenia 20 Trio are as follows:

Low-Frequency Extension - 80 Hz (DIN)
On Axis Freq Response - ±2 dB from 120 Hz - 20 kHz

So, by the specs, is 80Hz too low of a crossover? Is that the bottom end this bar will play? Is that what Low-Freq Extension really means?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
My recommendation to you is to trust YPAO if you are not an advanced HTer. If you don't like the sound that you get. Just turn off PEQ under Sound, Equalizer menu. If you do turn it off, be sure to use an SPL meter to check and if necessary correct the speaker channel levels.
Agreed. Here is what I did:

1. Re-ran YPAO
2. Immediately turned off PEQ and set crossover at 80hz
3. Re-set all speaker levels to 0 and began using my SPL with test tones to set new levels to 75db
4. Left subwoofer at 0.0db in AVR and set back knob to approx 40%
5. Left all distances untouched as set by YPAO

The wife and I will watch a movie later tonight and I'll keep an "ear out" on how the bass sounds (too much or too little). I'll also try to remember to see how the bar sounds with the crossover set to 80hz.

I really appreciate your help and detailed reply. Its nice to know there are members here that really know their stuff!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2011, 09:58 PM   #10
kiwi2 kiwi2 is offline
Member
 
Jun 2011
New Zealand
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen View Post
I see in the manual there is an option to copy FLAT > MANUAL. That way one can start with the YPAO PEQ setting and then manually tweak them to your liking.
Damn, my 1065 doesn't have that ability.




Quote:
So, by the specs, is 80Hz too low of a crossover?
Yeah, if your soundbar is 120hz-20khz, then YPAO's 110hz x-over was in the ballpark.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2011, 01:55 AM   #11
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
Moderator
 
Big Daddy's Avatar
 
Jan 2008
Southern California
79
122
1
Default

I explained this in the Audyssey thread. I'll repeat it here.

Auto calibration programs such as Audyssey or YPAO do not measure speaker/subwoofer distances. They actually measure the signal delay. For the main speakers this delay calculation usually results in actual physical distances. But, subwoofers have filters in them that delay the signal more. So, this is equivalent to the subwoofer being further away. It is quite normal to see longer distances reported for the subwoofer.

This delay consist of:
  1. The time it takes for sound to travel in the air to the microphone.
  2. The electrical delay in the signal inside the subwoofer:
    1. Any type of filter in the sub introduces delay.
    2. Any type of DSP processing in the subwoofer introduces delay.
    3. The interaction of the woofer and the port in in a subwoofer can also cause problems. This interaction can also cause polarity reversal warnings.
Because of these delays, it is quite normal to see longer distances reported for the subwoofer. You should leave it as the auto calibration program found it.

When the reported distance is much shorter than the physical distance, then you should worry. Something else has caused that. The most likely cause is vibrations that travel to the microphone through a solid surface such as the floor or the sofa/seat. Sound travels faster in solids than it does in air and this can cause the short readings. The only alternative you have is to try is to make sure that the microphone is isolated from any vibrating surfaces. Avoid placing it on the edge of the listening sofa. Also, move the subwoofer to a different location or isolate it from the vibrations by using a riser.

To summarize, the subwoofer distance calculation is more complex than simply using a measuring tape. Subwoofers have filters in them that add delay to the signal and the auto calibration program compensates for that. That is why you should leave the distances as the auto calibration program found them.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2011, 02:14 AM   #12
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
Moderator
 
Big Daddy's Avatar
 
Jan 2008
Southern California
79
122
1
Default

The other issue is the equalization target curves. Yamaha calls them FLAT, NATURAL, or FRONT emphasis. Audyssey calls them AUDYSSEY FLAT, AUDYSSEY, and BYPASS L/R (or Front) setting. The following is the explanation that Audyssey gives. I believe it is relevant to Yamaha receivers and YPAO.

Quote:
Contrary to popular belief, a target curve that is flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz is not always the one that will produce the correct sound. There are several reasons for this. One has to do with the translation required from a large movie theater to a smaller home listening room. The other reason has to do with the fact that loudspeakers are much more directional at high frequencies than they are at low frequencies. This means that the balance of direct and room sound is very different at the high and low ends of the frequency spectrum.

