Sharp Elite vs Pioneer Kuro Elite

[Wingman1977]

Originally Posted by secondhand1

What you're doing is picking nits and not understanding what deceptive marketing is. This most certainly isn't it. You said it yourself, "...to point out its quality standard." That's what's going on here. It's not deceptive and it's not meant to devalue your Pioneer Elite.

Would it make you feel better if they called it the Sharp Quite Possibly Best Display On The Market Right Now?

That would be a lie.

[secondhand1]

Originally Posted by Wingman1977

That would be a lie.

How so?

I'm by no means saying it's better than the VT50 or even the ST50, especially with the cyan issue - which I thought had been addressed via an firmware update? - but it is most definitely in the team picture. And as far as LCDs go, it's the tops. It's terribly cost prohibitive, but it's the best LCD you can get.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by secondhand1

What you're doing is picking nits and not understanding what deceptive marketing is. This most certainly isn't it. You said it yourself, "...to point out its quality standard." That's what's going on here. It's not deceptive and it's not meant to devalue your Pioneer Elite.

Would it make you feel better if they called it the Sharp Quite Possibly Best Display On The Market Right Now?

I'm totally unconcerned about anything that will "devalue" my Kuro. I'm not going to sell it. I personally don't know but a couple of people who even know the difference between it, and an Insignia or Vizio unit. And I sure didn't buy it to impress anyone on an Internet venue.

We're talking about the industry as a whole, and how things are sold. As a measured calculation, a marketing department is tasked with every factor - design, name, customer base, price point, comparison with other offerings, everything. My feeling is that the more straightforward the offering, the better the deal appears, since I have no idea about the quality of the innards of this device.

Since this device was developed with the assistance of personnel who also developed the Pioneer Elite, it's fair to include some form of the name; I don't have a problem with that. But just to call it an Elite is going at this thing sideways, and I don't think it's a good idea.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by saprano

Has that size been confirmed for the second gen sharps?

It's been mentioned, by Sharp, but not confirmed.

[nremdn]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I'm totally unconcerned about anything that will "devalue" my Kuro. I'm not going to sell it. I personally don't know but a couple of people who even know the difference between it, and an Insignia or Vizio unit. And I sure didn't buy it to impress anyone on an Internet venue.

Wow, this thread should end on this post. For every five people on here that are impressed that someone owns a Kuro, there are 5,000 out in the real world that will see it as nothing any better than an Insignia or Vizio. If you spend your money to impress others than you are totally in the wrong hobby.

I also agree with you about calling it an Elite. The group of people that recognize the meaning of the Elite name will not be tricked into buying a panel just because it says Elite on it. The typical Elite owner will do tons of research before buying any panel. On the other side of that coin, the typical consumer looking for a display doesn't have the slightest clue what an Elite is or the reputation behind the name. So I am confused by the Elite badging and what they were hoping to accomplish with that. Especially considering it's not even the same technology.

[HD 335]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Good post, and I agree with most of it except the above. I really feel that a manufacturer needs to identify itself with its product line, especially when it comes to naming conventions. In this case, Sharp is using the name not to identify its technology, but to point out its quality standard. It's an elective choice, and they paid for the privelege, but in a not so subtle way, it's deceptive.

The missed opportunity is in elevating the Sharp brand with this machine. It deserves a differentiator, and no tricks in branding. It's not an Elite - it's a Sharp Elite, and should have some further appelation to be discrete.

It's more than semantics, and it's certainly not brand snobbishness on my part. I prefer specificity, and it appears that the snobbishness they seek in getting owners to call it an Elite, thus invoking a name that has a history, is a hand-jive way to endow snobbishness on the unit. To me, that's a waste of time.

I just wish the bean counters were a bit more up-front, and I bet I could get some Sharp engineers to agree with me.