The Audyssey Reference target curve setting makes the appropriate correction at high frequencies to alleviate this problem. A slight roll-off is introduced that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound.

The Audyssey Flat setting uses the MultEQ filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended.

Some manufacturers have decided to implement a Bypass L/R (or Front) setting. This uses the MultEQ filters that were calculated for the entire listening area, but it does not apply any filtering to the front left and right loudspeakers. The average measured response from the front left and right loudspeakers is used as the target curve for the remaining loudspeakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat as is the case for all the settings described above. This is not a setting recommended by Audyssey.

In some products, there is a Manual EQ setting. This is a traditional parametric equalizer that does not use the MultEQ filters or the Audyssey measurement process at all.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2011, 11:03 AM   #13
rpatt rpatt is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
rpatt's Avatar
 
Aug 2008
55
3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
I explained this in the Audyssey thread. I'll repeat it here.

Auto calibration programs such as Audyssey or YPAO do not measure speaker/subwoofer distances. They actually measure the signal delay. For the main speakers this delay calculation usually results in actual physical distances. But, subwoofers have filters in them that delay the signal more. So, this is equivalent to the subwoofer being further away. It is quite normal to see longer distances reported for the subwoofer.

This delay consist of:
  1. The time it takes for sound to travel in the air to the microphone.
  2. The electrical delay in the signal inside the subwoofer:
    1. Any type of filter in the sub introduces delay.
    2. Any type of DSP processing in the subwoofer introduces delay.
    3. The interaction of the woofer and the port in in a subwoofer can also cause problems. This interaction can also cause polarity reversal warnings.
Because of these delays, it is quite normal to see longer distances reported for the subwoofer. You should leave it as the auto calibration program found it.

When the reported distance is much shorter than the physical distance, then you should worry. Something else has caused that. The most likely cause is vibrations that travel to the microphone through a solid surface such as the floor or the sofa/seat. Sound travels faster in solids than it does in air and this can cause the short readings. The only alternative you have is to try is to make sure that the microphone is isolated from any vibrating surfaces. Avoid placing it on the edge of the listening sofa. Also, move the subwoofer to a different location or isolate it from the vibrations by using a riser.

To summarize, the subwoofer distance calculation is more complex than simply using a measuring tape. Subwoofers have filters in them that add delay to the signal and the auto calibration program compensates for that. That is why you should leave the distances as the auto calibration program found them.
I wonder how accurate this will be with multiple subs?
Mancave Man

Two Channel
Yamaha: CX-1000, B-6, T-85, CDX-5000, YP-D8, Cambridge Audio: 640P, Oppo: BDP-83, Klipsch: Klipschorns Modded with ALK Universal Crossovers & Crites CT-125 Tweeters.
Home Theater
Panasonic: PT-AE7000U, Elite: TE106HW2, Samsung: LN52B750, Marantz: AV8801, Parasound: 5250 V.2, Oppo: BDP-93, Toshiba: HD-A35, JBL Synthesis: PT800 (4), PC600, PS1400 (2), HTPS400 (4)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2011, 07:01 PM   #14
srrndhound srrndhound is offline
Active Member
 
srrndhound's Avatar
 
Sep 2008
Oregon
13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeha-Noha View Post
I would need 1/3 octave EQ before I could do what YPAO was supposed to be doing or better still a real parametric EQ with adjustable Q.


Quote:
I leave YPAO PEQ off in my RX-V663. It's far better without it than with it in my HT room which is too challenging for YPAO to do a good job.
Do any of the Yamaha AVRs allow user access to adjusting all the PEQ parameters, Q, gain, frequency? Maybe only the top-o-line model?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2011, 07:32 PM   #15
hometheatergeek hometheatergeek is online now
Blu-ray Archduke
 
hometheatergeek's Avatar
 
Feb 2008
Near Atlanta GA
46
171
49
2
Default

Biggen,

Which Yamaha model do you own? I have the RX-V1800. It allows me, prior to runing YPAO to select the FRONT, FLAT, NATURAL, or OFF selection. The RX-V1800 has 4 memory buttons on the remote which can store the settings of the AVR. So I typically run YPAO 4 times, pre-selecting one of the settings then storing the results under each memory. This allows you to change on the fly which settings sounds the best for a particluar song or movie you are listening to.

You mention that the Sub trim ended up at -10dB when you had the volume on the sub at 50% gain. YPAO does the same as Audyssey when the gain is to high on the sub. It tries to compensate so the sub level matches the speaker levels. You should set the gain on the sub lower...to say 40% and rerun YPAO...then check the trim level of the sub in the AVR to see if it is closer to 0dB. This is the optimal setting for subwoofers. It allows the low level signal to have the largest dynamic swings present in today's movies. And it will also allows you a greater range to either raise or lower the trim settings in the AVR to your liking.
AL
“If at first you don't succeed, try something easier.”

Sharp Quattron LC-70LE735U Oppo BDP-103 Pioneer Elite CLD-79 Darbeevision DVP-5000
Denon AVR-4311ci, DR-M10HX Monster HTS-5000 Outlaw Model 750
Klipsch Forte II, RC-62 II, IW-100, KSB 1.1
Velodyne VA 1012 Hsu Research ULS-15 Triple Drive
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2011, 11:55 PM   #16
Biggen Biggen is offline
Member
 
Aug 2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srrndhound View Post

Do any of the Yamaha AVRs allow user access to adjusting all the PEQ parameters, Q, gain, frequency? Maybe only the top-o-line model?
Mine does. I have the option to copy FLAT > MANUAL. Then in MANUAL I can tweak the settings to my hearts contents. Of course, I have no idea what I am doing so I don't mess with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek

Which Yamaha model do you own? I have the RX-V1800. It allows me, prior to runing YPAO to select the FRONT, FLAT, NATURAL, or OFF selection. The RX-V1800 has 4 memory buttons on the remote which can store the settings of the AVR. So I typically run YPAO 4 times, pre-selecting one of the settings then storing the results under each memory. This allows you to change on the fly which settings sounds the best for a particluar song or movie you are listening to.

You mention that the Sub trim ended up at -10dB when you had the volume on the sub at 50% gain. YPAO does the same as Audyssey when the gain is to high on the sub. It tries to compensate so the sub level matches the speaker levels. You should set the gain on the sub lower...to say 40% and rerun YPAO...then check the trim level of the sub in the AVR to see if it is closer to 0dB. This is the optimal setting for subwoofers. It allows the low level signal to have the largest dynamic swings present in today's movies. And it will also allows you a greater range to either raise or lower the trim settings in the AVR to your liking.
I have the RX-V867. I can find no setting like you describe. Unless I am just overlooking it...

I ended up setting the gain on the sub to ~40% and keeping the trim level at 0.0db in the AVr. I just finished watching Master & Commander and I was VERY happy with the bass. It was deep and strong during the fighting sequences but not overwhelming so I couldn't hear other sounds. I think I just keep it set there.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2011, 10:00 PM   #17
hometheatergeek hometheatergeek is online now
Blu-ray Archduke
 
hometheatergeek's Avatar
 
Feb 2008
Near Atlanta GA
46
171
49
2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen View Post
I have the RX-V867. I can find no setting like you describe. Unless I am just overlooking it...

I ended up setting the gain on the sub to ~40% and keeping the trim level at 0.0db in the AVr. I just finished watching Master & Commander and I was VERY happy with the bass. It was deep and strong during the fighting sequences but not overwhelming so I couldn't hear other sounds. I think I just keep it set there.
You are not overlooking it. That feature is not available on your AVR. Looks like we hit on a winning combination. A properly setup subwoofer system should do exactly what you posted. Enjoy your system and if you have more questions, shoot me a PM.
AL
“If at first you don't succeed, try something easier.”