Originally Posted by nremdn

I also agree with you about calling it an Elite. The group of people that recognize the meaning of the Elite name will not be tricked into buying a panel just because it says Elite on it. The typical Elite owner will do tons of research before buying any panel. On the other side of that coin, the typical consumer looking for a display doesn't have the slightest clue what an Elite is or the reputation behind the name. So I am confused by the Elite badging and what they were hoping to accomplish with that. Especially considering it's not even the same technology.

I definitely agree with you that a manufacturer needs to identify itself with its product line. At the same time, we all know Sharp is not exactly known to make high end electronics but they are striving to make this move. Their recent new large television sets are good sets set at a competitive price. One of the most difficult moves for a company is redefining brand identity. Sharp did take the "easy" way out and basically bought the Elite name, although their marketing division did state Pioneer and Sharp engineers worked in together on this project. I think you would agree it's easier to sell a unit which as you put it, having a name that invokes history. Yes, enthusiasts and magazine writers would continue to praise the Sharp set if it did not have the Elite name but the initial attraction would undoubtedly be less to the general public.

On the frontline of marketing, it seems Sharp is attempting to quickly gain traction into the high end market. It would take far more time and a substantially better product line across the board to change their brand identity in a short amount of time. By collaborating with Pioneer and using their name, they have achieved a fast way into the market. Yes it's a "gimmick" and somewhat crude, but isn't that what marketing gurus do? It's possible as they begin to win market share, they may decide to gradually move off the Elite name and rebrand their own high end line.

I only say this from first hand experience seeing a client attempt to change its branding. I've worked directly with Old Navy for many years and a few years ago, they attempted to re-brand in order to compete against the H&Ms and other cost competitive "hip" clothing retailers. They changed their logo, rolled out pilot stores that were sleek and updated but all this failed, spending tens of million dollars. What the executives neglected to realize is their base customers and virtually all people think of Old Navy as a brand that sells everyday basic clothing and not trendy styles. This alienated their core customer base reducing sales for a brief period. I understand I can not completely compare Old Navy to Sharp, but the root marketing philosophy is the same... it is very difficult change once you have anchored your market. Not impossible... just takes money and/or marketing gimmicks.

[Wingman1977]

Originally Posted by secondhand1

How so?

I'm by no means saying it's better than the VT50 or even the ST50, especially with the cyan issue - which I thought had been addressed via an firmware update? - but it is most definitely in the team picture. And as far as LCDs go, it's the tops. It's terribly cost prohibitive, but it's the best LCD you can get.

The only thing the elite has over the VT50 is black levels and contrast. I've seen them both side by side and they were both calibrated by Kevin Miller and D-Nice (this was in May at the Value Electronics flat panel shootout that Robert Zohn held).

[HD 335]

Originally Posted by Wingman1977

The only thing the elite has over the VT50 is black levels and contrast.

Don't forget about the extra 5"

[kesando]

Originally Posted by nremdn

Wow, this thread should end on this post. For every five people on here that are impressed that someone owns a Kuro, there are 5,000 out in the real world that will see it as nothing any better than an Insignia or Vizio. If you spend your money to impress others than you are totally in the wrong hobby.

I also agree with you about calling it an Elite. The group of people that recognize the meaning of the Elite name will not be tricked into buying a panel just because it says Elite on it. The typical Elite owner will do tons of research before buying any panel. On the other side of that coin, the typical consumer looking for a display doesn't have the slightest clue what an Elite is or the reputation behind the name. So I am confused by the Elite badging and what they were hoping to accomplish with that. Especially considering it's not even the same technology.

The typical consumer would not consider spending $5,000- $7,000 grand on a display either. If anything wouldn't they instead flock to an Insignia or Vizio? Again, if sharp were to use the Kuro name then perhaps I would agree.

[kesando]

Originally Posted by Wingman1977

The only thing the elite has over the VT50 is black levels and contrast. I've seen them both side by side and they were both calibrated by Kevin Miller and D-Nice (this was in May at the Value Electronics flat panel shootout that Robert Zohn held).