Sharp Quattron LC-70LE735U Oppo BDP-103 Pioneer Elite CLD-79 Darbeevision DVP-5000
Denon AVR-4311ci, DR-M10HX Monster HTS-5000 Outlaw Model 750
Klipsch Forte II, RC-62 II, IW-100, KSB 1.1
Velodyne VA 1012 Hsu Research ULS-15 Triple Drive
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2011, 01:32 AM   #18
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
Moderator
 
Big Daddy's Avatar
 
Jan 2008
Southern California
79
122
1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpatt View Post
I wonder how accurate this will be with multiple subs?
The external subwoofer equalizer from Audyssey and SVS can handle two subwoofers independently. Also Audyssey's newest technology called SUB EQ HT claims to handle two subwoofers. This technology is available as part of the Audyssey's auto calibration programs on the newest receivers/pre-pros from Onkyo/Integra and Denon. I don't have any experience with this.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/sub-eq-ht
Quote:
SUB EQ HT: Bass in small rooms is notoriously difficult to get right. Bass lovers will try almost anything to enhance bass output. Many believe adding a second subwoofer will solve the problem – this is true in part, but only if the second subwoofer is properly integrated, not simply added on to an existing set-up. Audyssey Sub EQ HT ensures that the level and delay for each subwoofer is correct before integrating them into the equalization solution.
I am not aware of any auto calibration program that can handle four subwoofers independently. However, Audyssey recommends that you should try to place the multiple subwoofers in positions that are eqi-distant from the primary listening position.

The Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer equalizer cannot handle two subwoofers independently, but with the addition of the MIC-5 option, it can take measurements from 5 positions.

Quote:
The MIC-5 Bass Management Kit is designed to integrate with the Velodyne Digital Drive® and SPL™-R EQ software for users looking to optimize their bass response for more than one spot in a room. In the past, with a single microphone, the user needed to either optimize the bass for a single position, or move the mic manually among various spots and optimize the EQ curve accordingly. With the MIC-5, from one to five microphones can be used in different listening positions with the EQ software seeing an average of all the locations together as a single response curve.

HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2011, 03:39 AM   #19
rpatt rpatt is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
rpatt's Avatar
 
Aug 2008
55
3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
The external subwoofer equalizer from Audyssey and SVS can handle two subwoofers independently. Also Audyssey's newest technology called SUB EQ HT claims to handle two subwoofers. This technology is available as part of the Audyssey's auto calibration programs on the newest receivers/pre-pros from Onkyo/Integra and Denon. I don't have any experience with this.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/sub-eq-ht


I am not aware of any auto calibration program that can handle four subwoofers independently. However, Audyssey recommends that you should try to place the multiple subwoofers in positions that are eqi-distant from the primary listening position.

The Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer equalizer cannot handle two subwoofers independently, but with the addition of the MIC-5 option, it can take measurements from 5 positions.
Speaking of the SMS-1. Would the mic work for full range? I'm thinking about setting up a REW system and would like not having to buy a separate mic.
Mancave Man

Two Channel
Yamaha: CX-1000, B-6, T-85, CDX-5000, YP-D8, Cambridge Audio: 640P, Oppo: BDP-83, Klipsch: Klipschorns Modded with ALK Universal Crossovers & Crites CT-125 Tweeters.
Home Theater
Panasonic: PT-AE7000U, Elite: TE106HW2, Samsung: LN52B750, Marantz: AV8801, Parasound: 5250 V.2, Oppo: BDP-93, Toshiba: HD-A35, JBL Synthesis: PT800 (4), PC600, PS1400 (2), HTPS400 (4)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2011, 04:08 AM   #20
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
Moderator
 
Big Daddy's Avatar
 
Jan 2008
Southern California
79
122
1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpatt View Post
Speaking of the SMS-1. Would the mic work for full range? I'm thinking about setting up a REW system and would like not having to buy a separate mic.
The Velodyne SMS-1 microphone looks identical to the Behringer ECM8000 Measurement Condenser Microphone. I have no idea if they have modified it and limited its bandwidth.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-ECM8.../dp/B000HT4RSA
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=248-625




Post #2 of the http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/15...ubwoofers.html thread has information about everything you need to use REW.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
  Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Audio Theory and Discussion


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:35 PM.