To each his own I guess as I have been to Value Electronics myself. I was more bothered by the Image retention and flickering on the VT50 comapared to the cyan issue on the Elite LCD. They should figure out a way to compare how the newest TV's handle upscaling or deinterlacing at the next shootout. I found that the VT50 did a poor job with the cable/direct TV source at VE. The Kuro and Elite LCD do a much better job IMO. I will admit that the price of the VT50 is very attractive compared to the Elite, as is the motion handling when viewed side by side.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by kesando

The typical consumer would not consider spending $5,000- $7,000 grand on a display either. If anything wouldn't they instead flock to an Insignia or Vizio? Again, if sharp were to use the Kuro name then perhaps I would agree.

Very few people spend half that amount on a television, and don't watch a lot of high end Blu content, either. You don't need it to watch network television, and the source material is so weak it almost doesn't matter what you watch on most televisions.

These are flagship machines. But think of any other artifact - a car, a military ship or aircraft, a lawnmower, a kitchen appliance - that has a reputation for quality and performance, and try to picture this name game. It would meet with hoots of derision, and rightly so.

Even if it's from the same company, this creates issues. GM tried it with the Impala and Malibu names for cars totally different from their classic models, and aficiandos are still filled with contempt.

Accepting the Elite name, for a buyer ready to spend that much money, only happens if they are buying into the name game. That will always leave a bad taste, as that kind of expenditure is based on technical excellence, not an "as good as" marketing scheme. I think Sharp may take this into consideration going forward. At least I hope they do.

[Wingman1977]

Originally Posted by kesando

To each his own I guess as I have been to Value Electronics myself. I was more bothered by the Image retention and flickering on the VT50 comapared to the cyan issue on the Elite LCD. They should figure out a way to compare how the newest TV's handle upscaling or deinterlacing at the next shootout. I found that the VT50 did a poor job with the cable/direct TV source at VE. The Kuro and Elite LCD do a much better job IMO. I will admit that the price of the VT50 is very attractive compared to the Elite, as is the motion handling when viewed side by side.

The image flickering is only in 96Hz mode (D-Nice actually took time to speak about it). Not to mention the colors on the VT50 looked way better on the elite. Image retention is really a moot point.

[kesando]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Very few people spend half that amount on a television, and don't watch a lot of high end Blu content, either. You don't need it to watch network television, and the source material is so weak it almost doesn't matter what you watch on most televisions.

These are flagship machines. But think of any other artifact - a car, a military ship or aircraft, a lawnmower, a kitchen appliance - that has a reputation for quality and performance, and try to picture this name game. It would meet with hoots of derision, and rightly so.

Even if it's from the same company, this creates issues. GM tried it with the Impala and Malibu names for cars totally different from their classic models, and aficiandos are still filled with contempt.

Accepting the Elite name, for a buyer ready to spend that much money, only happens if they are buying into the name game. That will always leave a bad taste, as that kind of expenditure is based on technical excellence, not an "as good as" marketing scheme. I think Sharp may take this into consideration going forward. At least I hope they do.

Or perhaps they are accepting it for what it is, a top tier LCD with great overall picture quality. I am more concerned about Sharp (or any other company) continuing to produce high quality displays and less about what they choose to name them. I could see if Sharp was simply rebranding or attaching a familiar name to a sub-par product (what GM did for many years) bit this simply isn't the case.

[kesando]

Originally Posted by Wingman1977

The image flickering is only in 96Hz mode (D-Nice actually took time to speak about it). Not to mention the colors on the VT50 looked way better on the elite. Image retention is really a moot point.

And what was said about its poor deinterlacing of 1080i at the shootout? If I depended solely on the results of the shootout without seeing for myself, I would have made the wrong choice IMO. I actually prefer the color and contrast of the Elite over the VT50 and thats in a darkened room. Once light is introduced, the Elite does even better. The color issue as confirmed by Kevin Miller when I spoke to him in person at VE is not noticable with real word material though I won't argue with the color charts. D-Nice felt otherwise if I'm not mistaken. IR isn't a moot point and differed from the 2 VT50s I veiwed at VE (both had it to some degree). The Kuro would still be my plasma of choice

[kesando]

Originally Posted by HD 335

It's always interesting to read high end owners comments who are aficionados, regardless whether it's audio/video/furniture/cars.. etc. There is definitely a lot of passion.

Not trying to fuel the debate, but here's my take on the Pioneer Elite vs the Elite. I will refer to the Sharp panel as the Elite since as kesando pointed out, it is the correct name. Anyone who is doing research and seriously considering buying one will know Sharp produces it.

If you already own a Pioneer Elite and do not care for a bigger size and/or 3D... there really is no reason to buy the Elite even if the prices were lower. The image quality and color reproduction is still at the top of flat panel televisions. My opinion after comparing my friend's Pioneer Elite 151 (we actually brought his TV over to my place) and my Elite PRO70X5FD is that the new Elite has ever so slightly better image quality at the expense of a larger color accuracy compared to the Pioneer. When I refer to image quality, my eyes tell me that the new Elite has better whites and is brighter overall while still retaining excellent deep blacks for improved contrast. For me, the image quality is more important that having perfect color accuracy. I have to stress that the color accuracy and cyan issue does not bother me and all my family and friends who have seen my tv has never once said, the color looks off. Of course, there will be some that are more sensitive so only a good demo can tell you if it bothers you.

The Pioneer Elite does have much better motion handling, as some would put it... organic. I've never owned a plasma, so I'm a bit more used to LCD motion. Plasma users will typically have a harder time transitioning over to the motion of LCD/LEDs. However the new Elite is the best LCD/LED set I have ever seen when it comes to motion handling. CNET has a generic setting for color and motion handling, and although many owners seem to default to it, their settings use a low setting for motion which my eyes sees a very slight soap opera effect. I have mine completely turned off and enjoy it. There are instances of the dirty screen effect, although I have yet to see an instance where it bothers me, and I honestly don't even see it. I believe I saw it once while the camera was panning across the outfield during a baseball game.

I do feel the new Elite is the best 70" flat panel you can get out there now, although choices are limited basically to other lower end Sharp models. If money were no object and you wanted the best LED 70" TV, the Elite is the one to buy. That being said, the current retail price is absurd and not worth the price of admission in my opinion for those who do not have a tree in their backyard growing money. I paid significantly less than retail, under $5k for my set and that was my limit. I honestly wanted to pay no more than $4300 but the retailer offered an excellent financing option, threw in 2 more pairs of 3D glasses, getting another $120 in points for future purchases and knowing that I bought it from an authorized brick and mortal dealer guaranteeing that Sharp will warranty my set for 2 years... it was a no brainer. I almost bought a 65" VT30 during that time which was only $2000 at the time but I really wanted a 70" since the viewing distance I have really needed something larger than a 65".

Well said

[HD 335]

Originally Posted by kesando

Well said

Thanks! Nice to see another 70" owner here. I do wish I had an 80" but there was no way I would be willing to spend the money on it and I just am not satisfied with the Sharp 80". They (along with then 70"s) are great for general viewing, but the black levels can't compare reducing the amount of overall contrast in the image. I couldn't take that step back after getting accustomed to the Elite's black level.

[kesando]

Originally Posted by HD 335

Thanks! Nice to see another 70" owner here. I do wish I had an 80" but there was no way I would be willing to spend the money on it and I just am not satisfied with the Sharp 80". They (along with then 70"s) are great for general viewing, but the black levels can't compare reducing the amount of overall contrast in the image. I couldn't take that step back after getting accustomed to the Elite's black level.

I agree! While not perfect, the Elite is a great all around set and is much better than the lower end Sharp models. While I would have loved to spend less, I know it was worth the price every time I power it on. Knowing what you paid for your 70", you must be VERY happy with it.